461 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Terror_K wrote...

But simply saying that is not entirely accurate, because it's not just that in ME2 they took away control and choice from the player, and it's not just that they made so much automated, linear and shallow to the point of it being almost completely pointless, but it's the way they did it and the way it was presented as well. Mass Effect 2 didn't only feel like "Baby's First RPG" in function most of the time, but also in form.

Hate to burst your bubble, Terror, but while playing ME2 I actually found myself thinking a lot more carefully about how to distribute my skill points, what weapons to equip, what squadmates to bring, what quest order I should take, what "moral decisions" I should make, and how I should tactically approach each mission.

There was less stuff, sure, but it was smarter stuff, IMO.  I barely had to think at all in ME1--everything just took longer.

ME2's not perfect, of course: the universe felt too small and boxed in, there weren't enough customization options, the levels were too linear, exploration and planet scanning took up too much time and money, etc.  However, I never felt like it was "baby's first" RPG.  In fact, it was a very cerebral and rewarding experience for me.  You can pitch a fit about how ME2 was "dumbed down," but I sure as hell don't agree with you.

But I'll be the first to admit that the recruit-loyalty-repeat structure and Spandex in Space need to go.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 10 février 2011 - 10:46 .

[Kusy]

Terror_K wrote...

Especially with Gears 3 on the way late in the year.

I'm sure it's gonna have incredibly innovative and groundbreaking gameplay and mechanics.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 10 février 2011 - 10:48 .

[Haristo]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

BOTH. You can still have richer RPG elements with lots of (improved!) pew-pew.

This ! Borderlands prooved us you can have an interresting gearing system with a shooter sequences ON OPEN WORLDED MAPS ! BioWare can equal and top that system. a nice Between two (ME1 and ME2) will be perfect : awesome Gears of War inspired Pew Pew, and classical RPG systems.

*But I need customization like the second game, it was awesome* <3

[Epic777]

I hate this question. What defines an one RPG cannot simply define another RPG. Example; Me2 is not an RPG because you cannot customize your party members. With that definition Planescape Torment ceases to be an RPG (Only two characters upgrade armor, 4/8 of the charcters don't actually change weapons). With Planescape, Deus Ex 1, Bioshock and System Shock a player doesn't choose who they play as.

Modifié par Epic777, 10 février 2011 - 11:24 .

[rubyreader]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

DaPinkMenace wrote...

On a side note, better dance moves, I think everyone can agree that an Alliance Commander, a spectre, and the symbol of humanity should be able to bust some sweet moves.

I am opposed to this.

Shepard is not Shepard without the godawful dance moves.

In Shep's defense, most of the other dancers aren't in armor and loaded with weapons...

[Val Seleznyov]

The lack of an inventory doesn't have any real bearing on the rpg elements. Fretting over which upgrade to use isn't playing a role, it's micro-management. Having completed the first Mass Effect without switching my upgrades on the hardest difficulty led me to believe that it's completely unnecessary.



With ME2, the weapons behaved in different ways so it required much more in the way of thought to decide on a loadout at the start of a mission.



The convulted inventory system just got in my way to play as Shepard in ME1, and the level up was needlessly hefty. The sharper ME2 is system is preferable.

[morrie23]

I'd take 'richer' RPG elements (whatever that means) in ME3. But to be honest, as long as ME3 has a better story than ME2, I could live with what we got in ME2 (minus the mission complete screens and the constant reminders to press this button now!).

[DaPinkMenace]

It's not necessarily that the inventory screen makes an RPG, it's just a recurring game system in many RPG's. In Mass Effect 2, the only considerations I took into account were team specialties (biotics, tech, toughness) and whether or not to bring a nuke gun with me.

[Gleym]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

BOTH. You can still have richer RPG elements with lots of (improved!) pew-pew.

Just because it can be done, doesn't mean Bioware will actually bother doing it, sadly. Just like so many other things on the 'could have done differently/better if we bothered to' list regarding Mass Effect.

[Aedan_Cousland]

I love a good RPG, but I hope to god ME3 doesn't go back to ME1's equipment system. It was poorly executed, cumbersome, and time consuming. You shouldn't have to spend 20 minutes of playing time occasionally dumping excess gear and outfitting your squad. In that sense ME2 was an improvement, although there could have been more options, particularly with your squad's armor. In ME3 I hope there are more sets of armor for your squadmates or they get the same customization feature as Shep.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Will it blend? That is the question.

(Sorry I had to.)



-Polite

[Sairiwen]

[rant]
I think Mass Effect series may have established a new direction CRPG evolution: one that emphasizes importance of storytelling, immersion, cinematic experience and forgoes many aspects of traditional mechanics that support/provide means of roleplaying.
I think it is a good development.
I do not think it invalidates or diminishes traditional mechanics, etc.

It took some time for me to adapt to new RP support system in ME2.
I still don't like some of that changes, though, luckily (for me, at least), they are rather tied to (new) lore elements and will not necessarily found their way in some form into other games that may follow aforementioned direction of CRPG evolution.
I even loathed some of the changes - and few of them even do not fall into previously mentioned "still don't like" cathegory, possibly because I understood (started to feel?) they are integral to this specific implementation of said mechanics in ME2.

I think Baldur's Gate games are wonderful creations in many aspects. As is Neverwinter Nights. And Knights of the Old Republic.
All that games had RP support systems based on AD&D rules. It is not a bad thing, nor it is a good thing - it is a consequence of some PnP RPG players deciding years ago to make computer games based on rules they were using in PnP games. For fun. Not as a devious plan to provoke holy wars 25 or more friggin years in future.
[/rant]



Anyway, I have a bad feeling about this I saw a thread rising similar questions, both about present and upcoming games. A few times. And I'm a newcomer to the forums...
So I'll add my voice to the choir - moar RPG elements in ME3!

[alan614]

I do hope that ME3 would have more RPG elements. ME2 was an interesting shooter, but the flow of the story didn't vary much outside of combat. As playing an adept, I didn't notice any special conversation options or interactions that catered to me playing the class. Also, the persuasion option seemed to have be determined more on how Paragon or Renegade you are instead of determining just how eloquent you built YOUR Shepard to be.



For me role playing games are more than either just statistics/mechanics or great storytelling individually, but rather how the two interact. I feel this is why ME2 is sorely limiting as an RPG as the only character statistic I've noticed the affects conversations (or even events in the game in general) was the Paragon/Renegade rating, all the others were combat based. You should be able to role play the character more richly and grow the character your playing in your own way. You should be able to decide to build your character as a savant in combat but a moron in politics and vice-versa. We've basically been given a Shepard that possessed the same level of intelligence and cunning no matter how you leveled up. You just needed to be a good-two shoes or a jerk to be persuasive. There should also be stealth missions that are especially available for Infiltrators and such... I didn't get to play the infiltrator though so I don't know if this exists.



With all I've said however, I was still able to enjoy the game. The story was is okay, even though the universe and the big baddy reminded me heavily of the star control series. I was also allowed to be invested in my character as I can carry him over through the trilogy making me feel that my character affected the universe greatly rather than just being side-note.

[Vena_86]

It is all a matter of defenition. What many game genres borrow of the RPG genre for years is the concept of having player/character progression and customization.

Although Bioshock 1 and 2 are not even considered RPGs, and don't have any experience or skillpoints, the ammount of customization you get and the feeling of progression you have is beyond or on par with ME1 and lightyears ahead of ME2.

I don't need skill points. I don't need to compare numbers and look at charts, but I want to be able to adjust my character to my prefered gameplay style or try out different "builds". I want to feel like I am really getting stronger and in the end feel like the challenges from the beginning are easy to overcome while things that appeared impossible at first can be mastered later on.

ME2 lacked all of that. Playing as a soldier (on insanity) I was pretty much just using the same powers (adrenalin rush, concussive shot) the same weapons (mattock for 80% of the time) and the same set of armor for the whole game. The upgrade system just made everything gradually better without giving me real feedback about individual upgrades, since I had no reason to even care, as I can get everything without any consideration. Furthermore, the upgrades were very unimaginative. Some more percent here, some more percent there... and in the end the game still plays exactly the same as in the beginning.
Bioshocks "tonics" offer more meaningfull customization than ME2s pointless upgrade system, the underused armor parts system and power progression combined. Additionally Bioshock still has weapon modding, which is very satisfying and it's own version of powers (plasmids). In Bioshock 2 increased levels of plasmids don't just make them stronger but actually add more diversity to the gameplay.
I am not saying Bioshock is a better game, but I am saying that it is better at implementing key RPG strengths into the overall game design while beeing intuitive and easy to handle, which is probably what ME2 wanted to be but failed due to the lack of depth and diversity.

Modifié par Vena_86, 11 février 2011 - 08:13 .

[StElmo]

While loot is cool. It is only cool in non-linear worlds. I just don't see the point in having chests you can't open in Mass Effect, if the level is going to be "move from point A to point B", which is what allows ME to be so cinematic.



I like role playing elements that effect combat, but I really don't want finding loot and having to manage weapons etc. when it's such a linear game.



If it was an open world game, you would think RPG elements would work better, because you would have to plan the adventure your self. But seeing as Mass Effect is an open game packaged as linear missions, RPG elements feel like boring chores, then explorative adventures.



If that makes sense?



ME2 was perfect except for the mining and the lack of Mako-esque missions.

[Gatt9]

IMO they need alot more Mass Effect and alot less Mass Effect 2 in ME3.



ME was an RPG, with your character's skills and progression having a direct effect on the game. It featured an open, explorable universe with a compelling story and meaningfull interaction with NPC's.



ME2 was a horrible shooter, completely dependent on the Player's skills for all aspects, with a dodgy inconsistent story, no opportunity for character development or customization, and blaring "Level finished!" screens just in case you missed the fact that they had turned it into Doom with a story. No exploration, the existing systems removed to be replaced with an absolutely horrid "Scanning" mini-game instead of being developed to reduce/remove flaws.



If they want to sell me a copy of ME3, they're going to have to make an RPG this time. Which means alot more ME in the game. They tricked me out of $60 last time, this time I'll be waiting for the Player Reviews before I buy. I buy Bioware games to play RPGs, if I want shooters, I'm going to be looking to ID, Valve, Visceral, Bungie, and Epic. Bioware's shooter made it very obvious to me that they shouldn't be doing shooters.



As far as "Cinematic" goes, Bioware really should pay attention to Final Fantasy 13. It was "Cinematic", I hit the X button 100,000 times, never got to use any other buttons, every 4 minutes I got a cutscene, and to this date I'm still trying to figure out how it qualifies as a game. The whole thing was "Push X alot to get to the next cutscene!" as I walked along a straight line.



Problem with "Cinematic" is, people aren't intending to buy a movie, they're intending to buy a game. So what you're selling needs to be a game first.

[Dreggon]

I'm hoping for an RPG as good as Deus Ex, combined with the awesomeness that is Mass Effect. Harassed some guy in ME1? Expect it to bite you in the ass come ME3.

[Chaos Gate]

Gatt9 wrote...

IMO they need alot more Mass Effect and alot less Mass Effect 2 in ME3.

ME was an RPG, with your character's skills and progression having a direct effect on the game. It featured an open, explorable universe with a compelling story and meaningfull interaction with NPC's.

ME2 was a horrible shooter, completely dependent on the Player's skills for all aspects, with a dodgy inconsistent story, no opportunity for character development or customization, and blaring "Level finished!" screens just in case you missed the fact that they had turned it into Doom with a story. No exploration, the existing systems removed to be replaced with an absolutely horrid "Scanning" mini-game instead of being developed to reduce/remove flaws.

If they want to sell me a copy of ME3, they're going to have to make an RPG this time. Which means alot more ME in the game. They tricked me out of $60 last time, this time I'll be waiting for the Player Reviews before I buy. I buy Bioware games to play RPGs, if I want shooters, I'm going to be looking to ID, Valve, Visceral, Bungie, and Epic. Bioware's shooter made it very obvious to me that they shouldn't be doing shooters.

My sentiments exactly.

To me, ME2 was just a dumb shooter with sex scenes, and I've never been so disappointed with a game in my life. My expectations were so high after the first ME, which was brilliant, and to have them dashed like that made me feel completely dudded by Bioware.

I sincerely hope that ME3 is more like ME and not like ME2, or else I won't be buying it.

[Skydive]

^This

I didn't discover ME1 until a while after 2 was already out. Played 1, absolutely loved it, bought a copy for a friend and recommended it highly to other gamer friends who then bought it.

After a fair few play-throughs I went and bought the sequel without hesitating or bothering to read any reviews as I felt that Bioware - a company I held in pretty high esteem - couldn't possibly churn out a bad sequel to such a great game... big mistake. Massive mistake!

After a few hours of playing/raging/head-holding I dug out both the booklets that came with the games to compare the development teams. I was utterly convinced that the development of ME2 had to have been farmed out to a second rate studio in some smelly, backwards third-world country.

I've since dissuaded a few people from buying ME2 in an effort to spared them the crushing disappointment I felt and I will NOT be buying a copy of ME3 at launch. I will look very carefully before I leap. Frankly I doubt they will be taking the game back in a direction I like and I will just go on living in a universe that only has one Mass Effect game.

ME2 (and DA:O too for that matter) cost Bioware a lot of my respect/consumer confidence.

Modifié par Skydive, 11 février 2011 - 12:34 .

[bjdbwea]

A perhaps more interesting question is this: Why is it so important to some of the defenders of ME 2 that it should be called an RPG?

To everyone who knows a bit about RPGs, it's obvious that ME 2 has lost much of what makes an RPG. BioWare pretty much admitted this themselves, they said that it was necessary to sell more copies. So why do some people feel the need to try to explain that fact away? It's okay if you prefer other genres, like shooters. It's okay if you like ME 2. There's no need to justify your liking of ME 2 to others or yourself by trying to pretend that it's a great example of an RPG. It's not, so what, all that matters is that you enjoy it. Be glad that you do, and that you are not one of the people who care about the RPG stuff and were disappointed with ME 2.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 11 février 2011 - 12:47 .

[internaty inmortelaty]

I just want to be able to use all guns again not be limeted to guns by class:(

[CannotCompute]

I'd definitely like to see more emphasis on the RPG aspect (a la ME1). Looting bodies, more skills to invest in, gaining XP per kill, more information about weapons (f.e. damage) and armor...

Things I'd also like to see: Weapon mods, Weapon Workbench to apply the mods, buyable armors for Shep's teammates, armor mods (also appliable by using the Workbench), elevators (and such) > loading screens, more squadmate banter

Modifié par CannotCompute, 11 février 2011 - 01:05 .

[Nachituy]

Saying that mass effect 2 is not an rpg because it dosent have inventory or more skills/xp , its like saying a car game is not a car game because it dosent have a cockpit view

By the definition of rpg , me2 falls as a pure rpg , dose it have all the extra stuff as other rpg ? no it dosent , that dosent make it less of an rpg , but it will be nice if me3 have more stuff we can customize

Modifié par Nachituy, 11 février 2011 - 01:08 .

[morrie23]

CannotCompute wrote...

I'd definitely like to see more emphasis on the RPG aspect (a la ME1). Looting bodies, more skills to invest in, gaining XP per kill, more information about weapons (f.e. damage) and armor...

Things I'd also like to see: Weapon mods, Weapon Workbench to apply the mods, buyable armors for Shep's teammates, armor mods (also appliable by using the Workbench), elevators (and such) > loading screens, more squadmate banter

Weapon Workbench you say?

[james1976]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

BOTH. You can still have richer RPG elements with lots of (improved!) pew-pew.

Very true. 

Also, on the comfirm features thread under promises it says there would be more RPG elements in ME3.  I'm hoping that promise is kept.