153 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

The definition of sociopath is quite complex. I think your locked into a certain black and white definition os sociopath.

The only remorse Thane shows is towards his son and dead wife.  He doesn't show remorse towards the other people he has killed

That was one of the "signs of a sociopath".

Did you actually play Thanes mission ? 

Did you see how he killed his target,how he crossed her arms as she was dying? How he prayed for forgiveness afterwards? 

Thane is definately not a sociopath by any definition of the word.

This is after Thane's wife died.
Thane was killing people without remorse prior to meeting his wife.
"she woke me from my battle sleep"

Plus Thane is dying so he's trying to right his wrongs.  If Thane wasn't dying he probably wouldn't be so remorseful.and wouldn't care about seeing his son

Thane is not a sociopath- Paragon Alignment
Kai Leng is a sociopath- Renegade Alignment

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Than your not a Renegade, your a paragon pretending to be a Renegade.
Kai Leng didn't have a lethal weapon and the kill was quick and painless.

Kai Leng wouldn't kill Kelly.she's human. and works for Cerberus

Renegades remove obstacles in the most expedient manner. He just sounds like a sociopath.

How's he a sociopath?.

Kai Leng is a tactician.  Just because you wouldn't do some things he's done doesn't make him wrong or too extreme.

Bull, Liselle's death was in no way needed to complete the mission. In fact once Aria finds out it will hurt Cerberus far more than it would have if they had just taken Grayson. Previously Aria would have regarded any dealings with Failberus as "just business", once she finds out all bets are off.

She is the Pirate Queen of the defacto Capitol of the Terminus systems. She has ties to every criminal organization in the Terminus Systems. She can put up a bounty on all Cerberus operations in the Terminus Systems, a region that Cerberus likes to use for their operations that are too risky to run in Citadel Space. That worked as long as the criminal element is not looking for them. She can really cramp their operations going into the future if she finds out what really happened. Blue Suns, Eclipse, Talons and many more merc groups would love to take down a Failberus facility for the loot and a cash reward with the added value that the reward wouldn't have to be as large since the loot itself will be top of the line gear from a well financed human organization.

As for the need to kill her as a witness, maybe but they would have gotten away just by securing her and escaping. She didn't even know that it was Cerberus who did the deed and there are plenty of Human mercs in the Terminus Systems as a whole and Omega in particular.

So, due to his actions Cerberus now has the Alliance, the Citadel, The Quarians and now every Merc she has ties to hunting them. After the hit they took from the raids in Retribution they are really hurting. TIM is now having to hide and rebuild while being hunted. ****** poor execution, no matter what you Failberus apologists say.

jbblue05 wrote...
Kai Leng doesn't have an antisocial disorder.
So Kai Leng is immoral because its not what a Paragon would do?
Kai Leng killed Aria's daughter because he's an assasin if he left her alive he would be a terrible assasin
Kai Leng never takes pleasure in killing aliens its just business

Except that the mission wasn't an assassination, it was a snatch and grab. Not only that but his entire attitude is that all aliens are beneath him and he does take pleasure in killing them. Heck at one point during my reading I recall thinking that the Waffen SS had nothing on this pig. It read almost like something out of WWII in his behavior, kinda amusing because with his asiatic ethnicity the Waffen SS would have cooked him in his own juices and yet Failberus can't see that they have already jumped off that cliff.

jbblue05 wrote...
Aria's daughter is a witness, Assasins don't leave witnesses behind.

It only took him a couple seconds to find the knife.  His motivation was not leave a witness behind and plus he could've wanted revenge on the Asari for killing his squadmate (possibly a friend)

You seem to forget that Kai Leng's team was busy doing other things before they escape.  The medic was trying to patch up a team member and other members were trying to cover up evidence and recover the red sand..

Aria actually works with this anti-alien organization.

She was a witness to some unknown entity snatching Grayson. At that point there was no evidence that it was Cerberus. By killing her he ensured that the Cerberus connection was discovered, only TIMs lies deflected Aria at the time. Those same lies were what lead to her working with them. Once she finds out that it was Cerberus that did the deed, and she will because Kalee knows that Grayson was kidnapped and experimented on. Not only that but the Frakking data from the Cerberus base that TIM let her keep will show that TIM's men were responsible and what they did to Grayson. TIM did "get away with it" but only for a very short time.

PS) Aria only worked with Cerberus because she thought it was Grayson who was responsible for killing Liselle.

jbblue05 wrote...
Kai Leng doesn't like aliens it still does't make him an extremist.
Balak and the Batarian Hegemony are extremists.
Kai Leng doesn't go out of his way to kill aliens for the lulz, he only kills aliens if it affects his mission, if Grayson's lover was human he would still kill her.

He was in jail for killing an alien for the lulz when TIM recruited him... sorry not buying it.

jbblue05 wrote...
Sociopath behavior is all perspective and determined by the individual. You say sociopath I say business first..
The kid is 15 years old, the best biotic in the school
You should read pg. 328 Kail Leng tells Nick the 15 year old
"Are you sure you're up to it? It's not going to be easy."
"I can do it," Nick swore

Kai Leng didn't force Nick to do anything, it was Nick's own free will.
Nick only got shot because he saw Kahllee and didn't attack Grayson. Kai Leng can't sit their and have regret when Grayson needs to be killed.

Manipulation of someone into doing what you want is sociopathic when you are doing so with no regard for the consequences to that individual. Paragon Shepard kills countless mercs because they attack him or are involved in something he is there to stop. He's not necessarily killing for the lulz (of course we are playing a video game so the player is) but to complete the mission. For Paragon Shep or Renegade Shep to be comparable to what Kai Leng did in Liselle's case it would be like going back to the stockroom and shooting the kid you con your way past in Thane's loyalty mission after the mission was complete.

[Kusy]

Thane is a wacko. He doesn't belive that he's responsible for any hit he did. I'd call that a serious mental problem. Don't assume that someone is not a psyco because he show remose for few people who he killed and wants to have good relations with his son.

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...
This is after Thane's wife died.
Thane was killing people without remorse prior to meeting his wife.
"she woke me from my battle sleep"

Plus Thane is dying so he's trying to right his wrongs.  If Thane wasn't dying he probably wouldn't be so remorseful.and wouldn't care about seeing his son

Thane is not a sociopath- Paragon Alignment
Kai Leng is a sociopath- Renegade Alignment

None of that makes any difference whatsoever.

Being a renegade does not automatically make you a sociopath.

Mr.Kusy wrote...

Thane is a wacko. He doesn't belive that he's responsible for any hit he did. I'd call that a serious mental problem. Don't assume that someone is not a psyco because he show remose for few people who he killed and wants to have good relations with his son.

Thane was conditioned to kill from the age of 6. He sees himself as a tool , and the responsibility lies with the person who aims the gun, not the gun. That's Thanes view.
But he still shows remorse and regret.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 février 2011 - 08:40 .

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
This is after Thane's wife died.
Thane was killing people without remorse prior to meeting his wife.
"she woke me from my battle sleep"

Plus Thane is dying so he's trying to right his wrongs.  If Thane wasn't dying he probably wouldn't be so remorseful.and wouldn't care about seeing his son

Thane is not a sociopath- Paragon Alignment
Kai Leng is a sociopath- Renegade Alignment

None of that makes any difference whatsoever.

Being a renegade does not automatically make you a sociopath.

I'm just saying its mainly Paragons claiming he's a sociopath

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...

I'm just saying its mainly Paragons claiming he's a sociopath

He is one by the definition of what makes someone a sociopath, that's all that counts. Even if you were a sociopath too and agreed with everything he did, he would still be one.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 11 février 2011 - 08:44 .

[darknoon5]

jbblue05 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
This is after Thane's wife died.
Thane was killing people without remorse prior to meeting his wife.
"she woke me from my battle sleep"

Plus Thane is dying so he's trying to right his wrongs.  If Thane wasn't dying he probably wouldn't be so remorseful.and wouldn't care about seeing his son

Thane is not a sociopath- Paragon Alignment
Kai Leng is a sociopath- Renegade Alignment

None of that makes any difference whatsoever.

Being a renegade does not automatically make you a sociopath.

I'm just saying its mainly Paragons claiming he's a sociopath

I've played as paragon and renegades (prefer Paragade) and think Kai Leng is a sociopath.

Back to the original post. I like his character, and think it would be interesting to have him as a squadmate, as a squadmate that's a renegade (like Zaeed and in Kotor Canderous/Mandalore) forced on you would be interesting, though like with Zaeed there should be an option to kill him. People should also only be able to recruit him if they gave TIM the base.

Regardless of whether you like Kai Leng or not, he would be an invaluable squadmate. He killed a krogan in a bar fight without any biotic abilities, for crying out loud.

But I'm waaay to hopeful. I doubt we'll even get a Kai Leng cameo, let alone Kai Leng as a sqaudmate.

Modifié par darknoon5, 11 février 2011 - 08:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Mr.Kusy wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
The definition of sociopath is quite complex.

No, it's not.

"A personality disorder characterized by a lack of social responsibility and failure to adapt to ethical and social standards of the community."

Besides dictionary.com not being the comprehnsive medical definition of what composes sociopathy, that definition is so broad as to be meaningless. Whose community? Whose standards? Cerberus is a community. Cerberus has ethical and social standards. If Kai abides by them, is he no longer a sociopath, if he was by another community's standard?

Moreover, it also moves into a justification debate: when is killing morally justified? What is the minimum or appropriate amount of social responsibility? Did Kai follow them or not? After all, his act took place during a covert operation on Omega, a place where life is measured in credits, not innate value.

Kai Leng should be considered as one because he doesn't see anything wrong in sliting someone's throat if they are not human. End of story.

Sure. Now how about we talk about the actual story of Retribution, in which Kai Leng is not depicted as seeing nothing wrong with killing Aria's daughter simply because she is not human? In which, in fact, her not being human had nothing to do with the logic behind killing her?

Since, you know, Retribution is the story that actually matters.

[jma2286]

The books have been referenced in both games so BioWare isn't just shooting fluff with them. The first game references Revelation with Anderson's story about Saren and ME2 references Ascension through Cerberus' issues with the Quarians. Jacob Taylor is the subject of the game involving the Batarians. Redemption was the prelude to the LotSB DLC mission.



It would make sense that Kai Leng is not only a party member in ME3 but also that Anderson suffers political fallout within the Alliance for taking joint-Turian action against Cerberus, who is funded by their shareholders and was given the plans for the SR-1 to make the SR-2 and Shepard's body to revive him/her.



I would think it would be cool to have the decisions you've made in ME2 and ME affect party member composition in ME3 and the way I would do it would be having a Council Spectre or Kai Leng join the party, depending on your ME2 Collector base decision. Keeping the Base is pretty much saluting Cerberus and going all in, while destroying it favors sticking to what we've got, the military of the Council and Alliance.

[Quole]

No. His character was completely retarded.

[Bailyn242]

I'm just so sick of the Cerberus plot armor. Its become so bad as to break my suspension of disbelief. Leng's monkey escape, TIMs escape in a lifepod, complete non-consequences for their actions on Omega... riigghhtt! so believable.



Seriously, where were the overwatch frigates on the Turian attack?



"Sir, we have 2 escape pods moving away from the station."

"Pick 'em up."



Done.



Alternatively, Shuttle escaping the Grissom Station:



"Quick radio the planet and get the Alliance tracking it." Well, he's leading us somewhere. Look at that Ship/Station."



Before you say comms were knocked out, Radios still worked.



That bridging DLC needs to put a leash on TIM and break up Cerberus as an independent organization. TIM is useful but can no longer be trusted to do the job. He has let too much into the hands of the enemy. A prime example of Failberus was Grayson's cell. At least Saren had a kill switch engineered into the Rachni Queen's holding cell. Tim didn't have that or he would have triggered it. Grayson, once the Reaper tech was in his system, was a far greater threat than the Rachni were.



So please BW get a leash on that dog. You don't need to kill him but he needs a leash.

[Quole]

Bailyn242 wrote...

I'm just so sick of the Cerberus plot armor. Its become so bad as to break my suspension of disbelief. Leng's monkey escape, TIMs escape in a lifepod, complete non-consequences for their actions on Omega... riigghhtt! so believable.

Seriously, where were the overwatch frigates on the Turian attack?

"Sir, we have 2 escape pods moving away from the station."
"Pick 'em up."

Done.

Alternatively, Shuttle escaping the Grissom Station:

"Quick radio the planet and get the Alliance tracking it." Well, he's leading us somewhere. Look at that Ship/Station."

Before you say comms were knocked out, Radios still worked.

That bridging DLC needs to put a leash on TIM and break up Cerberus as an independent organization. TIM is useful but can no longer be trusted to do the job. He has let too much into the hands of the enemy. A prime example of Failberus was Grayson's cell. At least Saren had a kill switch engineered into the Rachni Queen's holding cell. Tim didn't have that or he would have triggered it. Grayson, once the Reaper tech was in his system, was a far greater threat than the Rachni were.

So please BW get a leash on that dog. You don't need to kill him but he needs a leash.

indeed. I actually facepalmed when reading the part where Leng killed several armed turians whithout a gun.

[Kingthlayer]

Kai Leng would be the perfect fit into my pro Human play through. Hell he would fit in decently well in my paragon play through since he'd be an actual male LI for my female Shepard.



Both teams are going to need an assassin anyways since Thane will be dead.

[Bailyn242]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Both teams are going to need an assassin anyways since Thane will be dead.

Nah, I have Miranda and Mordin, Lazarus II here we come. 

[Sajuro]

Bailyn242 wrote...

I'm just so sick of the Cerberus plot armor. Its become so bad as to break my suspension of disbelief. Leng's monkey escape, TIMs escape in a lifepod, complete non-consequences for their actions on Omega... riigghhtt! so believable.

Seriously, where were the overwatch frigates on the Turian attack?

"Sir, we have 2 escape pods moving away from the station."
"Pick 'em up."

Done.

Alternatively, Shuttle escaping the Grissom Station:

"Quick radio the planet and get the Alliance tracking it." Well, he's leading us somewhere. Look at that Ship/Station."

-snip-

So please BW get a leash on that dog. You don't need to kill him but he needs a leash.

What, and deprive my Shepard (Sole Survivor) a chance to personally thank TIM for Akuze?
As for simply putting a leash on Cerberus, may I quote a famous Renegade?
"Men get arrested, Dogs get put down"

[Bailyn242]

Sajuro wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

I'm just so sick of the Cerberus plot armor. Its become so bad as to break my suspension of disbelief. Leng's monkey escape, TIMs escape in a lifepod, complete non-consequences for their actions on Omega... riigghhtt! so believable.

Seriously, where were the overwatch frigates on the Turian attack?

"Sir, we have 2 escape pods moving away from the station."
"Pick 'em up."

Done.

Alternatively, Shuttle escaping the Grissom Station:

"Quick radio the planet and get the Alliance tracking it." Well, he's leading us somewhere. Look at that Ship/Station."

-snip-

So please BW get a leash on that dog. You don't need to kill him but he needs a leash.

What, and deprive my Shepard (Sole Survivor) a chance to personally thank TIM for Akuze?
As for simply putting a leash on Cerberus, may I quote a famous Renegade?
"Men get arrested, Dogs get put down"

True, hence the reason I give Leng to Aria and TIM? I lock him in a cell with all his comms monitored by Liara. He's got a pretty good mind at deconstructing a threat but he makes too many mistakes. He needs oversight, not execution, at least not until the Reapers are defeated. At that point I'd be happy to put him down. Waste not want not and all that.

[Shepard needs a Vacation]

i hope hes in there

[James2912]

I think there should be an *option* to recruit him if you are a renegade. I don't think he should be forced on paragon players. I play as both and I would like a character like that for a renegade playthrough but not as a paragon.

Thane is an assassin who has killed many many people. The only difference between him and kai is that kai is a human and Thane is an alien so that automatically makes it alright for him to be a mass murderer in a lot of peoples twisted morals. My paragon shep hates Thane and would hate kai. My renegade just uses thane as a tool and would do the same as kai.

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

I'm just saying its mainly Paragons claiming he's a sociopath

He is one by the definition of what makes someone a sociopath, that's all that counts. Even if you were a sociopath too and agreed with everything he did, he would still be one.

Everybody's a sociopath to someone.
So the Sociopath term is redundant because the only people that aren't sociopaths are perfect or vegetables

[jbblue05]

James2912 wrote...

I think there should be an *option* to recruit him if you are a renegade. I don't think he should be forced on paragon players. I play as both and I would like a character like that for a renegade playthrough but not as a paragon.
Thane is an assassin who has killed many many people. The only difference between him and kai is that kai is a human and Thane is an alien so that automatically makes it alright for him to be a mass murderer in a lot of peoples twisted morals. My paragon shep hates Thane and would hate kai. My renegade just uses thane as a tool and would do the same as kai.

Exactly Everybody WIns

ecept Aria

[vanslyke85]

ZoSo159 wrote...

*Spoiler*


I do not think he could help you fight since Anderson shot both his knees point blank with a shotgun.  I still think it would be awsome to meet him though he was my favorite Cerberus operative other than Grayson.  He got the job done and he showed Aria who's boss.

*Spoiler*

Shepard died and the Illusive man made him better than before...2 blownout knees is nothing

Modifié par vanslyke85, 12 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[James2912]

jbblue05 wrote...

James2912 wrote...

I think there should be an *option* to recruit him if you are a renegade. I don't think he should be forced on paragon players. I play as both and I would like a character like that for a renegade playthrough but not as a paragon.
Thane is an assassin who has killed many many people. The only difference between him and kai is that kai is a human and Thane is an alien so that automatically makes it alright for him to be a mass murderer in a lot of peoples twisted morals. My paragon shep hates Thane and would hate kai. My renegade just uses thane as a tool and would do the same as kai.

Exactly Everybody WIns

ecept Aria

Yes and Aria pisses both my paragon and renegade sheps off anyways.
Paragon- she runs a ruthless criminal empire
Renegade- the dont **** with aria line

A lot of paragons players love aria anyways cuz she is alien and aliens can do no wrong to some people

Modifié par James2912, 12 février 2011 - 12:38 .

[AkiKishi]

jbblue05 wrote...

Everybody's a sociopath to someone.
So the Sociopath term is redundant because the only people that aren't sociopaths are perfect or vegetables

That's not how it works. There is a clinical list of qualities that make someone a sociopath. Thane does not fit the list. Kai Leng does from what people have posted here.

It's got nothing to do with being perfect either. Soldiers kill, but the majority of them are not sociopaths. Armys have to tests to screen people like that from even getting in.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 12 février 2011 - 12:42 .

[vanslyke85]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Kai Leng would be the perfect fit into my pro Human play through. Hell he would fit in decently well in my paragon play through since he'd be an actual male LI for my female Shepard.

Both teams are going to need an assassin anyways since Thane will be dead.

Truuuu Dat!!

[ReiSilver]

Oh boy, I'm the kind of person who will sometimes like villains more then heroes for being interesting but Kai Leng made me want to reach through the pages and strangle him. Honestly the number of people who are like 'oh he's not a bad guy, tee hee' are seriously worrying, I mean did you read the book? It's not like we don't get a look in on his thought processes and they're horrible, full of hate and double standards everywhere. Like when he ascribes the qualities of aliens on Omega as the way it would be if aliens ran everything, like judging all Americans based on one suburb, or all Japanese people based on your perceptions of Yakuza.

This isn't a paragon vs renegade thing to me. I don't ascribe those qualities to anyone other then Shepard since our crew mates tend to be more complicated mixes of qualities (I was surprised when I first heard Garrus was considered Renegade because he was so polite, that's just not in most renegade dialogues in ME1).



Do I want him in the game? I think he would make a good villain ala Saran and Vasir. I'd love a chance to remove that guy from the gene pool... but my Sole Survivor would still rather put a bullet in TiM's head.