268 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

adam_grif wrote...

But why didn't any other geth ships make use of Sovereign's thanix guns, especially in light of the ease with which the Turians reverse engineered and miniaturized it such that it was mountable on frigates and even fighters?

Sovereign didn't feel inclined to share, and his Geth weren't about to question?

It's actually a legitimate concern on Sovereign's part. If he thinks he can win without the Geth being up-gunned, the reason for up-gunning them (to win the Battle for the Citadel) is nullified. On the other hand, in the post-Battle return of the Reapers, the Geth are going to be re-subjugated as well, and even if they're going to be the last to be, giving them the weapons by which to resist when the realize their Gods have turned on them would make that conflict pointlessly costly and difficult.


It's similar to why colonial powers interfering in a brush war did't give 'their' factions the best technology possible, but give them older weapons: you want to improve them while it's useful to you, but afterwards, you don't want them to be too strong if you want to move in as well. You're balancing immediate priorities (winning the battle) with later ones (winning the war).

Moreover, there's the matter that the geth and humans are fighting a war before: if the geth start mass-adapting such tech, and the Humans steal/salvage it, then there risks the real chance that the Humans, and by extension, the Council, might adapt the Thannix technology before Sovereign can make use of the Conduit. In which case, that benefits the Council races more than Sovereign.


Sovereign might have won the battle of the Citadel had the Geth been upgraded that far, but that's not why he lost the battle. Sovereign lost because of Vigil's deus-ex 'stop Sovereign, reopen the realys' data file. Which could only be implemented over a series of dramatic, last-second triumphs by Shepard, ranging from breaking through a Geth blockade against Council orders, finding Vigil, getting through the Conduit past multiple geth Collosi with inches to spare, fighting up the entire tower, beating Saren, and the beating the Sovereign Avatar.

Upgrading the geth fleet with Thannix's might have won the battle (or might not: the DA wasn't the only ship in the fleet, and despite severe losses the Citadel Fleet still remains in play), but it would only have trumped an incredibly unlikely scenario, and come with its own costs and risks regardless.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Simply because Sovereign was big and powerful doesn't mean it was effective: it was being 'paper-cut to death', hence why it had to possess Saren's corpse to activate the Citadel Relay more quickly.

I agree with most of what you said. However something like Sovereign/DA is a very effective psychological weapon. Park the DA on someones doorstep and you will get a reaction.

Park it on someone's doorstep, and you're liable to see it blown up in a surprise attack. Whereas for the same cost, you could get a number of (Mass Effect little d) dreadnaughts to mitigate the risk, and likely increase capability.

And, of course, the cautious Council doesn't send the DA to park on the doorstep of someone who might scratch the paint. The Council keeps it parked at the Citadel, the least dangerous place in the galaxy.


White elephant projects aren't wise investments, because the moment you play them you risk disproportionate investments if you lose it. Even US super-carriers have entire fleets built around protecting them, for far more than the carrier itself.

[adam_grif]

Sovereign didn't feel inclined to share, and his Geth weren't about to question?

Nononononononono.



You're missing the point of my post - I know why Sovereign didn't share, I'm pointing out that if Sovereign was Geth technology (which is what the Council claims to be believing), then other Geth ships should take advantage of the Thanix gun, because they already know how to build the technology, and it's very effective (so it would give them a huge advantage), even if they didn't want to build another Sovereign class ship for whatever reason.



The answer is because Sovereign wasn't Geth technology, and I'm saying that this should be fairly obvious to the Council, the Turians especially.

[Dean_the_Young]

adam_grif wrote...

Sovereign didn't feel inclined to share, and his Geth weren't about to question?

Nononononononono.

You're missing the point of my post - I know why Sovereign didn't share, I'm pointing out that if Sovereign was Geth technology (which is what the Council claims to be believing), then other Geth ships should take advantage of the Thanix gun, because they already know how to build the technology, and it's very effective (so it would give them a huge advantage), even if they didn't want to build another Sovereign class ship for whatever reason.

The answer is because Sovereign wasn't Geth technology, and I'm saying that this should be fairly obvious to the Council, the Turians especially.

Ah, I did miss your point. My apologies.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Park it on someone's doorstep, and you're liable to see it blown up in a surprise attack. Whereas for the same cost, you could get a number of (Mass Effect little d) dreadnaughts to mitigate the risk, and likely increase capability.

And, of course, the cautious Council doesn't send the DA to park on the doorstep of someone who might scratch the paint. The Council keeps it parked at the Citadel, the least dangerous place in the galaxy.


White elephant projects aren't wise investments, because the moment you play them you risk disproportionate investments if you lose it. Even US super-carriers have entire fleets built around protecting them, for far more than the carrier itself.

Gunboat diplomacy is effective, you just have to be careful where you park. It's not likely the tour of the systems the DA is undertaking in ME2 is just about visiting. It's about showing the councils power.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Gunboat diplomacy is effective, you just have to be careful where you park. It's not likely the tour of the systems the DA is undertaking in ME2 is just about visiting. It's about showing the councils power.

Gunboard diplomacy is only effective when the natives can't blow up your gunboat.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Gunboat diplomacy is effective, you just have to be careful where you park. It's not likely the tour of the systems the DA is undertaking in ME2 is just about visiting. It's about showing the councils power.

Gunboard diplomacy is only effective when the natives can't blow up your gunboat.

ME2 is very like the colonial era.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Gunboat diplomacy is effective, you just have to be careful where you park. It's not likely the tour of the systems the DA is undertaking in ME2 is just about visiting. It's about showing the councils power.

Gunboard diplomacy is only effective when the natives can't blow up your gunboat.

ME2 is very like the colonial era.

Except most everyone is a colonial power. Britain didn't park its dreadnaughts in the scalpa flow, or New York, for a reason.

[Zacarius2]

I think we have gotten off on a tangent here.

@Dean. You and I know that battleships are worthless in an age of aircraft carriers. And aircraft carriers are worthless in an age of anti-ship cruise missiles. That is not the universe we are discussing. I simply pointed to HMS Dreadnought as a historical case for frame of refernce.

 In the ME universe the council races pour money and resources into their fleets as primary weapon systems. If they believe what they are saying, that Sovereign was a geth creation, then they are not acting on it. They are ignoring the technologicaland industrial threat presented by this new weapon. From a military-industrial perspective the geth have the ability to produce more ships of this caliber and the will to use them. And yet we see no evidence that the council is doing anything to counteract the threat this new class of warship presents.

Look, I understand the first rule of speculative fiction is "Don't stare directly at the plotholes or you will go blind." But this is another thing that sticks with me. The council acts in the exact opposite manor than what they say. They say " Sovereign was a geth construction" but than do nothing to prepare to fight the next Sovereign class warship to come out of the shipyard. They act like the geth have been defeated and have no production capabilties when the truth is they have no idea how Sovereign was made or how many more the geth have behind they Veil.

Basically it comes down to this. Either the council honestly believe it was a geth creation and are fools for not responding to it. Or they are idiots who think that it was a fluk and there could not possibly be any more built.

PS thanks to everyone for these good debates. Much better than who deserves to be sexed up more, Tali or Garrus. Or which machine Mass Effect plays better on.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dreadnaughts were useless in the age of Dreadnaughts, even before aircraft. They were a consequence of the arms race, not military practicality. Your frame of reference was against any argument in favor of building a Sovereign (or even more Destiny Ascensions), as is the Council's experience in fighting it.



The reason why building another Sovereign would be a white elephant for the Council applies to the Geth as well. Simply because the Geth might (or, more wisely, might not) invest in more Sovereigns doesn't mean the Council should.





Since we don't know what the Council response to the Geth is, we can't say they haven't responded to it. A response to building more conventional cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughtsis far more sane than trying to build a Sovereign-style super-dreadnaught... and we have nothing to suggest they haven't built begun building more cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts.



They just aren't building them for the Reapers, which is what Shepard asks about.

[Kaltrec]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since we don't know what the Council response to the Geth is, we can't say they haven't responded to it. A response to building more conventional cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughtsis far more sane than trying to build a Sovereign-style super-dreadnaught... and we have nothing to suggest they haven't built begun building more cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts.

They just aren't building them for the Reapers, which is what Shepard asks about.

That's not entirely true, one of the news announcements says that the Turian are increasing dreadnaught productions or asking for an increase in quotas for them. (I dont remember if it's during a dead or alive council playthrough)

[Ahriman]

Main problem is that council probably doesn't know which part of geth was defeated.  Logical way is prepare to fullscale war with the geth, but Council as usually tries to avoid war by any way, they remind me League of Nations. They might be sure that they've defeated main geth fleet and geth "learned the lesson". Stupid logic, but history knows examples of even bigger stupidity.

Kaltrec wrote...

That's not entirely true, one of the news announcements says that the Turian are increasing dreadnaught productions or asking for an increase in quotas for them. (I dont remember if it's during a dead or alive council playthrough)

If council is dead asari delegate turians their dreadnought quota.

[LordShrike]

Every one here is gravely understating Nazaras capabilities. It got killed because it was basically "dead in the water". No matter the shields on that thing, or Sheps intervention for that matter. being stationary means you get hit: Massdrivers, people! those things are hellishly overpowered. Each round hits like a nuke; on a much smaller area. The moment Nazara stopped it was dead, only the other Reapers could have saved it, witch i'm guessing it was relying on. But had it not stopped... How do you kill something that cannot be hit? You don't. Nevermind on a open warfare situation, it could be waiting in a Jovian lower atmosphere for you to pass by. Or any number of other situations that are nightmarish to say the least.

So can you blame council for not believing it's a Reaper? It can do s#!t thats totally unfeasible by Council standards. Council is flat out refusing to believe such a thing could exist. Reaper is not what aircraft were to dreadnoughts, it's what nuclear submarines are to rowboats.

[AkiKishi]

LordShrike wrote...

Every one here is gravely understating Nazaras capabilities. It got killed because it was basically "dead in the water". No matter the shields on that thing, or Sheps intervention for that matter. being stationary means you get hit: Massdrivers, people! those things are hellishly overpowered. Each round hits like a nuke; on a much smaller area. The moment Nazara stopped it was dead, only the other Reapers could have saved it, witch i'm guessing it was relying on. But had it not stopped... How do you kill something that cannot be hit? You don't. Nevermind on a open warfare situation, it could be waiting in a Jovian lower atmosphere for you to pass by. Or any number of other situations that are nightmarish to say the least.
So can you blame council for not believing it's a Reaper? It can do s#!t thats totally unfeasible by Council standards. Council is flat out refusing to believe such a thing could exist. Reaper is not what aircraft were to dreadnoughts, it's what nuclear submarines are to rowboats.

They may be scary when they can choose the battlefield?That applies to any force ,not just Reapers.

How do you kill something that is too fast to hit ? Same way you do in any RPG either use area weapons that can't be dodged, or fire from so many directions that you don't leave an escape vector.Or you could just hit at the time when its turning and not in forward motion.

Anyone who has ever played a WWI/II flight sim should know all about deflection gunner so it should be second nature to a trained crew.

[LordShrike]

To BobSmith101: "area weapons that cannot be dodged." Name one that is usable repeatedly AND that is effective in vast dimensions. "fire from so many directions that there wont be a escape vector" Just how many ships do you have? millions? "just hit at the time when its turning and not in forward motion." i think it's/ them are not going to stop manuevers just so you can line up a perfect shot. "Choosing battlefield" Who do you think has the advantage of experience and mobility? Do not apply airwar scenarios to spacewar situations, they lack the in 3rd dimension, speed and distances.
No ill will intended to your persona. (<- gotta start adding that to my sig. =) ) just got leetle heated.

Modifié par LordShrike, 10 février 2011 - 04:55 .

[Ulzeraj]

Zacarius2 wrote...

One thing that struck me as odd is that the Council, new or old, does not seem to be acting on its on beliefs. No matter what happens at the end of Mass Effect 1, the Council in Mass Effect 2 says that Sovereign was a geth warship, built by the geth. Now from a military-industrial point of view this means that the geth have both the design and ability to create more. Yet the Council seems to take the construction of Sovereign as a fluk. A one off, never to happen again event. Even though they admit to having no idea what is happening behind the Persius Veil and have not done anything to reduce the geth's production abiities.

Our own history has show that when a new or dadically redesigned weapon is created that massive effort is put into recreating that weapon for your side. When the HMS Dreadnought was unveiled in 1906 all production of non-big gun battleships stopped. All previous designs were thrown out and all ships that were currecntly being build were redesigned to the Dreadnought pattern. Now mind you HMS Dreadnought was one ship that had never fired a shot at that time. Simply by existing it changed navel warfare. This Dreadnought Effect is missing form the ME universe. Every race's military should be trying to construct Sovereign class warships because their precieved enemies also have the supposed ability to construct them.

 Now there are a few easily explained answers for this ommision.
1. Shepard is an operative. Most operatives are not informed of their militaries navel build strategies.
2. The destruction of Sovereign gave the militaries of the galaxy the false belief that they can "paper-cut" to death these new geth warships.
3. The higher-ups in the political-military organizations of the galaxy actually beileve part of what Shepard was saying, but not the rest of it. That Sovereign was a Reaper, but that he was the only one.
4. The construction of Sovereign class warships takes time. Organics unlike geth can not work nonstop, so only the basic construction has begun. (possibly what was shown in Kaji's greybox)

Now ignoring those, since I made that argument for you. Why would the Council ignore its own retoric ( that Sovereign was geth built) when it comes to their own military plans? Where is the Dreadnought Effect? Shouldn't they all be hurriedly building their own? Because if the geth can destoy the number of ships they did with one Sovereign class ship what happens when they show up next time with two or three?

My pocket cheap theory is that they didnt ignored the evidences. They know about the reapers and are working about it.

But Shepard was dead and he is working with the terrorists now. As a member of the council would you give critical information to your open declared enemy?

Yeah Shepard is a hero and all that but who knows what the hell Cerberus might implanted him. He can't be trusted.

[Schneidend]

adam_grif wrote...

The answer is because Sovereign wasn't Geth technology, and I'm saying that this should be fairly obvious to the Council, the Turians especially.

The Council is basing the whole "Sovereign was a geth dreadnought" idea on fear, not on logic. They can easily handwave the geth cruisers' lack of Thanix Cannons and say that Sovereign was a "proof of concept" ship implementing prototype technology in the same way the Normandy is the only ship with a stealth field.

[MaaZeus]

Saren100 wrote...

I think thanix guns are a plothole

Why would sovereign not have given that tech to the Heretic geth before moving on the citadel.

Geth are "outside of their plans". A disposable unit, once they have served their purpose they will be destroyed. If not, they might be a threat to Reapers plans. If Sovereign would have given them Reaper tech, they would have hard time eradicating them from the way of next harvesting cycle. I dont believe for a second that Sovereign was going to give Geth what he promised, "ascension" to next level of artificial lifeforms.


Also I am in a camp that believes council knows or atleast suspects more than they let on. They just leave Shepard and possibly even Andersson out of the loop for reason or another.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 10 février 2011 - 05:30 .

[Ahriman]

MaaZeus wrote...
Also I am in a camp that believes council knows or atleast suspects more than they let on. They just leave Shepard and possibly even Andersson out of the loop for reason or another.

In Retribution Anderson says that they don't. Still it may be possible for plot reasons (if there will be that gather-the-army scenario).

[Ulzeraj]

Wizz wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
Also I am in a camp that believes council knows or atleast suspects more than they let on. They just leave Shepard and possibly even Andersson out of the loop for reason or another.

In Retribution Anderson says that they don't. Still it may be possible for plot reasons (if there will be that gather-the-army scenario).

He also lies to you about Ashley/Kaiden. He can't be trusted.

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 10 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[Ahriman]

Ulzeraj wrote...

He also lies to you about Ashley/Kaiden. He can't be trusted.

Everyone lies to Shepard, everyone. Still there is no Shepard in Retribution so Andersaon hasn't reason to lie.
Anyway all this may be easily retconned. *sigh*

[AkiKishi]

LordShrike wrote...

To BobSmith101: "area weapons that cannot be dodged." Name one that is usable repeatedly AND that is effective in vast dimensions. "fire from so many directions that there wont be a escape vector" Just how many ships do you have? millions? "just hit at the time when its turning and not in forward motion." i think it's/ them are not going to stop manuevers just so you can line up a perfect shot. "Choosing battlefield" Who do you think has the advantage of experience and mobility? Do not apply airwar scenarios to spacewar situations, they lack the in 3rd dimension, speed and distances.
No ill will intended to your persona. (<- gotta start adding that to my sig. =) ) just got leetle heated.

That was just a general run down on the various ways to hit things that "can't be hit". That's the thing when you turn you stop or slow, it's not intentional it just happens. Even if you turn on an axis in that moment you are vulnerable.  Same principle applies in space you don't aim where something is, you aim where it will be at the time your shot hits. It's a lot easier in space scenarios because computers do most othe work.

My personal favourite anti Reaper strategy is much the same as Drake used. Get in among them so they either have to hold fire, or risk hitting their friends. Pack a couple of drone ships with unstable Ezo and see what happens when they hit. Its apparent from ME2 that kinetic barriers work on speedy things, not so much on slow things. Actually the clue is pretty much in the name anyway. They can't always be zipping around, especially not in formation. We can see that from the end scene in ME2 with the 300 ish Reapers.

Make the Reapers psychology work against them. A couple of flaming wrecks of "immortal superbeings" are going to shock the hell out of them. The non Reaper forces expect to take loses, it won't have the same effect on them.

That was heated ? No offence taken anyway.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 10 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Kaltrec wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since we don't know what the Council response to the Geth is, we can't say they haven't responded to it. A response to building more conventional cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughtsis far more sane than trying to build a Sovereign-style super-dreadnaught... and we have nothing to suggest they haven't built begun building more cruisers, carriers, and dreadnaughts.

They just aren't building them for the Reapers, which is what Shepard asks about.

That's not entirely true, one of the news announcements says that the Turian are increasing dreadnaught productions or asking for an increase in quotas for them. (I dont remember if it's during a dead or alive council playthrough)

In a Renegade Council ME2, the Turians say they aren't going to abide by the prior Dreadnaught limitation treaty.

Which, in Earth history with battleship limitation treaties, doesn't amoung to a declaration or movement to increase production, or an implication that they were already at their limit. The way most such treaties work, the leading powers (with the highest quotas) set a standard that's comfortable for them, but then don't necessarily build up to that limit. Arms limitation treaties generally establish a right to a number, not an establishment of what that number actually is.

[AkiKishi]

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Modifié par BobSmith101, 10 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[James2912]

I think the Alliance is going to have the most effectively designed fleet. They are big on aircraft carriers. The reapers guns are designed for big ships. Fighters could easily dodge these or just use swarm tactics. The Reapers will suffer death by a thousand paper cuts.