268 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Maybe for that very reason ? Remember that early episode of StarGate with Apophis and his kinetic barrier ? They threw something at it and because of the slow speed it went right through. It's an easy thing for an "advanced" race to overlook.

This is different, though. In stargate, they were considered obsolete. In ME, they are still mentioned as something they simpy avoid using on planets.

Also, the Goa'uld were not used to being resisted. In ME, the Reapers are used to being resisted and have run through this scenario in different varients many times. It is possible noone tried nukes in the past, but it seems unlikely.

It is also a relatively easy tactic to counter, especially when you have the maneuverability Sovereign did (unless they retcon that out somehow, of course).

When you see fighters and/or missiles coming, you retrograde and shoot them. If they are coming at FTL speeds, you FTL so they have to drop tracking and miss. They will run out of ammo before you do because nukes aren't just easy to obtain and produce chunks of iron.

[Pro_Consul]

Grrr. I hate it when we mix franchises.

[Moiaussi]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Grrr. I hate it when we mix franchises.

Is it really 'mixing' though? If ME is Earth's future, then all contemporary science fiction is 'historical works of art' and thus fair game for Shepard or the Alliance or anyone regardless of race who just happens to study or otherwise enjoy such 'old shows' to consider.

Farscape made good use of this, with the main human making pop references all the time. It helped in that case that he was a contemporary Earth astronaut....

Stargate borrowed the concept (as well as much of Farscapes actors in later seasons, lol).

[LordShrike]

Actually, fission devices/nukes are pretty easy to obtain in ME. Especially by methods explained in codex. (Think its the omni tool one, or weapon mods. Something about easy to manufacture micro components.) If you want really overkill weapon: Antimatter. 2 grammes will destroy a modern day aircraft carrier. And even that is not out of reach to ME races. (I think Tuchanca's neighboring system had a system to create it.) Even Reaper would have problem with textbook saturation attack, when it comes to it, even with the manouverability.
Mixing Franchises? ME with ME? Shep had a walktrough? No wonder it's so easy to her...
EDIT: misplaced "was" instead of "is", it bugged me. so i fixed it

Modifié par LordShrike, 12 février 2011 - 02:06 .

[Sajuro]

The use for Dreadnoughts? Simple of course: ramming speed.

[LordShrike]

Sajuro Said:

"The use for Dreadnoughts? Simple of course: ramming speed."

Yup, Two points on Frigates, five for Cruisers. You lose one health on DNs, and its Game Over if you hit a Reaper. Simple. Played the the Omnitool-app game. Never finished though, damn Reaper always Pwned me. =)

[Thracecius]

 This has been a fun thread to read. 

I've never been a fan of "unbeatable" opponents in fiction, and the fact that so little information has really been included in the games, even in the Codex, regarding Reaper-tech, I'd say it is safe to assume that most of this discussion is pointless, though not without merit from a speculative standpoint. But what the heck, I'll pitch in my two cents for laughs. 

The fleet combat tactics utilized in the Mass Effect universe seem very much akin to those utilized in the pre-nuclear era in real history, albeit with a few important differences regarding range and defensive capabilities such as kinetic barriers. Taking into consideration all of a Sovereign-class Reaper's advantages in manuverability and multi-directional primary armament, I still think there must be a way to out-fight them and utilize the slower MAC weapons of the ME races' captial ships. And remember, at least one Reaper was 'killed' by a massive MAC round fired from a great distance 37 million years ago, so it can be done. The Codex states that current era MAC rounds are accelerated to 1.3% of c and hit with the explosive power of 38 kilotons of TNT - roughly the equivalent of a tactical nuclear weapon - so it seems to me that any informed ship commander would think outside the box and determine a way to put their primary weapon to use. Previous posters have already mentioned several attributes of nuclear-level weapons, including radiation - a very salient point, as nothing is immune to it's effects once the shielding is bypassed -, but one thing I haven't seen yet is the mention of the effects of an explosive shockwave, which still exist in the vacuum of space. How could that be used to best advantage?

Do you swarm a Reaper with your most manueverable ships and fighters, doing no real damage perhaps, but providing your capital ships with time enough to bring their main guns to bear and strike?

Do you try to engage the Reapers where you can best utilize solar system objects (asteroids, moons, planets) as targets of opportunity to create shockwaves or radiation fields that will harm them?

Do you hold the line at the most critical Mass Relays and engage them before they can put their superior manueverability into action?

We've seen arguments in favor of the Reapers winning, so how about some serious thought on how they can be beaten? 

-Thracecius

Modifié par Thracecius, 12 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[vader da slayer]

Saren100 wrote...

I think thanix guns are a plothole

Why would sovereign not have given that tech to the Heretic geth before moving on the citadel.

how? they are fully explained in the codex after you gain them. and you don't give the servants/slaves free access to the weapons. remember the reapers will eventually kill off the geth too.

[Moiaussi]

LordShrike wrote...

Actually, fission devices/nukes are pretty easy to obtain in ME. Especially by methods explained in codex. (Think its the omni tool one, or weapon mods. Something about easy to manufacture micro components.) If you want really overkill weapon: Antimatter. 2 grammes will destroy a modern day aircraft carrier. And even that is not out of reach to ME races. (I think Tuchanca's neighboring system had a system to create it.) Even Reaper would have problem with textbook saturation attack, when it comes to it, even with the manouverability.
Mixing Franchises? ME with ME? Shep had a walktrough? No wonder it's so easy to her...
EDIT: misplaced "was" instead of "is", it bugged me. so i fixed it

Last I checked, antimatter doesn't count as fission or a nuke, and has never been tested as a weapon, let alone on a modern aircraft carrier, which of course is a slow moving, easy target that can't outrun the missile by way of FTL, has no shielding of any sort relevant in ME, etc, etc, etc.

In fact, it doesn't take a very big conventional nuke to sink one, let alone 2 grams of antimatter.

Per wikipedia, 1kg of antimatter could cause a 43 megaton explosion, so the potential is there, however half that is 'carried away by neutrinos' and 'for all intents and purposes, it can be considered lost'

Furthermore, it is mostly kinetic, so mass effect shields would be applicable. Note that if containment broke on such a weapon, it would go off, since there would presumably be matter packed with the warhead, in its casing if nothing else. Frankly if the Normandy uses antimatter based drive systems, it is simply writer's fiat that there was anything left of the ship at all.

http://en.wikipedia....timatter_weapon

Aaaaand, there is still the same problem that it s tech based on conventional science. Which means the Reapers likely faced it in the past even if in the form of ships trying to ram them and explode their own drive cores.

Which means the reapers presumably have some sort of answer...  an anti mass effect weapon would do nicely. Breach containment on any enemy ship *and* any such warheads. Turn enemy ships into your weapon.

Since reaper sheilding seems mass effect based, such a weapon might work on them too, actually... at least on their sheilds. They could have alternative propulsion systems.

[adam_grif]

Furthermore, it is mostly kinetic, so mass effect shields would be applicable.

Antimatter - Matter annihilation produces no kinetic component unless detonated in the atmosphere, much the same as a nuclear initiation (which produces mostly X-rays and similar radiation, which upon interaction with the atmosphere creates the blast and related effects). The obvious small exception is the antimatter container which would be blown apart, but for all intents and purposes we can ignore that and consider it a big radiation bomb when dealing with this in space.

[Vociferation]

ME3's got to give us extras...perhaps we'll see specialized advancements once we recruit the galaxy's alliances for these final battle with the repears. I wouldn 't mind a Post ME3 DLC that takes us to the Repear's homeworld...wherever...whatever that may be.

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

Furthermore, it is mostly kinetic, so mass effect shields would be applicable.

Antimatter - Matter annihilation produces no kinetic component unless detonated in the atmosphere, much the same as a nuclear initiation (which produces mostly X-rays and similar radiation, which upon interaction with the atmosphere creates the blast and related effects). The obvious small exception is the antimatter container which would be blown apart, but for all intents and purposes we can ignore that and consider it a big radiation bomb when dealing with this in space.

Fair enough, but what about the other limitations? And what if reapers are simply hardened against radiation or have much better radiation shielding than people are assuming?

[AkiKishi]

I don't think it matters as long as it's believable, that's enough for it to work. In the end Bioware can write whatever they like whether it makes sense or not. I'd prefer it if it at least made "sci-fi" sense.

[Moiaussi]

The problem with nukes is that it is waaaaay too easy an answer to make good literary sense.

[AkiKishi]

Moiaussi wrote...

The problem with nukes is that it is waaaaay too easy an answer to make good literary sense.

I don't know I find it quite poetic that the Reapers could be defeated by good old earth history barbarism. It's quite "War of the Worlds" but not as deus ex machina.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 12 février 2011 - 07:01 .

[LordShrike]

I'm assuming Reapers are immune to radiation. Simply because there is a lot of radiation in open space, and reapers are old. (Shep must have radiation poisoning for even coming to contact with the derelict one.) So they either ignore it or somehow purge or nullify its effects.

Thracecius put together some good questions and points.

Physical shockwaves do not exist in space because there is no matter for it to transfer trough. tough other parts of that paragraf was quite accurate.

Swarming does not seem like a good idea, Reapers gonna know its a diversionary tactic and just FTL light sec away, do the math, slug a round to your ship, FTL to another location and laugh when the round hits you few secs later. And they must have superior anti light vessel weapons or their own swarmers to counter that.

Using solar system bodies sound like taking the underdog position before the fight even begins. Remember that the Reapers are the ones who are less affected by gravitational fields and somesuch. They could be waiting in the planetary surface for you to do an overpass; MAC round, you dead. Same with jovians, they wait for you to do core charge dump and, Surprise! Reaper! And on and on. Though it is an novel tactic that gives the advantage of not being predictable.

Hold the line against enemy with the superior firepower, manouverability, weapon multi directionality, resilience, combat endurance and tech? Thats like a assisted suicide. (Oh, yes and the relays are Reaper tech. Thats Reaper turf.) Manouverability comes in to play heavily especially in knife fight ranges. Out manouvering Op-For is half the victory.

Those points were good, but you gotta think outside the box that the reapers have put us. Somehow i seem to be incapable of doing so...

OH, GUESS THE INDOCTRINATION IS TAKING IT'S TOLL. TOO BAD. HARBRINGER.

Sorry for Thracecius for ripping that Sentients well built case to shreds. Not feeling all that "creative" at the moment.

[Pro_Consul]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The problem with nukes is that it is waaaaay too easy an answer to make good literary sense.

I don't know I find it quite poetic that the Reapers could be defeated by good old earth history barbarism. It's quite "War of the Worlds" but not as deus ex machina.

But it also very unoriginal, so I hope they don't go that route.

[LordShrike]

Okay, how to kill a Reaper. i'm going with classic and borrow from Alistair Reynolds:

SPOILER ALERT for Alistair Reynolds books.

A Frigging Hypometric Weapon. Those would hurt the reapers, Badly.

http://en.wikipedia....pometric_weapon

Look a bit higher in there and you see entry called Cache Weapons. I think some those might even be in the in the realm of possibility in MEverse. Certainly something Reapers would have problem countering. Other than something similiar in weapon tech there is no way to really hurt them in my mind. Avoids the Gud'amn Deus Ex Machina too...

Oh, and if those fail, Check the Lighthugger one. X)

SPOILER ALERT for Alistair Reynolds books ends.

I don't think any ME day tactics we can come up with have a chance of being effective against Reapers. ME weaponry is based around Mass Drivers and Eezo.

"Your civilization is based on the mass relays, our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it." -Nazara.

Society: that would include weaponry and tactics. Telling Shep changed nothing, they are the weapons in use already. Anyone who thinks otherwise:

"Confidence born of ignorance" -Nazara.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The problem with nukes is that it is waaaaay too easy an answer to make good literary sense.

I don't know I find it quite poetic that the Reapers could be defeated by good old earth history barbarism. It's quite "War of the Worlds" but not as deus ex machina.

But then couldn't the Reapers just use the same if it's so effective?

This may sound weird, but I always thought of Sovereign as a giant biotic more than a warship.  He could maneuver in an atmosphere, burned the Eden Prime colony to ash just by landing, and plowed through other ships without taking damage.    The collectors also used biotics, even though most of their important bits had been replaced by cybernetics.  I can't recall him even using his guns until he was trapped on the Citadel Tower, more like a secondary defense.

[LordShrike]

Gyroscopic_Trout Said: (love the username.)

"This may sound weird, but I always thought of Sovereign as a giant biotic more than a warship. He could maneuver in an atmosphere, burned the Eden Prime colony to ash just by landing, and plowed through other ships without taking damage. The collectors also used biotics, even though most of their important bits had been replaced by cybernetics. I can't recall him even using his guns until he was trapped on the Citadel Tower, more like a secondary defense."

Manouvering in atmosphere is the result of MASSIVE eezo core on him. And that burning plant of earth (eden?) behind relay just came from his Thrusters. Eezo cores help movement, not create it. or it was just weapon fire. It is where he was landed tho...

Every warship in Me verse is basically a biotic. They just lack the capacity to project their mass effect field in to anything. (Never been done. nor is there any mention of such thing anywhere.) As to the using of guns... He did make bee-line to the Citadel, not even stopping for that cruiser that got in the way. Guns use power, he was in a hurry. And then the hacking of Citadel took his resources. Then the fleet got trough the Heretic blockade (and shield arms) and he got an actual reason to use his guns.

Didn't see it as biotic thing to do. Tough it IS an intresting idea. Nothing wrong with those.

[Sajuro]

@ Lord Shrike:

You said we have no tactics to beat the reapers since we used Eezo based tech, but I have an answer to that: More Dakka, if that doesn't work than you obviously aren't using enough Dakka.

[LordShrike]

@ Sajuro:

No, more Blasta! Definately more Shootier! And make it more red to go even Fasta! Backup plan would be: Waaagh!!! =)

I think i specified that was the case.(Shootier! Blastier! More Dakka! Was i unclear? My bad.)

Do i Geth a cookie for getting the ref?

[Sajuro]

@LordShrike

sure -give cookie-

Better, we hook the Reapers up to TV Tropes, it will destroy their lives.

[LordShrike]

@ Sajuro:
Or we just introduce them to social.bioware, Now that S#its just plain addictive. =)

WHAT? IT'S GOOD STUFF. AND WHERE ELSE I'M GOING TO GET ALL THIS PROPAGANDA OUT? THIS SHELL IS SOMETIMES A PAIN I TELL YOU. HARBRINGER.
EDIT:
-Geth has a cookie, Geth are building Consensus... "Geth do not Cookie."
"Right, Where did the Cookie go then?"
"No data available... May this platform have another to confirm it's Consensus?"

Modifié par LordShrike, 13 février 2011 - 06:05 .

[White_Buffalo94]

adam_grif wrote...

Taurians are very militaristic anything weapon based they will be all over.We don't really know what motivates the Geth besides all wanting to be a single hub.

How about the motivation to not lose a war and get wiped out by the Systems Alliance? You're also presuming that the council knows Geth motivations about wanting to create their large Dyson sphere structure to live in, which is something that only Shepard knows.

I think you are mistaken in calling them Geth. Heretics are the ones who fought for Sovereign I believe
Edit: Spelling

Modifié par White_Buffalo94, 13 février 2011 - 06:04 .