440 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Chaos Gate wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
All I'll say is that it must really burn you and some of the others that ME2 has won more GOTY awards than any other game in history, including pretty much every RPG game of  the year award. It must be hard to think the rest of the world is insane.

Considering that games journalism has not held a shred of credibility since, oh, 2002 or so, then no, it doesn't burn me at all.

ME2 was a very poor offering, and it's clear as punch.

No worries, I know how you feel.  I too think I'm the only sane person and the rest of the world is mad.

[exskeeny]

I'm still amazed at the amount of people who think mass effect 2 was a bit poo but still endlessly trawl the mass effect 2 discussion thread.



I didn't enjoy Oblivion therefore i put it squarely out of my mind and have hardly ever thought about it since I last played it. many, many moons ago.



I'm not saying you can't, just......... well, why bother.

[Schneidend]

Gatt9 wrote...

I strongly disagree.

An RPG is about taking on the Role fo the Character and all of his skills and abilities.  Which requires that your personal skill is irrelevant,  your character's skill is relevant.  My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

Mass Effect 2 disregards this.  Your Character's skill is irrelevant,  your "To hit" is determined solely by your ability to punch the DM so to speak.  This makes the representation on screen not a Role,  but an Avatar for the Player.  Which is a defining characteristic of a shooter.

So, then, the Madden football simulators are RPGs because a player's stats influence his ability to tackle other players and catch balls. You essentially roll a "to hit" for these things. You generally succeed if you threw a pass that could reasonably be caught or attempted to tackle at the right time, but there is always a chance you'll fail simply because you "rolled" poorly or a player is just too big or moving too fast to take down (determined by stats).

This is further highlighted by the fact that Paragon/Villian decisions are factors of pure skill in pressing a sudden random button,  not by any representation of your character's personality.  "Press a button to do the right thing!". 

No, that's how Paragon/Renegade interrupts work, not how Paragon/Renegade decisions work. Your Shepard's ability to perform interrupts is not influenced by your stats, but your ability to Persuade or Intimidate is determined by your ethics scores.

[spernus]

Chaos Gate wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
All I'll say is that it must really burn you and some of the others that ME2 has won more GOTY awards than any other game in history, including pretty much every RPG game of  the year award. It must be hard to think the rest of the world is insane.

Considering that games journalism has not held a shred of credibility since, oh, 2002 or so, then no, it doesn't burn me at all.

ME2 was a very poor offering, and it's clear as punch.

Neogaf is the biggest hardcore gaming forum and Mass effect 2 also won the game of the year award,in front of Red dead redemption. It's not just the gaming press that's been giving the game plenty of award.

I'm just wondering how far you are willing to go to discredit the game?

[Zeus_Deus]

Angmir wrote...

lol no new millenium strted on the first january of 2001, so therafter decade ended on 31 of december 2010. But this is minor thing.

Well I seem to remember the millenium celebrations on new years eve 1999.

Plus when we refer to a decade, say the 80's for instance, we generally don't mean to include the year 1990 cos that would be stupid.

Angmir wrote...

What is more important i'd like to reffer to the main part of this Thread, ie. ME2 beeing the best RPG of the past decade.

In my opinion ME2 is hardly even RPG, I'd call it action-adventure game. So titling ME 2 the best RPG of the past decade is somewhat confusing.
It doesnt really change the fakt that ME2 was an awesome game, defietly one of the best EVER released. I cant with full responibility say that it is the Best game of all times, as it is dificult to compere difrent genres, and I played but a few titles on my own (compared to the overal number).
I can say however that ME2 was the game that made me enjoy the games anew, and was the one game I felt most appealing to my emotions.

It moved me the most of all conventional games I ever played, I can say it was the best gaming experience in my life !

It's a third person shooter with minimal RPG-elements.

The only game I can think of that I would put into the same genre/category is Fallout 3, that's because they're both action-rpgs.....with guns.

Each game has their strong points and I love both games.

In ME2 the cinematics, cutscenes, story telling, player interactions etc is done better, whereas in Fallout 3 it's non-existant.

However, in Fallout 3 the gameplay/combat is just so much more expansive.

For a start, there are a lot more variety of weapons and armour in FO3 - with stats as well, so you can decide which combination best suits your style of play. ME2 is dumbed-down is this aspect.

Combat can happen anywhere, not just in designated areas like in ME2.

Also, the maps are much larger and not as linear allowing you to use a variety of tactics, whereas ME2 limits you to proceeding along a set path whilst taking cover and popping out to shoot/use powers along the way.

[Zeus_Deus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Zeus_Deus wrote...

What about Dragon Age? - that basically has a similar system to KoTOR, but much more evolved/improved.

Fair point, true.  ME2 is better than DAO because DAO sticks to the old fails:  Looting, a messy inventory, and slow gameplay.  That's why that junk appears to be gone in DA2!  DA2 versus ME2... now we've got a wrastlin' match on our hands.

I seem to remember doing a fair bit of "looting" in ME2.
In fact ME2 has something worse than looting - SCANNING!
That's the ultimate fail, not just in the tedious way it's implemented in game but the whole idea of it - the fact that you can deplete over a dozen planets of their entire mineral resources and still not have enough to do all the research is just plain stupid.

I had no problem with the inventory in DA:O and didn't find it messy at all - In fact I found it quite tidy and easily manageable.

Unless DA2 switches from the dice-rolling mechanics and does an Oblivion on the gameplay aspect, then it's always going to be slow compared to shooters.

[Mr.House]

When I think RPG, I think FO, TES, old Bioware games, DAO ext, ME2 is a very light rpg and does not deserve to be on that list at all, let alone be number one.

[Gleym]

Ulzeraj wrote...

ToB is 2001 but its an expansion of a 2000 game. ME only had the chance to get this one because Torment is 1999 imo. They were clever to wait 10 years ahead of Torment to decide whats the best RPG of the decade. Earlier attempts resulted in missing personel... probably caged by the Lady of Pain.

Heh, yeah. I still think Planescape Torment should be counted. I mean, it came out in DECEMBER of 1999. In most other parts of the world, eve, it was already 2000 when the game hit the shelves in those countries. Sure, it didn't have the most amazing inventory system, or the greatest combat of all time, but it had what so many RPGs this later half of the decade have been lacking: A good story that's genuinely interesting, involving and makes you care.

The fact alone that all of the dialogue is written in a sort of second-person perspective story fashion is amazing, especially when you get an innovative, unique and interesting conversation out of merely talking to some random commoner on the street, complete with an in-depth description of his attire, even down to possible health problems he might have.

Quite franky, Planescape: Torment spoiled me. No story I've ever encountered has ever been as good as it, and after the Widescreen Mod was released and the resolution was increased for newer engines and computers? Well, let's just say that once you've upped the resolution and made the graphics clearer.. it's a work of art.

[Blastback]

The best RPG hybrid, without a doubt. but I can't classify ME2 as a true "pure" RPG, to many mechanics were stripped out.

[AlanC9]

Schneidend wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

I strongly disagree.

An RPG is about taking on the Role fo the Character and all of his skills and abilities.  Which requires that your personal skill is irrelevant,  your character's skill is relevant.  My "To hit" is determined,  not by my ability to punch my DM,  but by a reflection of my character's skill with his weapon as a die roll.

Mass Effect 2 disregards this.  Your Character's skill is irrelevant,  your "To hit" is determined solely by your ability to punch the DM so to speak.  This makes the representation on screen not a Role,  but an Avatar for the Player.  Which is a defining characteristic of a shooter.

So, then, the Madden football simulators are RPGs because a player's stats influence his ability to tackle other players and catch balls. You essentially roll a "to hit" for these things. You generally succeed if you threw a pass that could reasonably be caught or attempted to tackle at the right time, but there is always a chance you'll fail simply because you "rolled" poorly or a player is just too big or moving too fast to take down (determined by stats).

Well, the Madden games could have RPG-like "combat" without necessarily being RPGs, depending on what other factors go into making something an RPG. I'm assuming that Gatt9 isn't saying that this is the only criterion for an RPG, just that it's a necessary one. In general, I think it's a good practice to interpret other people's posts in a way that makes them sound sensible.

But the criterion doesn't really work -- or rather, to the extent that it does work, it's arbitrary. An RPG character has a bunch of abilities. Some are inherent to the game's structure, some are on the character sheet, and some come from the player. For instance, traditionally an RPG lets the character's tactical command abilities come from the player. It isn't necessarily so. One could imagine something like DAO where the Tactics system controls all party members without any player input whatsoever. As the PC levels up his tactics skill the party members get more Tactics slots active and are therefore more efficient in combat. 

Assuming Gatt9's standard to be correct, this would be more of an RPG than a game where the player himself has to learn and implement the tactical combat system, since the party leader's stats would control the party's tactics. Fine with me. But then how much of this quality does a game need to be an RPG? There's no principled answer to that as far as I can tell.

We can say that the player needs control over combat tactics because the game wouldn't be any fun without that control, sure. But that isn't anything to do with the game being an RPG.

[MassEffect762]

Mr.House wrote...

When I think RPG, I think FO, TES, old Bioware games, DAO ext, ME2 is a very light rpg and does not deserve to be on that list at all, let alone be number one.

What he said, don't forget your roots Bioware and stay the heck out the way EA.

[Gibb_Shepard]

If critics keep on giving out praises like this then Mass Effect 3 will be ME 2.1.

[White_Buffalo94]

I wouldn't say best RPG, but it is definitely one of the games I devote hours of my life to every day since the release, in between my DA:O breaks. One of the best games of the decade I would agree, but Origins had more RPG element to it and although I've never played BG2, I hear how amazing it is in its story, so yeah...

[JayhartRIC]

What's that music?

[GodWood]

ME2 was a fun game but it was hardly an RPG, let alone the 'best RPG'.

[Jorina Leto]

LOL. ME2 is not an RPG. It's a third person shooter with a few RPG elements.

[AlanC9]

I should have taken a position on the actual topic. ME2's an RPG, sure, but it isn't as good as DAO.

[Phaedon]

I love how everyone is not justifying the 'ME2 is not an RPG'.



ME2 is a hybrid. Also, every time I hear to someone say that Deus Ex is a 'shooter with a few RPG elements', I urge myself not to headdesk.

[Therefore_I_Am]

Gleym wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...

ToB is 2001 but its an expansion of a 2000 game. ME only had the chance to get this one because Torment is 1999 imo. They were clever to wait 10 years ahead of Torment to decide whats the best RPG of the decade. Earlier attempts resulted in missing personel... probably caged by the Lady of Pain.

Heh, yeah. I still think Planescape Torment should be counted. I mean, it came out in DECEMBER of 1999. In most other parts of the world, eve, it was already 2000 when the game hit the shelves in those countries. Sure, it didn't have the most amazing inventory system, or the greatest combat of all time, but it had what so many RPGs this later half of the decade have been lacking: A good story that's genuinely interesting, involving and makes you care.

The fact alone that all of the dialogue is written in a sort of second-person perspective story fashion is amazing, especially when you get an innovative, unique and interesting conversation out of merely talking to some random commoner on the street, complete with an in-depth description of his attire, even down to possible health problems he might have.

Quite franky, Planescape: Torment spoiled me. No story I've ever encountered has ever been as good as it, and after the Widescreen Mod was released and the resolution was increased for newer engines and computers? Well, let's just say that once you've upped the resolution and made the graphics clearer.. it's a work of art.

Planescape was a very unusual game for me. It was like a gritty, gothic,  rated-R version of Alice in Wonderland (just replace alice with the nameless one).

[Gleym]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Planescape was a very unusual game for me. It was like a gritty, gothic,  rated-R version of Alice in Wonderland (just replace alice with the nameless one).

You say it like that's some kind of bad thing. lol

[FenixFire]

Considering Diablo 2 is ranked 3rd, which is actually a hack & slash game, makes this list quite a farce. Diablo 2 was fun, but in no way an RPG whatsoever.

[Lumikki]

FenixFire wrote...

Considering Diablo 2 is ranked 3rd, which is actually a hack & slash game, makes this list quite a farce. Diablo 2 was fun, but in no way an RPG whatsoever.

That is the real problem. Not is Diablo RPG or not, but what people think RPG is. If people can't even agree what RPG is, then how to hell we can say what is best RPG.

[Crackseed]

Saying Diablo 1 or 2 is not an RPG is rather silly. While it doesn't have character development, the sheer amount of character building, skills and stats still places it in RPG territory, though it's very obvious "RPG lite" and more about the action. It does go back to the fundamental argument in this thread about "What is an RPG?" - what boggles my brain is users like Chaos and Gatt who apparently have nothing but hate for the Mass Effect series yet somehow seem to keep coming to these boards. You hate the game - this is accepted and understood because like everyone else, you have a right to your opinion. But constantly chucking it out there like we, the people who DO enjoy the game and thus are here on the boards for that purpose, want to keep hearing it is just...mind boggling.

I loathe any Bethesda RPG aside from FO3/NV [and even then I miss the original Fallouts way more] - I've never even visited their boards because why should I subject them to me saying "This game sucks - you're all doofuses for liking it haha" - I dislike it and thus it's not worth my time to expend energy hating on it.

Whether you like it or not - based on the board spectrum of what defines an RPG, ME1 and 2 are RPGs. They may be hybrids that have shed some aspects of RPG to develop their experience, but trying to pass it off as a failure given the success and general support behind it only makes you look like you have some weird obsession with hating for the sake of hating. Or like your pride has gotten the better of you which brings you here to the boards for no reason other then creating dissent.

I respect your opinion - I don't respect your constant need to keep saying the same silly thing over and over again. Move on. Enjoy and play the games you feel are worth your time. And leave us "deluded" types to discuss and gush over our love of ME2

Modifié par crackseed, 12 février 2011 - 01:34 .

[Chaos Gate]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Old RPGs are dead.  ME2 is the best RPG of the last ten years because it =fixed= RPGs. 

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

To
see the steps ME2 to improve RPGs as steps =back= then what you really
miss are the boring loot fests, the spreadsheet equipment min/maxing,
and the dull days.  Most people aren't after that.

Right.
So they "fixed" RPGs by getting rid of all the RPG elements and
converting the game into a mindless shooter with no story? That makes
sense.

And is "looting" a swear word these days, is it? Why? What's wrong with looting? I love stumbling across new and mysterious items,
or defeating bosses specifically because I know there might be a chance of uncovering a powerful weapon. It gives me a thrill. Are gamers so
attention deficit disordered these days that they are too lazy to look
for and inspect a few items? If so, it's no wonder ME2 was so dumbed down.

crackseed wrote...

...what boggles my brain is users like Chaos and Gatt who apparently have nothing but hate for the Mass Effect series yet somehow seem to keep coming to these boards. You hate the game - this is accepted and understood because like everyone else, you have a right to your opinion. But constantly chucking it out there like we, the people who DO enjoy the game and thus are here on the boards for that purpose, want to keep hearing it is just...mind boggling.

I respect your opinion, but I don't think I've ever labelled someone here deluded. At least, I hope not. But ME2 is a Bioware product, this is the Bioware forum, and I come here to vent. If you are allowed to incessantly spout your praise, then I should be allowed to perpetually raise my ire. I hope I don't sound trollish when I say this.

It's been roughly one year since I played ME2, and the bitterness has failed to diminish. I saw an epic of a game disembowelled and repackaged into something very juvenile, something that barely touched the greatness of the first game, and all for the want of more money. I won't go as far as saying that ME2 was a sellout effort, but it certainly felt like it. I can't help but feel betrayed by Bioware. The first game was a masterpiece, even with its flaws.

And anyway, if the protests of a few could achieve changes in the sequel (changes that I strongly disagree with, as it ripped the heart and soul out of the franchise), then hopefully the ME2 detractors on this board can do the same with the third offering.

Personally, all I want for ME3 is for it to feel less shallow and not be aimed squarely at the Call of Duty crowd.

(Oh, and the Mako. And Ash).

[Schneidend]

Suffice to say, all this "this isn't an RPG" talk is ridiculous. There can never be enough loot or stats or skill trees to satisfy these individuals, apparently. Diablo 2 not an RPG? Evidently then my Staggering Claymore Of The Bear must not have an attack speed, a randomly rolled damage range, a bonus to Strength, or a randomly rolled chance of knocking an enemy back. Certainly, then, my Barbarian lacks a Strength or Dexterity score, and a hit points track.



Likewise, I must have been playing a different game than ME2, since it was apparently not an RPG like it said on the box, or on Steam, metacritic, IGN, etc. A game that isn't an RPG couldn't have shoulder armor that increased my melee damage stat by +25%. A game that isn't an RPG wouldn't have a passive skill with scaling bonuses to weapon damage, hit points, or power cooldowns that I earn through the investment of skill points that I gain by LEVELING UP. I wonder, then, what did I invest well over 100 hours of time into, if not Mass Effect 2, and why did the clerk give me a box labeled Mass Effect 2?