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[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

Well, I dunno about that. Here's an excerpt about the Old Gods...

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods

What the Old Gods actually are and their relation to the Maker is very mysterious. What is certain is that the Chantry teaches that the Old Gods were false. They turned mortals from worship of the Maker, recognized as the "First Sin". As a result, the Maker imprisoned them underground. Their minds continued to roam the Fade like any other dreaming individual's mind would, and they were able to contact the Magisters and teach them to use magic in hope that the magisters might free them. It was for this reason that the magisters entered the Golden City in a failed attempt to usurp the Maker's throne, inadvertently causing the First Blight.

It's Chantry lore, though. There's no canon information about who the Old Gods really are, only perspectives that are colored by religious beliefs. I note how interesting it is that both the Chantry and the Dalish religions both have banished gods, but the problem is it isn't really tell us the truth. In Dalish lore, the Forgotten Ones are the antagonist gods, and in the Chantry lore, the Old Gods are false gods. We have no proof that the Tevinter Magisters went into the Golden City, especially from a religion that's centered on a woman who fiercely fought against the Tevinter Imperium. Also, even the entry notes that the Old Gods are mysterious.

Morgora wrote...

And about blood magic...

http://dragonage.wik...wiki/Blood_Mage

A blood mage is a mage who employs dark rites, originally taught to mortals by demons, in order to access more powerful magic. A blood mage must be willing to sacrifice his own life force or that of others in order to wield this power.

Except the codex entries and summaries are all based on personal persectives from the universe of DA, not canon; even the entry about the Old Gods says they taught the Tevinter Magisters magic, and we know they built an empire on misusing the power of blood magic. The same blood magic that Grey Wardens use to give them an edge against the armies of darkspawn they fight against.

[Addai]

Morgora wrote...
In my playthrough, Alistair became King (alone) and I sacrificed my Warden for Ferelden. My character did not have a romance with Alistair nor with any other character. I guess I wish there was just a little Princess Bride in there. The David Gaider quote pretty much seals my suspicion about DA2. It's sad to know that he doesn't believe love can have a happy ending. But, each person's experiences are unique. Anywho, if I like the demo, I'll buy the game... even if it means no happy ending again.

I tend to agree with him that bittersweet or even bitter resolutions make for better stories.  Having things tied up too neatly feels contrived in a world that is supposed to be dark and complicated.  I still feel like all my Wardens got happyish endings.  It's more of a happiness within the compromises and difficulties.

[Corker]

Call me crazy, but the Tevinter Imperium worshiped the Old Gods for a thousand years. Kind of like how we know today which Roman gods were in charge of what, I'd kind of suspect that the remaining manuscripts and temples would give some indication of how the Tevinters viewed the situation.



I will gladly acknowledge that it could be myth rather than truth; I don't really suspect humanity IRL got fire from Prometheus. But as a Dalish poking around the human world, where every possible authority I can consult tells me Dumat and his tribe helped conquer and subjugate my people, Imma gonna be less than totally keen on helping them out.



FWIW, the Joining appears to be in the same 'grey area' as the spell Finn employs in Witch Hunt, and the phylacteries used by the Chantry - blood is a component, but blood does not power the magic. If you mean Warden mages using straight-up blood magic, Avernus-style... well, it's not a requirement that you use it to stop the Blight.

[LobselVith8]

Corker wrote...

Call me crazy, but the Tevinter Imperium worshiped the Old Gods for a thousand years. Kind of like how we know today which Roman gods were in charge of what, I'd kind of suspect that the remaining manuscripts and temples would give some indication of how the Tevinters viewed the situation.

I will gladly acknowledge that it could be myth rather than truth; I don't really suspect humanity IRL got fire from Prometheus. But as a Dalish poking around the human world, where every possible authority I can consult tells me Dumat and his tribe helped conquer and subjugate my people, Imma gonna be less than totally keen on helping them out.

FWIW, the Joining appears to be in the same 'grey area' as the spell Finn employs in Witch Hunt, and the phylacteries used by the Chantry - blood is a component, but blood does not power the magic. If you mean Warden mages using straight-up blood magic, Avernus-style... well, it's not a requirement that you use it to stop the Blight.

Except Dumat didn't order the Tevinter Imperium to enslave the elves - the entire story is that magic was given in an attempt to free them from their prisons, not enslave people or abuse magical knowledge. It's also a fable that could have some truth in it, or none at all. As for the examples you cited, David Gaider called the phylacteries blood magic at PAX. The Joining also involves Archdemon blood, darkspawn blood, and magic, so it's blood magic. Duncan has also said that some Wardens have resorted to using blood magic to stop the darkspawn, so I don't see how it's evil - any ability can be misused, after all.

[mousestalker]

It all depends on what you call blood magic and where you draw the line. Phylacteries are clearly acceptable whereas sacrificing slaves to fuel mind control spells is not acceptable. Everything else falls somewhere in between. And I'm having flashbacks of law school here, because the whole issue cries out for a 'reasonable person' test.

[LobselVith8]

mousestalker wrote...

It all depends on what you call blood magic and where you draw the line. Phylacteries are clearly acceptable whereas sacrificing slaves to fuel mind control spells is not acceptable. Everything else falls somewhere in between. And I'm having flashbacks of law school here, because the whole issue cries out for a 'reasonable person' test.

Except there is no line, it's all blood magic. Phylacteries are blood magic, the Joining is blood magic, and all it means is that blood is used to fuel the spells rather than mana. The same kind of blood magic that was routinely abused by the Tevinter Magisters is the same kind that Grey Warden mages have used to save the world over and over again. For a hypothetical, it's the same kind of blood magic that could have been used to prevent Vaughan from kidnapping the women out of the Alienage.

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the codex entries and summaries are all based on personal persectives from the universe of DA, not canon; even the entry about the Old Gods says they taught the Tevinter Magisters magic, and we know they built an empire on misusing the power of blood magic. The same blood magic that Grey Wardens use to give them an edge against the armies of darkspawn they fight against.

You know what's really weird? I just did the Dalish origin story. In the starter quest, your character and another clan member go check out a cave. The clan member states that the cave looks like a human settlement but with elven artifacts. Then, he stops near a statue (like this one dragonage.wikia.com/index.php) and states that it's a "statue of our people". Aren't those the same statues that are seen in areas where the blood mages and darkspawn are?

[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the codex entries and summaries are all based on personal persectives from the universe of DA, not canon; even the entry about the Old Gods says they taught the Tevinter Magisters magic, and we know they built an empire on misusing the power of blood magic. The same blood magic that Grey Wardens use to give them an edge against the armies of darkspawn they fight against.

You know what's really weird? I just did the Dalish origin story. In the starter quest, your character and another clan member go check out a cave. The clan member states that the cave looks like a human settlement but with elven artifacts. Then, he stops near a statue (like this one dragonage.wikia.com/index.php) and states that it's a "statue of our people". Aren't those the same statues that are seen in areas where the blood mages and darkspawn are?

Yes, they are. I've wondered if it had any importance or if it implied some ties to Tevinter (I thought maybe the blood mages could be associated with the Tevinters from the Unrest in the Alienage quest), but it could simply be the devs re-using the same models (which is why "Greagoir" is the barkeep in Awakening).

[Morgora]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, they are. I've wondered if it had any importance or if it implied some ties to Tevinter (I thought maybe the blood mages could be associated with the Tevinters from the Unrest in the Alienage quest), but it could simply be the devs re-using the same models (which is why "Greagoir" is the barkeep in Awakening).

Interesting! Since they are mostly found underground, I wonder if they are portions of the Arlathan ruins? I think it is possible that there are ties to the Tevinter peoples... especially before being known officially as the Tevinter Imperium.

[Gilsa]

Addai67 wrote...

Morgora wrote...
In my playthrough, Alistair became King (alone) and I sacrificed my Warden for Ferelden. My character did not have a romance with Alistair nor with any other character. I guess I wish there was just a little Princess Bride in there. The David Gaider quote pretty much seals my suspicion about DA2. It's sad to know that he doesn't believe love can have a happy ending. But, each person's experiences are unique. Anywho, if I like the demo, I'll buy the game... even if it means no happy ending again.

I tend to agree with him that bittersweet or even bitter resolutions make for better stories.  Having things tied up too neatly feels contrived in a world that is supposed to be dark and complicated.  I still feel like all my Wardens got happyish endings.  It's more of a happiness within the compromises and difficulties.

Got dumped by Gorim and Alistair in the same game and returned to a weak Orzammar king after all that. GO MEEEEE! 

[sevalaricgirl]

ejoslin wrote...

kya169 wrote...

Morgora wrote...

I've played through the human noble female (HNF) twice.The first passthrough was not very satisfying as I was trying to learn game mechanics and made some bad choices, so I quit shortly after the Landsmeet. The second passthrough, I played all the way to the end. I just want to know if there is a happy ending for the Grey Warden and Alistair without some dubious way of achieving it. In my travels, I've found two disturbing options (1) If my HNF romances Alistair, Morrigan wants to conduct a ritual before the final battle. (2) If my HNF does not romance Alistair, Morrigan wants to bed Alistair. I did not select either option but, from what I understand, both lead to having the Archdemon's soul transferred into the unborn child because Morrigan wants an untainted Old God to be reborn. Is there truly no other way for Alistair and the Grey Warden to be together in the end?


Btw, I only have Origins; Warden's Peak and the Stone Prisoner DLC.

Nope... sorry.  Unfortunately, Bioware hasnt yet really made a happy ending for the females....  We can only hope they rectify this in DA2

Well, I disagree with this!  My warden was very very happy with Zevran.  She ended Origins engaged to him, and as far as I know, travelled with him for awhile, then perhaps they went and took over the crows

I still don't think the dark ritual precludes a happy ending with Alistair.  That's not the ending of the romance -- it's what enables the romance to continue.  honestly, if me or my husband was going to die unless he had string free sex with a woman he didn't like (since we dont' have old gods, we just have to pretend here), I'd give him a bottle of wine and push him into the bedroom with her

I agree 100%.  I always have Alistair do the DR because the DR is small potatos compared to the rest of your life together.

[LobselVith8]

Morgora wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Yes, they are. I've wondered if it had any importance or if it implied some ties to Tevinter (I thought maybe the blood mages could be associated with the Tevinters from the Unrest in the Alienage quest), but it could simply be the devs re-using the same models (which is why "Greagoir" is the barkeep in Awakening).

Interesting! Since they are mostly found underground, I wonder if they are portions of the Arlathan ruins? I think it is possible that there are ties to the Tevinter peoples... especially before being known officially as the Tevinter Imperium.

Based on the Arcane phylactery, the spirit does refer to humans and an unseen "evil." It seems that elves and humans might have lived together and made the ancient temple you see in the Dalis Origin.