61 réponses à ce sujet

[Morgora]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Morgora wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

Don't the Dalish worship the creators not the old Gods who are actually dragons worshiped by the Tevinter imperium? or are they the same

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Are the "old elven gods" the same as the "Old Gods"? I'm so confused.

Dalish worship "the Creators". Not sure the game has ever said exactly what they are supposed to be but I could be wrong.  Tevinters worshiped the dragons and called them "the Old Gods".  I don't know if the dragon soul Morrigan wants to preserve is good or bad but i think Urthemiel was the Tevinter god of (was it Beauty?)  She doesn't want a corrupted baby, she wants the old soul as it was. 
Personally I think Flemeth sent her out to do this because Flemeth is an "old god" herself and might be trying to save her mate maybe? Yea just tossing that in from left field... Esp since the OGB turns out to be a boy, it adds more weight in my head to that hypothesis.

The history page is what I've been reading. It's here http://social.biowar...dex.php/History

Based on what's written there, I can't help but think that it's the same story told differently by a diverse group of peoples. For example: What if Arlathan is like the Golden City? What if Fen'Harel is like the Maker? Maybe I'm drawing parallels where there aren't any but it sure is intriguing to me.

I haven't read the books so I have no idea about any of the Tevinter gods. I didn't even know the OGB was actually born and a boy either! Is that also in the books?

[thesuperdarkone]

Morgora wrote...

I just had a thought. What if I played a Dalish Female? The throne goes to Anora. Alistair and the Dalish Female remain as Grey Wardens only. Is it too much to assume that the Dalish would not object to the Dark Ritual (since they do worship the Old Gods)?

 

Dalish don't worship the old gods, they worship the elven pantheon: http://dragonage.wik.../Elven_Pantheon

[Ferretinabun]

"I didn't even know the OGB was actually born and a boy either! Is that also in the books?"



That's revealed in Witch Hunt (or, at least, it's what Morrigan claims. No obvious reason to lie, but who knows with her?).

[Morgora]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Morgora wrote...

I just had a thought. What if I played a Dalish Female? The throne goes to Anora. Alistair and the Dalish Female remain as Grey Wardens only. Is it too much to assume that the Dalish would not object to the Dark Ritual (since they do worship the Old Gods)?

 

Dalish don't worship the old gods, they worship the elven pantheon: http://dragonage.wik.../Elven_Pantheon

Thanks for the link. Great info there. 

[HolyAvenger]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nope... sorry. Unfortunately, Bioware hasnt yet really made a happy ending for the females.... We can only hope they rectify this in DA2

A female Warden can have a happy ending by romancing Leliana or Zevran.

Exactly what I thought when I read the OP.

[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

I just had a thought. What if I played a Dalish Female? The throne goes to Anora. Alistair and the Dalish Female remain as Grey Wardens only. Is it too much to assume that the Dalish would not object to the Dark Ritual (since they do worship the Old Gods)?

There's an interesting topic about shapeshifting for the Dalish Warden when speaking to Morrigan, but we know so little about the Old Gods that it's hard to know the fact from fiction, and the truth from bias.

Morgora wrote...

frostajulie wrote...

Don't the Dalish worship the creators not the old Gods who are actually dragons worshiped by the Tevinter imperium? or are they the same

That's what I'm trying to figure out. Are the "old elven gods" the same as the "Old Gods"? I'm so confused.

There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

[Addai]

I don't think there is a happy ending. No matter what you still have the taint, you're going to live with nightmares and physical limitations and be drawn to the darkspawn and they to you. With Zevran you have assassins on your tail. With Leliana you might have Marjolaine or any number of old enemies in addition to all her other craziness. With Alistair you have all those Warden problems x2 even if he's not king. Morrigan- 'nuff said.

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

If the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones who were trapped after the fall of Arlathan, it's possible. It's all a matter of whether you trust Morrigan, though. The child is going to be reborn, after all - it won't be the Old God since the baby will be human and it won't be the Archdemon corrupted by the darkspawn. Unexpected and transcendent change is possible, after all. Given that the elves know little about the Forgotten Ones, it's all a matter of what your character thinks is the best course of action.

[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't think there is a happy ending. No matter what you still have the taint, you're going to live with nightmares and physical limitations and be drawn to the darkspawn and they to you. With Zevran you have assassins on your tail. With Leliana you might have Marjolaine or any number of old enemies in addition to all her other craziness. With Alistair you have all those Warden problems x2 even if he's not king. Morrigan- 'nuff said.

This yes.  I think you have to define what means "happiness" to you.  I like that there are no easy answers.  No matter what path you choose there are consequences.  You just have to make sure that you pick the path that is right for you.
Kind of like life, you don't know what's going to happen and you hopefully make the good days outnumber the bad because you will get both regardless of what you do.
I consider (while tragic) my US endings to be "happy".  My PC knew when she/he checked out that their friends were going to be okay and that Ferelden would be safe from the Blight.

[errant_knight]

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

Can you elaborate? Sounds like you know something I don't and probably should! 'Course based on past playthroughs, that will just make my Dalish feel more guilty about it than my Cousland rather than stopping her.

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

If the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones who were trapped after the fall of Arlathan, it's possible. It's all a matter of whether you trust Morrigan, though. The child is going to be reborn, after all - it won't be the Old God since the baby will be human and it won't be the Archdemon corrupted by the darkspawn. Unexpected and transcendent change is possible, after all. Given that the elves know little about the Forgotten Ones, it's all a matter of what your character thinks is the best course of action.

Good point. Maybe I can get away with it then...

[Morgora]

errant_knight wrote...

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

Can you elaborate? Sounds like you know something I don't and probably should! 'Course based on past playthroughs, that will just make my Dalish feel more guilty about it than my Cousland rather than stopping her.

Oh, I'm just speculating here. If the Old Gods are The Forgotten Ones, then performing the Dark Ritual is a huge no-no for a Dalish Elf who worships the Elven Pantheon (because The Forgotten Ones are the enemies of the Elven Pantheon). But, if I look at it the way LobselVith8 stated above, I might be able to reconcile going ahead with the Dark Ritual.

Modifié par Morgora, 11 février 2011 - 04:40 .

[Shinobu]

Morgora wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

Can you elaborate? Sounds like you know something I don't and probably should! 'Course based on past playthroughs, that will just make my Dalish feel more guilty about it than my Cousland rather than stopping her.

Oh, I'm just speculating here. If the Old Gods are The Forgotten Ones, then performing the Dark Ritual is a huge no-no for a Dalish Elf who worships the Elven Pantheon (because The Forgotten Ones are the enemies of the Elven Pantheon). But, if I look at it the way LobselVith8 stated above, I might be able to reconcile going ahead with the Dark Ritual.

Isn't Urthemiel the god of Beauty? Who can object to that?

[errant_knight]

Morgora wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
There are banished gods in elven lore, so it's possible they could be the same as the Old Gods worshipped by the Tevinter and villified by the Chantry of Andraste.

Oohh! That would be very interesting if the Old Gods were the same as The Forgotten Ones. And, after reading about the Elven Pantheon, I now know that my Dalish Elf Female would not agree to the Dark Ritual.

Can you elaborate? Sounds like you know something I don't and probably should! 'Course based on past playthroughs, that will just make my Dalish feel more guilty about it than my Cousland rather than stopping her.

Oh, I'm just speculating here. If the Old Gods are The Forgotten Ones, then performing the Dark Ritual is a huge no-no for a Dalish Elf who worships the Elven Pantheon (because The Forgotten Ones are the enemies of the Elven Pantheon). But, if I look at it the way LobselVith8 stated above, I might be able to reconcile going ahead with the Dark Ritual.

It's a lot simpler than that for my PCs. My Cousland is quite a believer in the Chantry and goes with the DR anyway, even though she's pretty sure it's blood magic, which she doesn't go for at all.. It pretty much boils down to 'how do I make sure Alistair doesn't die?'

Modifié par errant_knight, 11 février 2011 - 04:45 .

[HolyAvenger]

Doing the DR presuppose trusting Morrigan with a LOT of power. I can't bring myself to do that (though I haven't done a Morrimance playthrough yet).

[Gilsa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nope... sorry. Unfortunately, Bioware hasnt yet really made a happy ending for the females.... We can only hope they rectify this in DA2

A female Warden can have a happy ending by romancing Leliana or Zevran.

I remember DG responding to the complaints about the complicated romantic endings with Morrigan and Alistair and his response was if people wanted "happy endings," they could just pursue Zevran and Leliana instead.

And don't get your hopes up for happy-ever-afters in DA2 either. Even though he's only written Fenris for DA2, he is the head writer and oversees what others are doing. Just play the game, don't make choices just to "keep" a love interest. Do what feels right for your character. I understand what it means to have loved and lost!

David Gaider wrote...

I
suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to
love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would
probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

[Morgora]

Gilsa wrote...

I remember DG responding to the complaints about the complicated romantic endings with Morrigan and Alistair and his response was if people wanted "happy endings," they could just pursue Zevran and Leliana instead.

And don't get your hopes up for happy-ever-afters in DA2 either. Even though he's only written Fenris for DA2, he is the head writer and oversees what others are doing. Just play the game, don't make choices just to "keep" a love interest. Do what feels right for your character. I understand what it means to have loved and lost!

David Gaider wrote...

I suppose my problem is I don't believe in happy endings when it comes to
love. Anyone who's played in one of my tabletop campaigns would
probably wholeheartedly agree with that.

I'm not sure what that says about me. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie]

In my playthrough, Alistair became King (alone) and I sacrificed my Warden for Ferelden. My character did not have a romance with Alistair nor with any other character. I guess I wish there was just a little Princess Bride in there. The David Gaider quote pretty much seals my suspicion about DA2. It's sad to know that he doesn't believe love can have a happy ending. But, each person's experiences are unique. Anywho, if I like the demo, I'll buy the game... even if it means no happy ending again.

[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

In my playthrough, Alistair became King (alone) and I sacrificed my Warden for Ferelden. My character did not have a romance with Alistair nor with any other character. I guess I wish there was just a little Princess Bride in there. The David Gaider quote pretty much seals my suspicion about DA2. It's sad to know that he doesn't believe love can have a happy ending. But, each person's experiences are unique. Anywho, if I like the demo, I'll buy the game... even if it means no happy ending again.

The line about the Princess Bride reminds me of what Shale told me about storming the castle. I wonder what happened to her in Tevinter? Anyway, Gaider's not the only writer, though, so others have a hand in how it turns out. I know that he seemed to take a pro-Chantry position in regards to the mages in a DA2 thread, while another dev, Michael Hamilton, said (about the Magi boon being turned down):

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Really think about what you're saying.

"I asked and they said no!"

It's not impossible, that's all I'm saying.

[Corker]

I somehow missed it while playing my Dalish, but upon reflection... the Old Gods are supposedly the ones (Dumat in particular) who taught the humans blood magic - the source of the power they used to destroy Arlathan, and then a devouring maw into which elven slaves were fed for a thousand years.



Forgotton Ones or not, helping the Old Gods sounds like it ought to be a 'no.'

[maxernst]

Isn't Urthemiel the god of Beauty? Who can object to that?

Ever read any Greek mythology?  Would you let Aphrodite into the world? 

Modifié par maxernst, 11 février 2011 - 02:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Corker wrote...

I somehow missed it while playing my Dalish, but upon reflection... the Old Gods are supposedly the ones (Dumat in particular) who taught the humans blood magic - the source of the power they used to destroy Arlathan, and then a devouring maw into which elven slaves were fed for a thousand years.

Forgotton Ones or not, helping the Old Gods sounds like it ought to be a 'no.'

The problem is we know very little fact and have an abundance of lore on what they may be. We know that the Old Gods' song can be heard by the darkspawn and that it draws them to the Old God because the song is beautiful, but we really don't have anything to prove that they're speaking to the mages or providing them with knowledge. I doubt the Old Gods forced the Tevinters to behave as they did; blood magic isn't evil (as Grey Warden mages have used it to combat the darkspawn), but any power can be used to harm people. It's impossible to say what the truth is about the Old Gods with such limited information, either way. And given Morrigan's respect for the Dalish when we enter the camp for refusing to submit to human rule, I doubt her goals are the same as the Tevinter's were.

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The line about the Princess Bride reminds me of what Shale told me about storming the castle. I wonder what happened to her in Tevinter? Anyway, Gaider's not the only writer, though, so others have a hand in how it turns out. I know that he seemed to take a pro-Chantry position in regards to the mages in a DA2 thread, while another dev, Michael Hamilton, said (about the Magi boon being turned down):

Michael Hamilton wrote...

Since when has any dictatorship ever been turned over by asking politely?

Really think about what you're saying.

"I asked and they said no!"

It's not impossible, that's all I'm saying.

Yeah, Shale's backstory left several questions unanswered. As for the Princess Bride references, I was lucky enough to catch two of them in my playthrough. In addition to Shale's "have fun storming the castle" line, earlier in the game, during the quest Sten's Lost Sword, I got a dialogue option to say "Sten, tear his arms off".

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Corker wrote...

I somehow missed it while playing my Dalish, but upon reflection... the Old Gods are supposedly the ones (Dumat in particular) who taught the humans blood magic - the source of the power they used to destroy Arlathan, and then a devouring maw into which elven slaves were fed for a thousand years.

Forgotton Ones or not, helping the Old Gods sounds like it ought to be a 'no.'

The problem is we know very little fact and have an abundance of lore on what they may be. We know that the Old Gods' song can be heard by the darkspawn and that it draws them to the Old God because the song is beautiful, but we really don't have anything to prove that they're speaking to the mages or providing them with knowledge. I doubt the Old Gods forced the Tevinters to behave as they did; blood magic isn't evil (as Grey Warden mages have used it to combat the darkspawn), but any power can be used to harm people. It's impossible to say what the truth is about the Old Gods with such limited information, either way. And given Morrigan's respect for the Dalish when we enter the camp for refusing to submit to human rule, I doubt her goals are the same as the Tevinter's were.

Well, I dunno about that. Here's an excerpt about the Old Gods...

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods

What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very mysterious. What is certain is that the Chantry teaches that the Old Gods were false. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individual's mind would, and they were able to contact the Magisters and teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them. It was for this reason that the magisters entered the Golden City in a failed attempt to usurp the Maker's throne, inadvertently causing the First Blight.

And about blood magic...

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Blood_Mage

A blood mage is a mage who employs dark rites, originally taught to mortals by demons, in order to access more powerful magic. A blood mage must be willing to sacrifice his own life force or that of others in order to wield this power.

Modifié par Morgora, 11 février 2011 - 03:27 .