153 réponses à ce sujet

[ZoSo159]

*Spoiler*


I do not think he could help you fight since Anderson shot both his knees point blank with a shotgun.  I still think it would be awsome to meet him though he was my favorite Cerberus operative other than Grayson.  He got the job done and he showed Aria who's boss.

[AdmiralCheez]

I say to Kai Leng the same thing I said to Kahlee Sanders: Ew. Stay in the damn book.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 11 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[Rune-Chan]

AwesomeName wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

AwesomeName wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

How's he a sociopath?.

Kai Leng is a tactician.  Just because you wouldn't do some things he's done doesn't make him wrong or too extreme.

Those aren't mutually exclusive though.

http://www.google.co...lient=firefox-a

He's an absolute clean cut case of a sociopath.

Kai Leng doesn't have an antisocial disorder.
So Kai Leng is immoral because its not what a Paragon would do?
Kai Leng killed Aria's daughter because he's an assasin if he left her alive he would be a terrible assasin
Kai Leng never takes pleasure in killing aliens its just business

You're missing the point, he completely lacks remorse when he kills Aria's daughter.  If a paragon killed her for the same reasons, they would feel bad about it.  He doesn't.  That is clear cut sociopathic behaviour.  He almost never has a feeling other than disgust for aliens.  Plus he used a kid as nothing more than a weapon - there was zero empathy and zero regret when the child was shot - he cared more about revenge against Anderson and his own survival, without even the slightest thought of that child.  He is full of bile and hatred, and the only reason he doesn't murder every alien he sees is because he's not stupid.  But if he could get away with it - he would.

Exactly.

He is a sociopath not a psychopath. Two very different things.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 11 février 2011 - 06:38 .

[jbblue05]

AwesomeName wrote...

[You're missing the point, he completely lacks remorse when he kills Aria's daughter.  If a paragon killed her for the same reasons, they would feel bad about it.  He doesn't.  That is clear cut sociopathic behaviour.  He almost never has a feeling other than disgust for aliens.  Plus he used a kid as nothing more than a weapon - there was zero empathy and zero regret when the child was shot - he cared more about revenge against Anderson and his own survival, without even the slightest thought of that child.  He is full of bile and hatred, and the only reason he doesn't murder every alien he sees is because he's not stupid.  But if he could get away with it - he would.

Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now.  Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

Sociopath behavior  is all perspective and determined by the individual.  You say sociopath I say business first..
The kid is 15 years old, the best biotic in the school
You should read pg. 328 Kail Leng tells Nick the 15 year old
"Are you sure you're up to it? It's not going to be easy."
"I can do it," Nick swore

Kai Leng didn't force Nick to do anything, it was Nick's own free will.
Nick only got shot because he saw Kahllee and didn't attack Grayson. Kai Leng can't sit their and have regret when Grayson needs to be killed.

[Xilizhra]

Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now. Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

I must note that all of them shoot first.

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now. Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

I must note that all of them shoot first.

Shepard goes out of his/her way to engage those mercs

[Aedan_Cousland]

Lance Gardner wrote...

Remind me who he is?

Former Alliance, and had been a N7 Spec Ops Marine like Shep. He's now one of the Illusive Man's best operatives, and an assassin. He's an a bad-ass that makes people disappear on the Illusive Man's orders. He's also a human supremacist that hates aliens, an all around jerk-ass, and a downright evil bastard.

(SPOILER AHEAD FOR THOSE THAT HAVENT READ THE BOOKS, AND WANT TO)











He also murders one of Aria's daughters, by slitting her throat while she's sleeping. She wasn't the target but happened to be the lover of the target slated for assassination, and was in the target's bed when Kai Leng slipped into his apartment.


I'd love to see him in ME3 (or the DLC) but only as an enemy. My canon Shep despises Cerberus and everything it stands for, and blew up the Collector base, so for my game at least I would think it would be more likely that Kai Leng would be sent to kill Shepard than to join his team. Even if he was sent to join my Shep's team, he wouldn't be wanted. He couldn't be trusted. His loyalty would be first and foremost to the Illusive Man, rather than Shepard.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 11 février 2011 - 06:58 .

[Xilizhra]

jbblue05 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now. Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

I must note that all of them shoot first.

Shepard goes out of his/her way to engage those mercs

I can only think of one situation in which this happens, and that's the attempt to rescue Garrus (and arguably attempting to rescue Oriana). Other than that... Mordin's recruitment mission? Simply walking through the slums and the Blue Suns attack. That planet Okeer is on? The Blue Suns attack again as soon as Shepard lands. Purgatory? The Suns try to trap Shepard. Illium? Shepard is simply investigating a crime scene/trying to enter a corporate building. Pragia? The Blood Pack jumps out of the woodwork for no reason. The Citadel? The Blue Suns try to kill you just for entering a warehouse.

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now. Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

I must note that all of them shoot first.

Shepard goes out of his/her way to engage those mercs

I can only think of one situation in which this happens, and that's the attempt to rescue Garrus (and arguably attempting to rescue Oriana). Other than that... Mordin's recruitment mission? Simply walking through the slums and the Blue Suns attack. That planet Okeer is on? The Blue Suns attack again as soon as Shepard lands. Purgatory? The Suns try to trap Shepard. Illium? Shepard is simply investigating a crime scene/trying to enter a corporate building. Pragia? The Blood Pack jumps out of the woodwork for no reason. The Citadel? The Blue Suns try to kill you just for entering a warehouse.

Don't forget the side missions

On Korlus SHepard tells his squad "assume hostiles"

Breaking into the Eclispe base means you know you're going to have to do some killing.

Thane's recruitment you have to sneak onto the Dantius Towers.
 
Breaking into Hock's vault.

Trying to retake the facilty on Zorya.

Shepard clearly goes out of his/her way to kill mercs.

Modifié par jbblue05, 11 février 2011 - 07:00 .

[naledgeborn]

I can only think of one situation in which this happens, and that's the attempt to rescue Garrus (and arguably attempting to rescue Oriana). Other than that... Mordin's recruitment mission? Simply walking through the slums and the Blue Suns attack. That planet Okeer is on? The Blue Suns attack again as soon as Shepard lands. Purgatory? The Suns try to trap Shepard. Illium? Shepard is simply investigating a crime scene/trying to enter a corporate building. Pragia? The Blood Pack jumps out of the woodwork for no reason. The Citadel? The Blue Suns try to kill you just for entering a warehouse.

Damn, Mercenaries must reallly hate Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

Don't forget the side missions

I don't do any that involve an unprovoked attack.

On Korlus SHepard tells his squad "assume hostiles"

Well, yeah. They still shoot first.

Breaking into the Eclispe base means you know you're going to have to do some killing.

I don't know it; all I want is to get a ship name. I would hope to achieve it nonviolently, but it doesn't work out that way.

Thane's recruitment you have to sneak onto the Dantius Towers.

I think it could be done in a stealthier manner, but thankfully it quickly becomes a rescue mission for the salarian workers, so it's being done in defense of others.

Breaking into Hock's vault.

Non-violent intent.

Trying to retake the facilty on Zorya.

Rescue mission.

[SandTrout]

ZoSo159 wrote...

*Spoiler*


I do not think he could help you fight since Anderson shot both his knees point blank with a shotgun.  I still think it would be awsome to meet him though he was my favorite Cerberus operative other than Grayson.  He got the job done and he showed Aria who's boss.

I believe you are incorrect on what his legs got shot by. IIRC, Anderson shot him in the thigh with a handgun with the express purpose of handycaping him without killing him.

In any case, medical technology available to Cerberus would probably have Leng back up and operational within a month.

On the sociopathic issue, I agree that Leng is a sociopath. I also agree with nearly all of his actions throughout the book from a tactical standpoint. His sociopathic tendencies are part of what makes him such an effective operative.

Those who claim he was 'overpowered', you are wrong. Drew K. designed the character as someone who was highly effective because he picked his fights. Yes, he was also a general purpose badass, but his astouding sucess:failure ratio was due to his skills in maximizing his tactical advantages and catching enemies by surprise. This fits perfectly with his special forces background. SF are effective beyond their numbers because they strike enemies where it hurts the most and extract before a retaliation can be mounted.

Modifié par SandTrout, 11 février 2011 - 07:07 .

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't forget the side missions

I don't do any that involve an unprovoked attack.

On Korlus SHepard tells his squad "assume hostiles"

Well, yeah. They still shoot first.

Breaking into the Eclispe base means you know you're going to have to do some killing.

I don't know it; all I want is to get a ship name. I would hope to achieve it nonviolently, but it doesn't work out that way.

Thane's recruitment you have to sneak onto the Dantius Towers.

I think it could be done in a stealthier manner, but thankfully it quickly becomes a rescue mission for the salarian workers, so it's being done in defense of others.

Breaking into Hock's vault.

Non-violent intent.

Trying to retake the facilty on Zorya.

Rescue mission.

[Aedan_Cousland]

SF are effective beyond their numbers because they strike enemies where it hurts the most and extract before a retaliation can be mounted.

Agreed with eveything you said about Kai Leng.

I would also add to this bit though that one of the reasons Spec Ops are effective beyond their numbers is that they often don't directly engage the enemy. More often than not they are the eyes and ears of the conventional ground forces and are providing long range recon rather than directly engaging the enemy.

In that role they are keeping the conventional ground forces informed of enemy troop strengths and movements, so that the conventional ground forces can engage and destroy them. They also might call in air or artillery strikes on the enemy without actually engaging them. In the ME universe I imagine this role would not be much different, except you could add orbital bombardment into the mix. Many times if a Spec Ops unit is involved in direct combat something has gone wrong.

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...
Shepard kills thousands of unnamed mercs is Shepard a sociopath now.  Shepard approaches it like a business, if you don't approach it that way Shepard would be an emotional wreck

Sociopath behavior  is all perspective and determined by the individual.  You say sociopath I say business first..
The kid is 15 years old, the best biotic in the school
You should read pg. 328 Kail Leng tells Nick the 15 year old
"Are you sure you're up to it? It's not going to be easy."
"I can do it," Nick swore

Kai Leng didn't force Nick to do anything, it was Nick's own free will.
Nick only got shot because he saw Kahllee and didn't attack Grayson. Kai Leng can't sit their and have regret when Grayson needs to be killed.

They shoot at you.You shoot back, you are just better at it than they are.

Thane is a professional he's not a sociopath.

[Kusy]

I lol at you people trying to tell eachother what sociopathy and psychopathy is.

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...


They shoot at you.You shoot back, you are just better at it than they are.

Thane is a professional he's not a sociopath.

Double standard I see

Thane is a cool alien  so he's not a sociopath
but Kai Leng is a racist human sociopath who's also an assasin.

Thane is a sociopath he kills people and says he didn't do it it was his employers

Modifié par jbblue05, 11 février 2011 - 08:12 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AwesomeName wrote...

You're missing the point, he completely lacks remorse when he kills Aria's daughter.  If a paragon killed her for the same reasons, they would feel bad about it.  He doesn't.  That is clear cut sociopathic behaviour.  He almost never has a feeling other than disgust for aliens.  Plus he used a kid as nothing more than a weapon - there was zero empathy and zero regret when the child was shot - he cared more about revenge against Anderson and his own survival, without even the slightest thought of that child.  He is full of bile and hatred, and the only reason he doesn't murder every alien he sees is because he's not stupid.  But if he could get away with it - he would.

I don't think you understand what sociopathy is. Or, at least, sociopathy doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

No, you don't have to feel bad and remorseful over every person you kill to not be a sociopath.

No, using a teenager with powerful biotics to stop a major threat that threatens everyone is not sociopathy. And no, he wasn't even using the child against Anderson, but rather to stop the Reaper Avatar.

Nothing has suggested or implied he wants to kill every alien he sees. Nor has his motivation been only about hatred.


Kai's behavior has been uniformly professional, even when his private instincts have been against it. The only sign of any behavior being motivated by his racism might have been the Krogan... but you don't need to be a racist to get in a fight with a Krogan.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

He also murders one of Aria's daughters, by slitting her throat while she's sleeping. She wasn't the target but happened to be the lover of the target slated for assassination, and was in the target's bed when Kai Leng slipped into his apartment.

Ain't that a misrepresentation.

She wasn't sleeping like an angel and evil little Kai crept up to murder her for no reason or instigation. She was knocked out, and the reason she was knocked out was because she had just been in a fight in which she had just killed a member of Kai's team.

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...
Double standard I see

Thane is a cool alien  so he's not a sociopath
but Kai Leng is a racist human sociopath who's also an assasin.

Thane is a sociopath he kills people and says he didn't do it it was his employers

The two are not related.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - Does not sound like Thane does it ?

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Double standard I see

Thane is a cool alien  so he's not a sociopath
but Kai Leng is a racist human sociopath who's also an assasin.

Thane is a sociopath he kills people and says he didn't do it it was his employers

The two are not related.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - Does not sound like Thane does it ?

The definition of sociopath is quite complex. I think your locked into a certain black and white definition os sociopath.

The only remorse Thane shows is towards his son and dead wife.  He doesn't show remorse towards the other people he has killed

[darknoon5]

jbblue05 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Double standard I see

Thane is a cool alien  so he's not a sociopath
but Kai Leng is a racist human sociopath who's also an assasin.

Thane is a sociopath he kills people and says he didn't do it it was his employers

The two are not related.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt - Does not sound like Thane does it ?

The definition of sociopath is quite complex. I think your locked into a certain black and white definition os sociopath.

The only remorse Thane shows is towards his son and dead wife.  He doesn't show remorse towards the other people he has killed

I would like to point out he prays over Nassana, seems to feel bad about how he treated mouse, and seems to dissaprove of beating Kelham to a pulp.

[Kusy]

jbblue05 wrote...
The definition of sociopath is quite complex.

No, it's not.

"A personality disorder characterized by a lack of social responsibility and failure to adapt to ethical and social standards of the community."

It's considered a sickness. If you are fully aware of your actions, know they are bad and messed up, but still you think it's for the greater cause - you are a healthy man with sick beliefs.
Killing a man on a dare because you see nothing wrong in killing a man is sociopathy. Sociopath is not aware that his actions are evil or cruel to someone, he doesn't know that he's doing something wrong.

And still - this is a huge generalisation because sociopathy is an incredibly wide concept with many medicaly documented and named sub thingies.

Kai Leng should be considered as one because he doesn't see anything wrong in sliting someone's throat if they are not human. End of story.

About Thane - hard to tell, I think he is some kind of a wacko. Especialy with his "split personality" theory where there is "Thane assasin tool" and "Thane regular guy".

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 11 février 2011 - 08:31 .

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...

The definition of sociopath is quite complex. I think your locked into a certain black and white definition os sociopath.

The only remorse Thane shows is towards his son and dead wife.  He doesn't show remorse towards the other people he has killed

That was one of the "signs of a sociopath".

Did you actually play Thanes mission ? 

Did you see how he killed his target,how he crossed her arms as she was dying? How he prayed for forgiveness afterwards? 

Thane is definately not a sociopath by any definition of the word.