268 réponses à ce sujet

[ZLurps]

LordShrike wrote...

What we (Sorry for presuming Zlurps.) are suggesting that Protheans had problems with Sleeper agents is just because of this "Boarding" thing. Problem with indoctrination is it "precision" or lack there of. Indoc. is not remote control, it's brainwash.(EDIT: You stated that yourself. Eh?)

Well, that is one possibility. Protheans ships could be boarded, but because they didn't had any intergalactic way to communicate other than mass relays Reapers could as well just invaded one planet and send "refugee" ships from there to other systems.

However, in some cases that might not be the best option. Then plan B is to hijack ships, space stations and so on.
Also intelligence is very important in any war, also for Reapers. Protheans are very good example of that. Ilos was saved by dumb luck and because Reapers "lost" on espionage front.
Say Reapers were hijacked and indoctrinated some high raking Prothean scientist who knew about Ilos facility. Bye bye Vigil... there weren't been anyone left to help Shepard... actually Reapers were attacked through Citadel 2000 years ago. Bye bye galaxy...

[LordShrike]

Oh, I'm going to let you figure that part out by yourself, Moiaussi. Who do you think has been to Ilos AFTER protheans?

DIG FLESHLING, DIG. ITS "REAPERS ALL THE WAY DOWN" -HARBRINGER.

@Zlurps: Hmm. Use planets? Ooh, i'm so going to do something like that... Might take a few days tho.
New thread... Killing a Reaper, The tought about it seriously edition.

Modifié par LordShrike, 17 février 2011 - 09:46 .

[ZLurps]

Moiaussi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Obviously Protheans lost their communications when Reapers took control of the mass relays making it impossible for one Prothean world to warn others. So Protheans welcomed indoctrinated "refugees" with open arms. Vigil explains all this IMO very well in ME1.

And yet they knew that without communications.... Vigil explained relatively little. It is the kind of thing that in RL entire books could be written around (or in this case, potentially ME3)

I don't see there is much more to explain. Remember that even they went in total black out after they knew there was serious threat Prothean genocide by Reapers wen't on for centuries. Vigil as VI was awake, listening communications, and later remaining Prothean scientists could also gather information via what was left of their beacon network.

[Moiaussi]

ZLurps wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Obviously Protheans lost their communications when Reapers took control of the mass relays making it impossible for one Prothean world to warn others. So Protheans welcomed indoctrinated "refugees" with open arms. Vigil explains all this IMO very well in ME1.

And yet they knew that without communications.... Vigil explained relatively little. It is the kind of thing that in RL entire books could be written around (or in this case, potentially ME3)

I don't see there is much more to explain. Remember that even they went in total black out after they knew there was serious threat Prothean genocide by Reapers wen't on for centuries. Vigil as VI was awake, listening communications, and later remaining Prothean scientists could also gather information via what was left of their beacon network.

My point was that it didn't just have to be refugees. We also know that on Eden, Sovereign didn't have to have the smugglers actually on board for them to hear the indoctrination transmissions in their head.

Furthermore, the Rachni mentions a 'song from space' that changed their song, again implying long range capabilities, also supported by the real time control abilities of Harbinger over any given 'assumed' collector. 

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

adam_grif wrote...

5. That the council believes that the Reapers are real, believes that there are still more of them out there, but does not publicly acknowledge this and wouldn't let Shepard into the loop because of his Cerberus connection.

Also, Shepard is a bit of a blabbermouth and doesn't really understand OPSEC very well.  

[Sajuro]

Moiaussi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

Obviously Protheans lost their communications when Reapers took control of the mass relays making it impossible for one Prothean world to warn others. So Protheans welcomed indoctrinated "refugees" with open arms. Vigil explains all this IMO very well in ME1.

And yet they knew that without communications.... Vigil explained relatively little. It is the kind of thing that in RL entire books could be written around (or in this case, potentially ME3)

I don't see there is much more to explain. Remember that even they went in total black out after they knew there was serious threat Prothean genocide by Reapers wen't on for centuries. Vigil as VI was awake, listening communications, and later remaining Prothean scientists could also gather information via what was left of their beacon network.

My point was that it didn't just have to be refugees. We also know that on Eden, Sovereign didn't have to have the smugglers actually on board for them to hear the indoctrination transmissions in their head.

Furthermore, the Rachni mentions a 'song from space' that changed their song, again implying long range capabilities, also supported by the real time control abilities of Harbinger over any given 'assumed' collector. 

Also on Virmire, unless Saren somehow got another indoctrination device from Sovereign.
I think Sovereign might have visited the Rachni Homeworld, or at least a colony, but it would be called 'from space' since that is where Sovereign came from.

[ZLurps]

IIRC Saren got incotrinated because he found Sovereign on SPECTE mission. Don't recall any more details, it was in one of those ME novels.

I think what happened to Rachni was result of Sovereign indoctrinating one or more queens on planet because sonic waves can't travel in space. Electromagnetic pulses can but if that would be enough, Reaper wouldn't need to travel anywhere at the first place.

I guess what happened was that Sovvy got control of the queen or queens on some of the Rachni worlds or maybe in their ships and manipulated them to send that "yellow sour note".

I think Saren got indoctrination device from Sovvy to create Krogan army and intelligence gathering purposes. Or was it that he got schematics for one from elsewhere? His main goal was however to analyse indoctrination and develop countermeasure by reverse engineering it.

What comes to Harby assuming direct control of Collector drones, that has nothing to do with indoctrination per se. Collector drones are basically just very advanced husks, engineered to have accept "direct control" feature from the start.

I have few ideas about how indoctrination might actually work. As all we know about indoctrination is based on real physics, it might be possible to get some sort of estimation about effective area of influence.

Modifié par ZLurps, 19 février 2011 - 11:34 .

[mcsupersport]

:DXDAD:happy:CFFT:sick:L

[mcsupersport]

:DTGESR:lol:ADWA:sick:ADA

[LordShrike]

^wut?

Something very funny is going on in this here thread.

So, i'm going to bumb it, to find out if that helps....

I think the effective range of indoc might not be that great, considering all the variables involved. possibly only in the hundreds of meters maximum from origin point. Seeing as all the variables must combine for something to be called Indoctrination.

[ZLurps]

 @ LordShrikeMaybe someone else using  "MAPLE AFASIA BROWSER" Argh, not now...
And yep, I don't think effective range can be very large either. Codex says indotrination signals are subliminal, what  farmers experienced on Eden Prime is something else, maybe part of indoctrination signal but they weren't in the main area of influence.

For me it makes sense that what they perceived was Sovereign's infrasonic signal. Note: 

Wikipedia tell following about infrasound:

Wikipedia wrote...
Infrasound is sound that is lower in frequency than 20 Hz (Hertz) or cycles per second, the "normal" limit of human hearing. Hearing becomes gradually less sensitive as frequency decreases, so for humans to perceive infrasound, the sound pressure must be sufficiently high. The ear is the primary organ for sensing infrasound, but at higher levels it is possible to feel infrasound vibrations in various parts of the body.
The study of such sound waves is sometimes referred to as infrasonics, covering sounds beneath 20 Hz down to 0.001 Hz. This frequency range is utilized for monitoring earthquakes, charting rock and petroleum formations below the earth, and also in ballistocardiography and seismocardiography to study the mechanics of the heart. Infrasound is characterized by an ability to cover long distances and get around obstacles with little dissipation.

And

Wikipedia wrote...
Twenty Hz is considered the normal low frequency limit of human hearing. When pure sine waves are reproduced under ideal conditions and at very high volume, a human listener will be able to identify tones as low as 12 Hz.[15] Below 10 Hz it is possible to perceive the single cycles of the sound, along with a sensation of pressure at the eardrums.
The dynamic range of the auditory system decreases with decreasing frequency. This compression can be seen in the equal-loudness-level contours, and it implies that a slight increase in level can change the perceived loudness from barely audible to loud. Combined with the natural spread in thresholds within a population, it may have the effect that a very low frequency sound which is inaudible to some people may be loud to others.
Infrasound has been known to cause feelings of awe or fear in humans. Since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural events are taking place.
Some film soundtracks make use of infrasound to produce unease or disorientation in the audience. Irréversible is one such movie,[citation needed] as is Paranormal Activity.

There is also something that made me think of some logs left from Cerberus science team in a derelict Reaper.

Wikipedia wrote...
"Research by Vic Tandy, a lecturer at Coventry University, suggested that an infrasonic signal of 19 Hz might be responsible for some ghost sightings. Tandy was working late one night alone in a supposedly haunted laboratory at Warwick, when he felt very anxious and could detect a grey blob out of the corner of his eye. When Tandy turned to face the grey blob, there was nothing.
The following day, Tandy was working on his fencing foil, with the handle held in a vise. Although there was nothing touching it, the blade started to vibrate wildly. Further investigation led Tandy to discover that the extractor fan in the lab was emitting a frequency of 18.98 Hz, very close to the resonant frequency of the eye given as 18 Hz by NASA. This was why Tandy had seen a ghostly figure—it was an optical illusion caused by his eyeballs resonating. The room was exactly half a wavelength in length, and the desk was in the centre, thus causing a standing wave which was detected by the foil."

Then there is infrasonics, part of indoctrination signal. Currently there are SODAR's (SOnic Detection And Ranging) devices used to gather data from winds. Those devices have a maximum range of 2 kilometers but that's right up to the sky where there aren't any obstacles and echoes.
Problem with infrasound is dissipation. For example range on air for detecting solid objects seems to be like 5 meters max.

So even ultrasonic part of indoctrination signal can travel kilometers and can penetrate through for example, solid stone  infrasonic part of the signal can't.
Even Reapers are very powerful, I don't think they can maintain effective infrasonic field larger than few hundred meters because there are just too many variables, air density, temperature, landscape, echoes, other noise (wind), materials, clothing... etc.

Modifié par ZLurps, 19 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[LordShrike]

You really did a stellar job at finding out all those wiki entries. I myself tried to find something similar, but was stumped by either my own stupidity, or the total lack of pre-knowledge on the subject. This really is only intelligent guess work to the anatomy of indoc. BUT: So any place descripted as haunted in ME has high possibility of hosting a Indoc. device. Also would like to point out one small detail i found curious; non of the places without an actual Reaper provided any Indoctrinees, just Husks. Maybe the Indoc. requires a active Reaper to be Indoc. otherwise it is just an subliminal message to huskify yourself and those around you. So i guess Dragons Teeth have a Subliminal message device similar to indoc. device in their construction. Without a Reaper you only get insane people with a penchant to impale themselves. So, actual reasoning on the indoctrinees part requires an active response-return from a Reaper or a Reaper device designed for such a thing.

Witch is loosely tied to this next parts outcome. So, i got thinking on this "how to kill a Reaper" thing with spare time on my hands. I filled a lot of A4s with guess work and solid math to get something useful. I wont bore you with the tech. (and because i really don't feel like repeating my self any more than is neccesary. Deel Wit it...) End result: There is no surefire way to kill them, that won't get instakill-countered. Or worse, turned against you on strategic level. Lets extrapolate: First thing to take in account are the Reapers capabilities themselves. 1: Millions of years of succesful execution of extinction level events. So, they have a information repository spanning all those years detailing all hostile encounters during that time, Or worse; they were there in person(integrated memory of that should give same effective result.). 2:"Cybernetical capabilities and Intellectual processes." Reapers do not view any tactical or strategic conflict as we do. For them any possible engagement has likely already happened during their existence. Leading directly to optimization of execution in processing intensive situations; conflict. Where humans must do the following; Identify, optimize, reorg, communicate, prepare, execute. Reapers can; Identify, execute. Reapers enter any conflict with a significant advantage in execution times and preformed tactics and strategies. even with out the material advantage. Reapers can also communicate possible scenarios with an significant speed boost due to being cybernetical in nature.

These are just part of what i put together, maybe i'll add them later. But this is the thing that got me derailed mid-process: How did the Geth got the "brilliant" idea to follow Nazara? They can't be indoctrinated. I looked at the mess of papers i had, full of proof Reapers are going to win; Geth did the exact same thing (albeit much better...) as i had. And came to the conclusion that Reapers are going to win, Argument ensues; some have the "Math error" and become heretics. (Maybe it is the Geth who are in error, not Heretics...)

Ow, my arm hurts... Need better keypad... More to come.

[ZLurps]

LordShrike wrote...

You really did a stellar job at finding out all those wiki entries. I myself tried to find something similar, but was stumped by either my own stupidity, or the total lack of pre-knowledge on the subject. This really is only intelligent guess work to the anatomy of indoc. BUT: So any place descripted as haunted in ME has high possibility of hosting a Indoc. device. Also would like to point out one small detail i found curious; non of the places without an actual Reaper provided any Indoctrinees, just Husks. Maybe the Indoc. requires a active Reaper to be Indoc. otherwise it is just an subliminal message to huskify yourself and those around you. So i guess Dragons Teeth have a Subliminal message device similar to indoc. device in their construction. Without a Reaper you only get insane people with a penchant to impale themselves. So, actual reasoning on the indoctrinees part requires an active response-return from a Reaper or a Reaper device designed for such a thing.

Well, I was afraid my description was too vague, especially because I didn't emphasise that infrasonic waves have very weak penetration, they bounce back even from air... that's why they are used to study weather.

Very good point that there has been only Husks where there has been indoctrination device. I think it's exactly like you describe it. Without Reaper involved in the process, devices can't create but those mindless minions.

I think it's also very interesting that in derelict Reaper we encounter Scions and those exploding kind of husks too. They are also described as improved in comparison to Husks Shep & co met in ME1. So in addition to indoctrination like Saren and Matriarch Benezia Reaper can also create variety of troops.

indoctrination device + humans = simple Husks.
indoctrination Reaper + humans = Improved Husks, flaming Husks, Scions.

Of course there is also alternate possibility (There was a hole) but I don't really want to think about that. 

I think the process of creating Husks is that indoctrination device reprograms target on psychological and physical level. Psychological effect is important to keep target fascinated and coming back into area of influence. Then I guess process continues by manipulating brain and other physiology.

To make simple example: Say if we could find a way to stimulate area of the brain that controls our appetite we could make a person feel either hungry or satisfied no matter if this person actually has a full or empty stomach.
Then indoctrination devices go even further than that. They could re-program a brain to start growing stage again and manipulate other physiology to comply with that. Say some flesh of victims index finger starts turning to bone again and nail changes too, it comes stronger and there are structural changes too, it shapes bit like chisel towards the end. Of course material needs to be taken from somewhere so it's taken slowly from non-essential parts... reproductive system, tongue, digestive system (not too early though) and so on. Process is actually pretty fast and target must not to die in shock or rejection so I think manipulating targets physiology via indoctrination signal might be necessarily too. Anyway, in the end we would get husk that index finger functions like a screw driver. Maybe not very... useful, but well, that's just an example.

Hmm.. did I really wrote all that creepy stuff?

LordShrike wrote...
Witch is loosely tied to this next parts outcome. So, i got thinking on this "how to kill a Reaper" thing with spare time on my hands. I filled a lot of A4s with guess work and solid math to get something useful. I wont bore you with the tech. (and because i really don't feel like repeating my self any more than is neccesary. Deel Wit it...) End result: There is no surefire way to kill them, that won't get instakill-countered. Or worse, turned against you on strategic level. Lets extrapolate: First thing to take in account are the Reapers capabilities themselves. 1: Millions of years of succesful execution of extinction level events. So, they have a information repository spanning all those years detailing all hostile encounters during that time, Or worse; they were there in person(integrated memory of that should give same effective result.). 2:"Cybernetical capabilities and Intellectual processes." Reapers do not view any tactical or strategic conflict as we do. For them any possible engagement has likely already happened during their existence. Leading directly to optimization of execution in processing intensive situations; conflict. Where humans must do the following; Identify, optimize, reorg, communicate, prepare, execute. Reapers can; Identify, execute. Reapers enter any conflict with a significant advantage in execution times and preformed tactics and strategies. even with out the material advantage. Reapers can also communicate possible scenarios with an significant speed boost due to being cybernetical in nature.
These are just part of what i put together, maybe i'll add them later. But this is the thing that got me derailed mid-process: How did the Geth got the "brilliant" idea to follow Nazara? They can't be indoctrinated. I looked at the mess of papers i had, full of proof Reapers are going to win; Geth did the exact same thing (albeit much better...) as i had. And came to the conclusion that Reapers are going to win, Argument ensues; some have the "Math error" and become heretics. (Maybe it is the Geth who are in error, not Heretics...)
Ow, my arm hurts... Need better keypad... More to come.

I'm very curious about what you have in your mind. I have odd feeling that there is something there regarding this thing:
Harby (via Collectors) and derelict Reaper produced exactly the same kind of husks. There's no evolution between Reaper cannon fodder produced by Reaper created 37 million years ago and what Harby is producing now. Given the same material (humans) they produce exactly the same kind of troops. It's of course logical, why change the formula that works, but I think that may also hint us that Reapers aren't very creative.

But still, how to defeat them... how does one exactly "out of the box" think a Reaper? Waiting incoming transmission...

Modifié par ZLurps, 20 février 2011 - 06:46 .

[LordShrike]

Might have strained something... Hates my browsing 'puter.

That creepy bit is not all that creepy when it comes to it; Reapers need maintenance too, having a husk with "screwdriver" is certainly a good idea... Now i got a little derailed because of that "reapers aren't very creative" Must remember to point out some things i runned into; this makes pretty good job at it:

http://social.biowar...5/index/6107770 towards the end it gets right down to it.

But here goes(as long as it does not hurt too bad.) Lessee if i can shorten this mess a bit. Main points in this mess of papers comes down to mathematical equations and how Reapers treat them; Only way to assure destruction of Reaper target is to ensure that Reapers have the playing field miss mapped. That would not entail employing some new, untested and unprepared tactic or strategy. Most likely anything we come up with has a counter in Reaper repository. (0.0005% +/- 0.0005%) Even those the Reapers can counter with superior Processing power. What would be required is this: (one example, the one with highest success rate. Still, it's only one shot even then...) Make sure Reapers are responding to a certain situation with certain numbers and certain tactics. i.e. Stage as accurate reproduction as you can of a previous engagement, with as accurate background as you can. (Reserves, Fleet comp, Race, Distances, on and on...) This should make Reapers BEGIN their engagement with same tactic; as long as you do the same. Next, you need not to employ superior firepower, BUT Threatening firepower(cabable of killing Reaper. IF allowed.) in a surprise attack and force ONE Reaper to back down, NOT FTL. Here comes the trick part: You disengage. This should make Reaper 'puters go 404. hopefully atleast for a minute or two. Now that the Reapers have themselves in a loop you can engage again. Exploiting holes in the strategies that the Reapers used in the last engagement. Keep in mind that this advantage will only last minutes, hopefully enough to "sink" one of them.

Reeh, my arm hurts again, had to shorten it even more i hoped would be neccesary. Main points still there. (Chancing gear!)

Finally some comedic relief you prolly saw already: http://social.biowar...5/index/6107770

[Moiaussi]

ZLurps wrote...

IIRC Saren got incotrinated because he found Sovereign on SPECTE mission. Don't recall any more details, it was in one of those ME novels.

I think what happened to Rachni was result of Sovereign indoctrinating one or more queens on planet because sonic waves can't travel in space. Electromagnetic pulses can but if that would be enough, Reaper wouldn't need to travel anywhere at the first place.

I guess what happened was that Sovvy got control of the queen or queens on some of the Rachni worlds or maybe in their ships and manipulated them to send that "yellow sour note".

I think Saren got indoctrination device from Sovvy to create Krogan army and intelligence gathering purposes. Or was it that he got schematics for one from elsewhere? His main goal was however to analyse indoctrination and develop countermeasure by reverse engineering it.

What comes to Harby assuming direct control of Collector drones, that has nothing to do with indoctrination per se. Collector drones are basically just very advanced husks, engineered to have accept "direct control" feature from the start.

I have few ideas about how indoctrination might actually work. As all we know about indoctrination is based on real physics, it might be possible to get some sort of estimation about effective area of influence.

Umm... the Rachni don't 'sing' via sound. If they did, the Queen wouldn't have taken over the dieing Asari to talk through. They are telepathic, and the implication from the discussion with the queen, telepathic over interstellar ranges. That is why there was no communicaiton possible in the Rachni war above and beyond any indoctrination. They have a completely different method of communications. They don't even need ship based transmissions. How else do you explain the Rachni 'hearing' the other queens' songs end?

As for the physics of it, well the same physics problem exists with 'direct control' and with all the real-time communications in ME. Accept that this is science fiction, not science, and that there will be some inexplicable abilities and/or tech.

Saying 'direct control' is not related to indoctrination is likewise just saying that. If they can control anything at that range, why not broadcast indoctrination waves, even if they have to do so via launched probes?

[LordShrike]

Moiaussi, accept that this is pseudo-science thread. (Or, it has been for the last few pages atleast.) So this is mainly discussion to understand those "inexplicable abilities and/or tech." Please provide something useful if you are going to post. Okay? Don't just point out the flaws; Say what's your take on them. That way we all get something from this.

Most of those points were discussed in previous posts with considerate detail, so...

[FaargAnNorgnal]

If Sovereign indoctrinated the rachni how come he didn't know where the Mu Relay was?

[LordShrike]

Who said it was Sovereign? Even if it was, Mu Relay was not something that needed to be known UNTIL Sovvy/Saren knew about the Conduit. There was no point in knowing it. Most likely Sovvy knew that the Rachni knew but did not care. Explains why Queen was resurrected in Noveria too, Nazara knew that the Rachni would have the location in their racial memory.

[jklinders]

I skipped the 8 pages of debate so apologies if I have repeated anyone's points.

We don't actually really know what the council knows or is doing about the presence of Harbinger style ships. However there is plenty of evidence that the three council races are not sitting on their heels quite as much as is believed. The Turian's reverse engineering of Harbinger's particle beam is a good example. The Asari based armour modifications and Mordin's musings on the STG investigating information on the Reapers all point to the council races doing things either independently or in cahoots to look at the problem. They just are not sharing with Shepard.

There is one very good reason why Shepard would be cut out of the loop. Cerberus. TIM makes it clear that he was spreading rumours that Shep was working for Cerberus. TIM's own Alliance connections separate Shepard from the Alliance, the rumours separate him from the council. Those defense towers on Horizon were not thrown up overnight. So the Alliance was looking into the disappearances and trying to take some steps.

There are no secrets in a nation more closely guarded than weapons tech research. The council might not even know anything at all about it, if the council doesn't know than it is easy for them to play stupid with Shep because they really do not know. Don't be too surprised if the council comes out slightly better prepared than it looks at this moment.

[LordShrike]

@jklinders:

Lot of points...

My answer to some of these; Advances in weapons research do not imply that Council races are preparing for the Reapers, it's just life as usual, not every thing in MEverse is about Reapers.

Preparation will not help, read last few pages atleast, okay? Helps you get on speed.

[ZLurps]

Moiaussi wrote...
Saying 'direct control' is not related to indoctrination is likewise just saying that. If they can control anything at that range, why not broadcast indoctrination waves, even if they have to do so via launched probes?

ZLurps wrote...
I think what happened to Rachni was result of Sovereign indoctrinating one or more queens on planet because sonic waves can't travel in space. Electromagnetic pulses can but if that would be enough, Reaper wouldn't need to travel anywhere at the first place.

Actually Rachni didn't needed to be indoctrinated, just semi Huskified. They were attack was pretty mindless. I think Sovvy was just one orchestrating it. I think it's like that, or because there was a hole.

Moiaussi wrote...
As for the physics of it, well the same physics problem exists with 'direct control' and with all the real-time communications in ME.

Harby used direct control feature via Collector General. In game science that could have been very well been similar kind of information channel as one between SR-2 and TIM.

Moiaussi wrote...
Accept that this is science fiction, not science, and that there will be some inexplicable abilities and/or tech.

Oh really? 

FaargAnNorgnal wrote...

If Sovereign indoctrinated the rachni how come he didn't know where the Mu Relay was?

I think Sovvy, (I think it's likely that it was Sovvy) corrupted then rather than indoctrinated them. Or there was a hole. 

Modifié par ZLurps, 21 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[LordShrike]

Accepting that "there was a hole" too may times leads to thread death.
We do not want that.
Moment of laxity leads to life time of heresy! Purge the unclean, Geth demand there must be pseudo-science!
Failing that, lets just use "invert logic" until we get some reasonable end result.

Modifié par LordShrike, 21 février 2011 - 09:24 .

[Moiaussi]

ZLurps wrote...

 @ LordShrikeMaybe someone else using  "MAPLE AFASIA BROWSER" Argh, not now...
And yep, I don't think effective range can be very large either. Codex says indotrination signals are subliminal, what  farmers experienced on Eden Prime is something else, maybe part of indoctrination signal but they weren't in the main area of influence.

The codex also says that Sovereign was built by the Geth. The codex is in game, not a meta encyclopedia of what players know. WHen in blazes did anyone in game other than maybe Saren get the operating manual for indoctrination to know any such thing?

And the smugglers on Eden didn't know they were being brainwashed, even if it was pounding in their heads. The captives on Vermire reported the same phenomenon. So did Benezia for that matter. Something can be subliminal but still contained within a louder signal.

For me it makes sense that what they perceived was Sovereign's infrasonic signal. Note: 

Conventional science doesn't apply unless the writers try to apply it. If it was sonic, why was it able to be discriminate on Vermire? The captives were hearing it but not the reasearchers or Shep's team.

[LordShrike]

@Moiaussi:

Precisely because it was sonic only captives could hear it. They were in cells, Shep was not. Writers may have not implied any IRL tech, that does not mean it could be explained by IRL tech. Your argument seems badly built, or it's my Bad Engrish that steps in again. but the first part seems to have no head or tail in it... No one said Indoc. signals are purely subliminal, quite the opposite.

[ZLurps]

This thread is pretty much (at least now) about how awesome the Reapers are. We hope that those who do not understand these magnificent beings and wish to destroy them would instead join us who understand and ascend towards better, brighter future Reapers offer for the humanity.

Or perhaps this is just an interesting way to kill time while waiting for the Arrival DLC and ME3.Then I'm curious about how BioWare is going to solve problem with Reapers in ME3 because they appear to be ridiculously overpowered in comparison even to combined galactic races. If BioWare can make a story without nerfing them (too much) and without known cliches like "upload Safari browser" the conclusion of ME trilogy is going to be... well, something else.

Also, I find it fun to collect information about Reapers and perhaps later compare what was discovered in this topic and other similar topics and compare that against what kind of Reapers we actually see in ME3. I'm not, and I guess LordShrike isn't either, trying to establish some sort of "canon" Reaper or try to tell developers what kind of Reapers there should be in ME3 but just study the lore. 


Umm... about indoctrination.
@LordShrike @ Moiaussi
English and ability to understand information in it's context... Doesn't help that one reason I started writing in these forums is that my English needs practice. :-D

I think it's very unlikely that writers were chosen infrasonic and ultrasonic waves together with  electromagnetic waves by accident.Actually I think that writers did amazing job with indoctrination. Husks are of course in the area of fiction, but what comes to signals there isn't any "because wizard did it" kind of stuff but it's all based on real life physics.
If someone would point a revolver to my head and demand me to guess what inspired BioWare writes who created Indoctrination, I would probably guess SONAR. Sonar is an example of a device that uses both infrasonic and ultrasonic frequencies and there are numerous studies that links whales radically chancing their behaviour and even going "mad" to naval military practices and use of military sonar.

Anyway, back to how awesome Reapers are:I came to think that it can be pretty useful for Reapers that infrasonic frequencies can travel over long distances. Remember what Wikipedia said about infrasound: "Infrasound has been known to cause feelings of awe or fear in humans. Since it is not consciously perceived, it can make people feel vaguely that supernatural events are taking place."

We though earlier about how a Reaper could land into a small town. Say if people weren't aware about the danger of Indoctrination, such feeling could make them come close to a Reaper and right into main indoctrination field. I can easily imagine that primitive civilisation would worship them as gods. Build temples near them and keep ceremonies with thousands of people. (Side note: It's kind of funny if you think what happened to the Geth)

Would people who live in the modern civilisation be safe? Depends... I just happened to read one interesting article about study regarding human flock like behaviour from Ars Technica. It's good read but I quote just what I think summarises the study:

Ars Technica wrote...Even though large groups of individuals may have their own thoughts and desires, when brought together, collective behavior spontaneously emerges. Also, what looks chaotic and complex at first glance can be explained, at least partially, by a simple set of mathematical rules.

Also regarding what I quoted above. Earlier we speculated about how many people a Reaper could indoctrinate once people are inside of it. We came to conclusion that there isn't any limit and this study seems to support that. Processing power of a Reaper and then at least partially it's just a simple set of mathematical rules!

Modifié par ZLurps, 22 février 2011 - 07:49 .