998 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

Noilly Prat wrote...

I think it's hilarious that there are still so many people freaking out that this is a sign Mass Effect 3 will be Hollywood action movie fare, or that it's going to be devoid of synthesizer.  A few points:

1.  The first two games, in all honesty, were Hollywood action movie fare, to some extent.

2.  Mansell is a professional.  You don't have to like the finished product, but it's completely silly to assume that he would just throw together a generic film soundtrack without paying any mind to the source material.  That's not how professional composers for films or games work.

3.  Before he was writing film music, Mansell had a band called Pop Will Eat Itself, which played rock music with some industrial and synthpop influences.  They toured with Nine Inch Nails, along with other groups.

4.  Mansell's (I believe) first film score was for the movie Pi, and, if I recall correctly, it was very synth-heavy.

5.  Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think (for what reason, I cannot begin to fathom), Mansell is NOT a predominantly orchestral composer.  As I said, Pi was rather synth-based; The Wrestler used a lot of sparse electric guitar; the Requiem for a Dream music (and several of his other works with the Kronos Quartet) was mostly written for string quartet mixed with some more typical rock instrumentation; some of his other stuff is quite piano-based; etc.  The bombastic, orchestrated version of his Requiem for a Dream piece that everybody seems to know was not the original version, and it wasn't even arranged by Mansell.

6.  He has already scored a science fiction film, Moon, and his music for this film was perfect.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Jack Wall, who did a great job with the first two games.  But I've seen a lot of people commenting on Mansell's music who clearly have no idea what they're talking about.  This isn't a bad thing, people, it's a good thing.  If you really want to complain about it, at least make sure you have something on which to base your opinions.

Very nice post, sums up my thoughts. I didn't know that they toured with Nine Inch Nails, though, that's a bit ironic,isn't it?

Modifié par Phaedon, 10 février 2011 - 06:16 .

[Ulzeraj]

Phaedon wrote...

StElmo wrote...
I loved ME2's OST. LOVE LOVE LOVED IT, combat music was an amazing fusion of orchestral and synth. It was perfect. ME1 had better atmospheric music, but ME2 had some great combat music and GREAT build. Actually this is the thing I loved most about ME2, was BUILD. Illusive Man, Suicide Mission, Overlord combat, Shadow Broker combat, Normandy SR2 - all had amazing BUILD, LIFT and CRESCENDO. Beautiful work. 

I misjudged your taste, then, sorry. 
I agree with Capeo, the electronic music we'll see in ME3 will probably be like this:


Not the tone necessarily, but the structure, the conce...and now I am not making any sense.

Maybe he'll do some research and preserve some cyberpunkish tones. I don't expect a professional ignoring all that background and just start from scratch.

[Payne by name]

“Instructmental/Orchestral/etc music is rare, or at least it has been until for some months ago, in video games.”
 
I’d have to disagree with that. Whether you like the game or not Halo has a very distinctive orchestral sound with it’s Gregorian chant etc. That’s coming up to 10 years old.
 
Go back further and I can remember the score that Michael Giacchino put together for the first Medal of Honour game. Likewise I can even remember how distinctive the ‘sound’ was for Syndicate Wars and that’s even older.
 
Gears of War had a very orchestral feel and that’s older than ME1 and the last OST for GOW2 was composed by Steve Jablonsky (he of Transformers fame).
 
“So, according to you, change=dumbing down?”
 
Dumbing down as a form of dilution. That is diluting it from it’s very 70’s synth theming origins whose ‘sound’ jumped out at you and was distinctive not only to the game but certain moments & settings within the game to what is a more mainstream generic and background orchestral fare.
 
I mean who can forget how ME1 loaded up with Vigil and what tone that set across the whole game. Similarly how it’s trailers ended with the Mass Effect theme as the word Mass Effect appeared.
 
ME2 loads up with Suicide Mission, which although good could be the menu music from a host of EA or Activision games. It doesn’t speak to me of space and sci-fi. Likewise one of the main trailers were scored to music from Two Steps from Hell. Again they are good tunes but they still have a more general sound that if you didn’t know could be being used to promote any film or game.

[Capeo]

vaultboy101 wrote...

So they fired Jack Wall (musical god) and put this Brit guy in. Bioware you have destroyed Mass Effect 3 for me entirely. Mass Effect music was as integral as the graphics and atmosphere/dialog.

Thank you Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk for ruining the greatest gaming series on Earth and devastating a Mass Effect fan. ME3 is still a day one buy for me but I am will be turning the music down very low when I play through.

I hope you don't screw up my beloved Dragon Age 2 as well.

PS @Jack Wall

You are the greatest composer of modern music ever. Up there with Jerry Goldsmith and John Williams as far as sci fi goes in my opinion. Your music IS Mass Effect and always will be. I am a classical aficianado with my favorites being JS Bach and Richard Wagner. You equal them in my opinion.

Bioware obviously had to follow Activision and get some big boy like Hans Zimmer or something. Shame that Activision outsell EA 10:1 but hey what can you do. EA and Bioware need a CEO change PERIOD like AMD.

Bolded to emphasize what may be the most far reaching hyperbole I've yet to encounter on these forums.

But hey, turn down the soundtrack if you must.  The rest of us will be enjoying what has the potential to be a landmark in gaming scores.

[Crackseed]

Which is why we can be thankful he has no say in ME's development Capeo I wish these boards had an ignore option though

[Zulu_DFA]

Well, if Clint Mansell is some kind of hybrid of Clint Eastwood with Nigel Mansell, he can't be too bad.

[Jonp382]

Jack Wall wrote...

Dear People Who Love Mass Effect - 
So...maybe it's time to actually say something?

Working on the Mass Effect series was epic. It was mind-bending, soul-coughing, astral-plane traveling delicious loveliness - all the way. The games themselves are works of art. I wouldn't change one note of it that myself, Sam, David, Richard or Jimmy wrote. As you may have noticed by now, I am not returning to score the final game. The reasons are much too complicated to explain here, but suffice to say that the people at BioWare and I are still friends and we all really still like each other a lot. More importantly, the score for ME3 will be great and even more important than that, the game will liikely be (being BioWare and all) super duper fantastic. 
Clint Mansell is cool. Enjoy.
Oh and thanks to everyone for the kind words here and over the years. For those of you who didn't say nice things, that's cool too. I'm still searching for the perfect chord. If you guys see it laying around, let me know, ok?
See you in another game in another crazy universe!

-Jack

This makes me very sad. Your work is mind blowing. You and your crew have a great style. Hopefully Clint Mansell can live up to your guys work. And I hope you come back for future games.

[Phaedon]

Payne by name wrote...
I’d have to disagree with that. Whether you like the game or not Halo has a very distinctive orchestral sound with it’s Gregorian chant etc. That’s coming up to 10 years old.

Gears of War had a very orchestral feel and that’s older than ME1 and the last OST for GOW2 was composed by Steve Jablonsky (he of Transformers fame).
 

Two console shooter franchises =/= majority.
 

Go back further and I can remember the score that Michael Giacchino put together for the first Medal of Honour game. Likewise I can even remember how distinctive the ‘sound’ was for Syndicate Wars and that’s even older.

These are opinions, nothing to comment on here.
 

Dumbing down as a form of dilution. That is diluting it from it’s very 70’s synth theming origins whose ‘sound’ jumped out at you and was distinctive not only to the game but certain moments & settings within the game to what is a more mainstream generic and background orchestral fare.

Stop right there.

That is diluting it from it’s very 70’s synth theming origins whose ‘sound’ jumped out at you

Apart from clear taste,
1)Epic music jumps at you by definition,no? To me, ME1's music was significantly calmer and didn't jump at you. Sure, the beat was nice, but it never touched me.
2)I don't see the dilution there, and you don't justify it. To me, it looks like you just don't like change.

but certain moments & settings within the game to what is a more mainstream generic and background orchestral fare.

Not only is orchestral music rare, so certainly not mainstream, but I can remember sci-fi games from as old as well...the 90s? That use electronic music. In fact, electronic music is the standard (therefore mainstream?) music for sci-fi games.
 

I mean who can forget how ME1 loaded up with Vigil and what tone that set across the whole game. Similarly how it’s trailers ended with the Mass Effect theme as the word Mass Effect appeared.

Who can forget how ME2 loaded up with Suicide Mission and what tone that set across the whole game etc.
 

ME2 loads up with Suicide Mission, which although good could be the menu music from a host of EA or Activision games.

Come on...

It doesn’t speak to me of space and sci-fi.

Might have something to do with electronic music being mainstream, then?  ME2's OST yells 'I am an epic soundtrack preparing you for an epic and fast-paced game!'

Likewise one of the main trailers were scored to music from Two Steps from Hell. Again they are good tunes but they still have a more general sound that if you didn’t know could be being used to promote any film or game.

At this point I have no comment to make. But I'll make a 'conclusion'.

Your main point, is this: Instructmental and orchestral music are too mainstream and generic. The problem is, there are far more games with electronic music. Your own argument could be turned against you.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Noilly Prat wrote...

I think it's hilarious that there are still so many people freaking out that this is a sign Mass Effect 3 will be Hollywood action movie fare, or that it's going to be devoid of synthesizer.  A few points:

1.  The first two games, in all honesty, were Hollywood action movie fare, to some extent.

2.  Mansell is a professional.  You don't have to like the finished product, but it's completely silly to assume that he would just throw together a generic film soundtrack without paying any mind to the source material.  That's not how professional composers for films or games work.

3.  Before he was writing film music, Mansell had a band called Pop Will Eat Itself, which played rock music with some industrial and synthpop influences.  They toured with Nine Inch Nails, along with other groups.

4.  Mansell's (I believe) first film score was for the movie Pi, and, if I recall correctly, it was very synth-heavy.

5.  Contrary to what a lot of people seem to think (for what reason, I cannot begin to fathom), Mansell is NOT a predominantly orchestral composer.  As I said, Pi was rather synth-based; The Wrestler used a lot of sparse electric guitar; the Requiem for a Dream music (and several of his other works with the Kronos Quartet) was mostly written for string quartet mixed with some more typical rock instrumentation; some of his other stuff is quite piano-based; etc.  The bombastic, orchestrated version of his Requiem for a Dream piece that everybody seems to know was not the original version, and it wasn't even arranged by Mansell.

6.  He has already scored a science fiction film, Moon, and his music for this film was perfect.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever to Jack Wall, who did a great job with the first two games.  But I've seen a lot of people commenting on Mansell's music who clearly have no idea what they're talking about.  This isn't a bad thing, people, it's a good thing.  If you really want to complain about it, at least make sure you have something on which to base your opinions.

Thank you.  Much agreed...and also Lux Aeterna in and of itself is very melancholic in construction, Requiem for A Tower is the more bombastic, hollywoodesque.   Mansell doesn't really seem to do big Hollywood.  He's an excellent choice.

That being said I will miss the previous composers (Wall et al), they were really awesome and their music brought me hours of enjoyment.  You guys really are fantastic artists! 

Modifié par Village Idiot, 10 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[Silmane]

Can someone explain to me what the hell instructmental music is? I'm hoping you guys get the same red squiggly lines under it like I do, because I think you mean instrumental.



I'm serious when I ask this.

[Phaedon]

Silmane wrote...

Can someone explain to me what the hell instructmental music is? I'm hoping you guys get the same red squiggly lines under it like I do, because I think you mean instrumental.

I'm serious when I ask this.

I actually don't. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 10 février 2011 - 06:47 .

[Tamahome560]

Maybe slight off topic but I had a wow moment just a second ago. Went on the Lux Aeterna on youtube and saw that the highest liked comment is about ME3

[Silmane]

Phaedon wrote...

Silmane wrote...

Can someone explain to me what the hell instructmental music is? I'm hoping you guys get the same red squiggly lines under it like I do, because I think you mean instrumental.

I'm serious when I ask this.

I actually don't. 

Been googling instructmental and it leads me to instrumental, so yeah, I'm not confused anymore. 

[Phaedon]

Tamahome560 wrote...

Maybe slight off topic but I had a wow moment just a second ago. Went on the Lux Aeterna on youtube and saw that the highest liked comment is about ME3

With 156 likes... that certainly makes me smile.

Silmane wrote...
Been googling instructmental and it leads me to instrumental, so yeah, I'm not confused anymore. 

Yeah, sorry for the random typos, I type too fast. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Phaedon, 10 février 2011 - 06:53 .

[Revna Shan]

Too bad there couldn't be a collaborative effort that kept Wall of Sound in the fold. Will always wonder what could have been.

[Tamahome560]

Phaedon wrote...

Tamahome560 wrote...

Maybe slight off topic but I had a wow moment just a second ago. Went on the Lux Aeterna on youtube and saw that the highest liked comment is about ME3

With 156 likes... that certainly makes me smile.

A lot of videos with his music are now filled with ME3 comments. :happy: 

[Phaedon]

Revna Shan wrote...

Too bad there couldn't be a collaborative effort that kept Wall of Sound in the fold. Will always wonder what could have been.

The universe would implode from awesomeness, so consider ourselves lucky. 
Kidding aside, I agree.

[Silmane]

Phaedon wrote...

Tamahome560 wrote...

Maybe slight off topic but I had a wow moment just a second ago. Went on the Lux Aeterna on youtube and saw that the highest liked comment is about ME3

With 156 likes... that certainly makes me smile.

Silmane wrote...
Been googling instructmental and it leads me to instrumental, so yeah, I'm not confused anymore. 

Yeah, sorry for the random typos, I type too fast. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

No biggie. Just thought I was looking at some kinda new subgenre of music. Like we need another one, rite? 

A lot of people link Moon for Clint's work, but Welcome to Tahoe(exclude first minute) from Smokin Aces sounds more ME than anything so far. 12 hours ago, I was ready to break everything in my house, but I've fired up the Clint tracks to ease some of this pain. I hate change. I don't want Jack and Sam to go. 

I know AwesomeName and a couple others will swoop in and reaffirm that Clint is gonna be amazing, but all I ask of Clint is to treat this like a real project. I'm obviously not the only one who feels this way or we wouldn't have 20+ pages. 

Just crossing my fingers. 

[Tamahome560]

Yeah a collaborative effort would be so much better than just having Clint Mansell. But I'm sure it will be great regardless!



Thank you Wall of Sound for the awesome musical score's! The music you created for the Mass Effect universe was brilliant and I will never forget what you did for the franchise.

[Payne by name]

“Instructmental/Orchestral/etc music is rare, or at least it has been until for some months ago, in video games.”
 
Your statement above claims that instrumental/orchestral music is rare and has only started being used in the last few months.
 
I cite an example of one of the biggest game franchises ever that goes back nearly 10 years and has an iconic instrumental soundtrack and somehow that doesn’t count?
 
There’s really no point trying to discuss anything with you when you are clearly so ready to put your hands over your ears, close your eyes and start repeating “I’m not listening, I’m not listening”.
 

[Gorescream]

Terror_K wrote...

I just hope this didn't happen because EA/BioWare simply wanted a "big name composer" more as a publicity stunt to garner attention. That's the cynic in my speaking I know, but the circumstances surrounding Jack's leaving being incredibly vague just strikes me as... odd. It could very well be personal reasons, which is fair enough, and I can understand why he may not want to elaborate further if that's the case. But it could also be because he was simply encouraged to step aside or something because they wanted a "big name" or he didn't fit in with where they wanted to take Mass Effect muscially for the third game, etc.

I dunno... I have to admit to always fearing the worst and looking at things more from the negative side of things than the positive one, but that's just due to experience.

Agreed, I really want to know why he isn't doing it, Did they just wanted more customers because of the big name? Different Paycheck? Whatever the reason is, I can't let it to rest like that, it tears me apart like that, I've also seen this before with other games, and they usually horribly end up wrong.

Jacksam' IS Mass Effect

[Phaedon]

Payne by name wrote...

“Instructmental/Orchestral/etc music is rare, or at least it has been until for some months ago, in video games.”
 
Your statement above claims that instrumental/orchestral music is rare and has only started being used in the last few months.

That is incorrect. Orchestral music was not mainstream, at least until 'now'. A trend which I am unsure whether or not it will die, but I certainly hope that it will not.
 

I cite an example of one of the biggest game franchises ever that goes back nearly 10 years and has an iconic instrumental soundtrack and somehow that doesn’t count?

A single franchise is not the majority and therefore does not make this genre mainstream? 
 

There’s really no point trying to discuss anything with you when you are clearly so ready to put your hands over your ears, close your eyes and start repeating “I’m not listening, I’m not listening”.
 

No rebuttal coming from me, I'll just remind you that you claimed that using orchestral and instrumental music means dumbing down the product. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 10 février 2011 - 07:43 .

[century_killa]

[quote]Jack Wall wrote...

Dear People Who Love Mass Effect - 
So...maybe it's time to actually say something?

Working on the Mass Effect series was epic. It was mind-bending, soul-coughing, astral-plane traveling delicious loveliness - all the way. The games themselves are works of art. I wouldn't change one note of it that myself, Sam, David, Richard or Jimmy wrote. As you may have noticed by now, I am not returning to score the final game. The reasons are much too complicated to explain here, but suffice to say that the people at BioWare and I are still friends and we all really still like each other a lot. More importantly, the score for ME3 will be great and even more important than that, the game will liikely be (being BioWare and all) super duper fantastic. 
Clint Mansell is cool. Enjoy.
Oh and thanks to everyone for the kind words here and over the years. For those of you who didn't say nice things, that's cool too. I'm still searching for the perfect chord. If you guys see it laying around, let me know, ok?
See you in another game in another crazy universe!

-Jack




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Reply]

Jack your music was amazing, inspiring as well epic in every
way possible, when it came to Mass Effect 1. Vigil is one of my favorites by
the way (Thanks to you & Sam Hulick) because it made me man cry a bit the first time
I heard it… lol

As many Fans alike we thank you for the hard
work you and your team put into ME1 & 2. Best regards from your pal
CenturyKing (Xbox gamer tag)
~I’m Commander Shepard and you are my favorite Composer on
the Citadel! 

Modifié par century_killa, 10 février 2011 - 07:22 .

[vaultboy101]

Tamahome560 wrote...

Yeah a collaborative effort would be so much better than just having Clint Mansell. But I'm sure it will be great regardless!

Thank you Wall of Sound for the awesome musical score's! The music you created for the Mass Effect universe was brilliant and I will never forget what you did for the franchise.

Looks like Bioware and EA forgot what Jack Wall/ Sam Hulick and the team did for the Mass Effect Franchise....

I love Jack Wall's work. That music can move a man to tears. I hope Jack and the team score for other studios who will appreciate how amazing they are.

Modifié par vaultboy101, 10 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[Lorcan0c]

We'll all miss you and your amazing work.



I'm so glad I got to attend one of your video games live concerts when you visited here in Ireland. Meeting you was awesome and so was the concert. Thanks again for the autograph!