268 réponses à ce sujet

[Zacarius2]

One thing that struck me as odd is that the Council, new or old, does not seem to be acting on its on beliefs. No matter what happens at the end of Mass Effect 1, the Council in Mass Effect 2 says that Sovereign was a geth warship, built by the geth. Now from a military-industrial point of view this means that the geth have both the design and ability to create more. Yet the Council seems to take the construction of Sovereign as a fluk. A one off, never to happen again event. Even though they admit to having no idea what is happening behind the Persius Veil and have not done anything to reduce the geth's production abiities.

Our own history has show that when a new or dadically redesigned weapon is created that massive effort is put into recreating that weapon for your side. When the HMS Dreadnought was unveiled in 1906 all production of non-big gun battleships stopped. All previous designs were thrown out and all ships that were currecntly being build were redesigned to the Dreadnought pattern. Now mind you HMS Dreadnought was one ship that had never fired a shot at that time. Simply by existing it changed navel warfare. This Dreadnought Effect is missing form the ME universe. Every race's military should be trying to construct Sovereign class warships because their precieved enemies also have the supposed ability to construct them.

 Now there are a few easily explained answers for this ommision.
1. Shepard is an operative. Most operatives are not informed of their militaries navel build strategies.
2. The destruction of Sovereign gave the militaries of the galaxy the false belief that they can "paper-cut" to death these new geth warships.
3. The higher-ups in the political-military organizations of the galaxy actually beileve part of what Shepard was saying, but not the rest of it. That Sovereign was a Reaper, but that he was the only one.
4. The construction of Sovereign class warships takes time. Organics unlike geth can not work nonstop, so only the basic construction has begun. (possibly what was shown in Kaji's greybox)

Now ignoring those, since I made that argument for you. Why would the Council ignore its own retoric ( that Sovereign was geth built) when it comes to their own military plans? Where is the Dreadnought Effect? Shouldn't they all be hurriedly building their own? Because if the geth can destoy the number of ships they did with one Sovereign class ship what happens when they show up next time with two or three?

[AkiKishi]

We know from the various upgrades technology has taken a leap since ME. Small ships with big guns seem to be more effective overall as well. No Dreadnaght could do what SR-2 did, so unless it can take fire. Upgraded armour and shields upscaled may well make that possible, you are investing a lot into an unknown.

These upgrades come from Quarian,Assaria, Alliance and Taurian. It's logical therefore that they are working on things and just not telling Shepard.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 10 février 2011 - 09:04 .

[Zing Freelancer]

As you said, you are simply an operative working with Cerberus. Council is simply hiding the truth from you. I am sure they have laboratories and factories working non stop on producing Sovereign alike weapons.

Because if they dont, we will be royally screwed in Mass Effect 3.

[Pro_Consul]

We always have TIM's new army to fall back on, should all else fail us.

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 10 février 2011 - 09:51 .

[adam_grif]

5. That the council believes that the Reapers are real, believes that there are still more of them out there, but does not publicly acknowledge this and wouldn't let Shepard into the loop because of his Cerberus connection.



Sovereign wasn't actually that impressive in size terms, and its guns are actually only tiny fractions of of its (two kilometer) Length. From visuals it looks like Sovereigns main guns are less than 100 meters long, at the tip of each tentacle. Assuming that Reapers can damage other Reapers, this means that the council should be able to - in theory - build Reaper strength guns on cruiser chassis without too much of a problem. Assuming power generation is a concern they can still load them onto Dreadnought chassis designed solely to generate enough power to fire the guns.



Whether this is happening or not is unknown, and I doubt Bioware really thought about stuff like this when they were making the game. We know that the Turians at least do have Thanix guns in their possession now, although whether they are only the kind that exists on the SR2 (i.e. tiny) or not is yet to be seen, along with then number of them that exist. The Alliance put the Javelin missile system into service since ME1, and the Batarians apparently have some sort of big orbital mirror death ray thingamajig.



As to why they aren't literally trying to build more Reapers, it might be because they can't (i.e. building regular 1KM dreadnoughts is hard enough, and doubling the size + a significantly larger core + fancy new guns just isn't possible) or they recognize that, although advanced, it is not an optimal design for combat and they want to build more specialized versions for their navies that are purely combat designs (don't need to land on planets = smaller core, only need guns = smaller size overall for example).



I doubt we'll find out until ME3. The fact that the Geth never came out with another Sovereign or even another ship with Thanix gun technology (despite the Turians trivially reverse engineering it to fit on FIGHTERS, of all things) should mean that it is blindingly obvious that the Geth do not have the cability to replicate more of them. For this reason I'm partial to believing that the council does, in fact, realize it's not Geth tech. If in ME3 it turns out that the council really does believe the crap that they are spewing about the Reapers not being real, that will leave a VERY bad taste in my mouth.

[Saren100]

I think thanix guns are a plothole



Why would sovereign not have given that tech to the Heretic geth before moving on the citadel.

[adam_grif]

There was a hole.

Modifié par adam_grif, 10 février 2011 - 10:14 .

[Wulfram]

I don't think they have the capability to replicate Reaper tech.

[JediNg]

Zacarius2 wrote...

One thing that struck me as odd is that the Council, new or old, does not seem to be acting on its on beliefs. No matter what happens at the end of Mass Effect 1, the Council in Mass Effect 2 says that Sovereign was a geth warship, built by the geth. Now from a military-industrial point of view this means that the geth have both the design and ability to create more. Yet the Council seems to take the construction of Sovereign as a fluk. A one off, never to happen again event. Even though they admit to having no idea what is happening behind the Persius Veil and have not done anything to reduce the geth's production abiities.

Our own history has show that when a new or dadically redesigned weapon is created that massive effort is put into recreating that weapon for your side. When the HMS Dreadnought was unveiled in 1906 all production of non-big gun battleships stopped. All previous designs were thrown out and all ships that were currecntly being build were redesigned to the Dreadnought pattern. Now mind you HMS Dreadnought was one ship that had never fired a shot at that time. Simply by existing it changed navel warfare. This Dreadnought Effect is missing form the ME universe. Every race's military should be trying to construct Sovereign class warships because their precieved enemies also have the supposed ability to construct them.

 Now there are a few easily explained answers for this ommision.
1. Shepard is an operative. Most operatives are not informed of their militaries navel build strategies.
2. The destruction of Sovereign gave the militaries of the galaxy the false belief that they can "paper-cut" to death these new geth warships.
3. The higher-ups in the political-military organizations of the galaxy actually beileve part of what Shepard was saying, but not the rest of it. That Sovereign was a Reaper, but that he was the only one.
4. The construction of Sovereign class warships takes time. Organics unlike geth can not work nonstop, so only the basic construction has begun. (possibly what was shown in Kaji's greybox)

Now ignoring those, since I made that argument for you. Why would the Council ignore its own retoric ( that Sovereign was geth built) when it comes to their own military plans? Where is the Dreadnought Effect? Shouldn't they all be hurriedly building their own? Because if the geth can destoy the number of ships they did with one Sovereign class ship what happens when they show up next time with two or three?

Naval*

[faeriehunter]

If the geth had built Sovereign they would indeed have the capability to build more. But it would not necessarily be the best use of resources. Given that no more Sovereign-type ships are seen despite the geth having been almost completely beaten (or so it seems to the Council and the Alliance) it's possible that the Council considers Sovereign to be a fluke, a geth experiment that wasn't quite as effective as intended.

Such a view would be supported by Sovereign's performance during the Battle of the Citadel, which was much less than it would have been in an ordinary space battle.
First of all, Sovereign spent most of the battle attached to the Citadel tower, nullifying its extreme maneuverability (according to Joker it's capable of turns that would shear any Alliance ship in half) and presenting a target that is all but impossible to miss. Being attached to the Citadel tower also prevented it from using its devastating spinal-mounted main gun.
Second, when Shepard & co destroyed robo-Saren, the backlash stunned Sovereign and dropped his shields. It's unclear how long Sovereign's shields would have held out without the backlash, but I'm pretty sure that the Alliance believes that it was their bombardment alone that overwhelmed Sovereign's shields, making those shields seem much less powerful than they actually were.

So while Sovereign certainly did some damage, it probably wasn't enough to make Sovereign look like the superweapon that it actually was. Making a Sovereign-sized dreadnought would also be very expensive. The cost of Sovereign's element zero core alone, which was massive enough to allow it to land on planets despite it being the biggest dreadnought ever seen, would make the 12 billion credit price tag of the first Normandy's eezo core look like chump change. As a result, the Council probably thinks that making several standard dreadnoughts is more cost effective than making a single Sovereign-sized one.

[AkiKishi]

faeriehunter wrote...

Being attached to the Citadel tower also prevented it from using its devastating spinal-mounted main gun.
.

That works both ways it means you can't shoot the big stuff at it without endangering the Citadel. From the after action report , 8 Human 20 Taurian Cruisers, nothing heavy was either at the battle (too slow to keep up) or was not used in fear of hitting the Citadel.

[adam_grif]

If the geth had built Sovereign they would indeed have the capability to build more. But it would not necessarily be the best use of resources. Given that no more Sovereign-type ships are seen despite the geth having been almost completely beaten (or so it seems to the Council and the Alliance) it's possible that the Council considers Sovereign to be a fluke, a geth experiment that wasn't quite as effective as intended.

But why didn't any other geth ships make use of Sovereign's thanix guns, especially in light of the ease with which the Turians reverse engineered and miniaturized it such that it was mountable on frigates and even fighters?

Being attached to the Citadel tower also prevented it from using its devastating spinal-mounted main gun.

Errr, how do you know it has a spinal mounted gun? We never saw anything of the sort in action, and I don't believe anything in the codex ever mentions such a thing.

[Saren100]

faeriehunter wrote...

If the geth had built Sovereign they would indeed have the capability to build more. But it would not necessarily be the best use of resources. Given that no more Sovereign-type ships are seen despite the geth having been almost completely beaten (or so it seems to the Council and the Alliance) it's possible that the Council considers Sovereign to be a fluke, a geth experiment that wasn't quite as effective as intended.

Such a view would be supported by Sovereign's performance during the Battle of the Citadel, which was much less than it would have been in an ordinary space battle.
First of all, Sovereign spent most of the battle attached to the Citadel tower, nullifying its extreme maneuverability (according to Joker it's capable of turns that would shear any Alliance ship in half) and presenting a target that is all but impossible to miss. Being attached to the Citadel tower also prevented it from using its devastating spinal-mounted main gun.
Second, when Shepard & co destroyed robo-Saren, the backlash stunned Sovereign and dropped his shields. It's unclear how long Sovereign's shields would have held out without the backlash, but I'm pretty sure that the Alliance believes that it was their bombardment alone that overwhelmed Sovereign's shields, making those shields seem much less powerful than they actually were.

So while Sovereign certainly did some damage, it probably wasn't enough to make Sovereign look like the superweapon that it actually was. Making a Sovereign-sized dreadnought would also be very expensive. The cost of Sovereign's element zero core alone, which was massive enough to allow it to land on planets despite it being the biggest dreadnought ever seen, would make the 12 billion credit price tag of the first Normandy's eezo core look like chump change. As a result, the Council probably thinks that making several standard dreadnoughts is more cost effective than making a single Sovereign-sized one.

the geth are building a freaking Dyson Sphere

I dont think they care about wasting resources.

[faeriehunter]

adam_grif wrote...

If the geth had built Sovereign they would indeed have the capability to build more. But it would not necessarily be the best use of resources. Given that no more Sovereign-type ships are seen despite the geth having been almost completely beaten (or so it seems to the Council and the Alliance) it's possible that the Council considers Sovereign to be a fluke, a geth experiment that wasn't quite as effective as intended.

But why didn't any other geth ships make use of Sovereign's thanix guns, especially in light of the ease with which the Turians reverse engineered and miniaturized it such that it was mountable on frigates and even fighters?

Maybe the principle of the thanix was a recent breakthrough and the geth were not yet able to convert their existing weaponry?

Actually, no explanation of "the geth were responsible for everyting" will be without holes, but as long as the holes are small enough the Council can keep convincing itself that there are no Reapers out there.

adam_grif wrote...

Being attached to the Citadel tower also prevented it from using its devastating spinal-mounted main gun.

Errr, how do you know it has a spinal mounted gun? We never saw anything of the sort in action, and I don't believe anything in the codex ever mentions such a thing.

Sovereign's main gun is described in the ME1 codex entry for Sovereign.

"At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot"

Modifié par faeriehunter, 10 février 2011 - 01:05 .

[Whatever42]

A few points:

First, Sovereign would not have given any technology to the Geth. It had nothing but disdain for the Geth.

Two, the council is clearly working at adapting the technology from Sovereign. They must know from the wreckage that it is not Geth technology - heck, its cybernetic, we know that now.

Three, they reproducing that technology is likely easier said than done. We say the construction of a Reaper in the collector base. Could the Council replicate that, if even they were prepared to do so? Unlikely. Maybe the Reapers's organic components were critical in shaping dark energy to provide shields and give a boost to weaponry. Simply building a dreadnaught twice as big wouldn't come close to approaching the power of a Reaper.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 10 février 2011 - 01:08 .

[AkiKishi]

faeriehunter wrote...
"At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot"

Wonder how it does against multicore shielding and heavy ship armour.

[adam_grif]

Maybe the principle of the thanix was a recent breakthrough and the geth were not yet able to convert their existing weaponry?

And yet, despite not even knowing how it worked at all, the Turians were able to reverse engineer and build functioning copies, miniaturized, in 14 months after the Battle of the Citadel. The geth didn't need to do any of that, but in the 2 years between ME and ME2, and during ME2, they still aren't using it? That's compete jibberish. There's no way they wouldn't be taking advantage of this thing that would give them a huge 1up on the Systems Alliance military.

"At two kilometers long, its spinal-mounted main gun is likely capable of penetrating another dreadnought's kinetic barriers with a single shot"

Don't recall that at all. Even so, it's not like it would have done any better in the battle if it had used this gun, since all it was fighting was cruisers.

[AkiKishi]

adam_grif wrote...

And yet, despite not even knowing how it worked at all, the Turians were able to reverse engineer and build functioning copies, miniaturized, in 14 months after the Battle of the Citadel. The geth didn't need to do any of that, but in the 2 years between ME and ME2, and during ME2, they still aren't using it? That's compete jibberish. There's no way they wouldn't be taking advantage of this thing that would give them a huge 1up on the Systems Alliance military.


Don't recall that at all. Even so, it's not like it would have done any better in the battle if it had used this gun, since all it was fighting was cruisers.

Taurians are very militaristic anything weapon based they will be all over.We don't really know what motivates the Geth besides all wanting to be a single hub.

Codex entries are like that, you have to read them. Honestly can't be bothered half the time. It might not have for the same reason that you don't see any heavies in that battle. It wanted the Citadel intact as well.

[adam_grif]

Taurians are very militaristic anything weapon based they will be all over.We don't really know what motivates the Geth besides all wanting to be a single hub.

How about the motivation to not lose a war and get wiped out by the Systems Alliance? You're also presuming that the council knows Geth motivations about wanting to create their large Dyson sphere structure to live in, which is something that only Shepard knows.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zacarius2 wrote...

One thing that struck me as odd is that the Council, new or old, does not seem to be acting on its on beliefs. No matter what happens at the end of Mass Effect 1, the Council in Mass Effect 2 says that Sovereign was a geth warship, built by the geth. Now from a military-industrial point of view this means that the geth have both the design and ability to create more. Yet the Council seems to take the construction of Sovereign as a fluk. A one off, never to happen again event. Even though they admit to having no idea what is happening behind the Persius Veil and have not done anything to reduce the geth's production abiities.

Our own history has show that when a new or dadically redesigned weapon is created that massive effort is put into recreating that weapon for your side. When the HMS Dreadnought was unveiled in 1906 all production of non-big gun battleships stopped. All previous designs were thrown out and all ships that were currecntly being build were redesigned to the Dreadnought pattern. Now mind you HMS Dreadnought was one ship that had never fired a shot at that time. Simply by existing it changed navel warfare. This Dreadnought Effect is missing form the ME universe. Every race's military should be trying to construct Sovereign class warships because their precieved enemies also have the supposed ability to construct them.

 Now there are a few easily explained answers for this ommision.
1. Shepard is an operative. Most operatives are not informed of their militaries navel build strategies.
2. The destruction of Sovereign gave the militaries of the galaxy the false belief that they can "paper-cut" to death these new geth warships.
3. The higher-ups in the political-military organizations of the galaxy actually beileve part of what Shepard was saying, but not the rest of it. That Sovereign was a Reaper, but that he was the only one.
4. The construction of Sovereign class warships takes time. Organics unlike geth can not work nonstop, so only the basic construction has begun. (possibly what was shown in Kaji's greybox)

Now ignoring those, since I made that argument for you. Why would the Council ignore its own retoric ( that Sovereign was geth built) when it comes to their own military plans? Where is the Dreadnought Effect? Shouldn't they all be hurriedly building their own? Because if the geth can destoy the number of ships they did with one Sovereign class ship what happens when they show up next time with two or three?

Three words: white elephant project. You bring up the HMS Dreadnaught, but the thing about the Dreadnaughts is that they were never really used: they were too costly to risk, which undermined the entire point. Dreadnaughts sat in ports, far from danger, while cruisers and destroyers waged the real war.

Kind of like the Destiny Ascension: 'the pride of the Citadel Fleet' was stationed at the least dangerous location in the entire galaxy (the Citadel itself, not out blocking the relays), at the first wave of the Geth invasion it almost immediatly got put into service as an escape pod for the Council before trying to flee from the battle, and simply the loss of it will drive the Asari from the galactic defense stage.

History's lesson about the Dreadnaught isn't that they made all other ships obsolete. It's that they were the biggest, most useless, least effective money sinks of military history.

Simply because Sovereign was big and powerful doesn't mean it was effective: it was being 'paper-cut to death', hence why it had to possess Saren's corpse to activate the Citadel Relay more quickly.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 février 2011 - 01:36 .

[AkiKishi]

adam_grif wrote...

How about the motivation to not lose a war and get wiped out by the Systems Alliance? You're also presuming that the council knows Geth motivations about wanting to create their large Dyson sphere structure to live in, which is something that only Shepard knows.

That may not apply to how the Geth think.They may have concluded that an arms race is counterproductive.
"We" are Shepard (that's the people reading this) so we know. The council has nothing to do with it.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Simply because Sovereign was big and powerful doesn't mean it was effective: it was being 'paper-cut to death', hence why it had to possess Saren's corpse to activate the Citadel Relay more quickly.

I agree with most of what you said. However something like Sovereign/DA is a very effective psychological weapon. Park the DA on someones doorstep and you will get a reaction.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I'll just agree with what Adam said in his first post. Couldn't have said it any better.