153 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Everybody's a sociopath to someone.
So the Sociopath term is redundant because the only people that aren't sociopaths are perfect or vegetables

That's not how it works. There is a clinical list of qualities that make someone a sociopath. Thane does not fit the list. Kai Leng does from what people have posted here.

It's got nothing to do with being perfect either. Soldiers kill, but the majority of them are not sociopaths. Armys have to tests to screen people like that from even getting in.

Lets end this discussion, because wee are going to go in circles 

[jbblue05]

ReiSilver wrote...

Oh boy, I'm the kind of person who will sometimes like villains more then heroes for being interesting but Kai Leng made me want to reach through the pages and strangle him. Honestly the number of people who are like 'oh he's not a bad guy, tee hee' are seriously worrying, I mean did you read the book? It's not like we don't get a look in on his thought processes and they're horrible, full of hate and double standards everywhere. Like when he ascribes the qualities of aliens on Omega as the way it would be if aliens ran everything, like judging all Americans based on one suburb, or all Japanese people based on your perceptions of Yakuza.
This isn't a paragon vs renegade thing to me. I don't ascribe those qualities to anyone other then Shepard since our crew mates tend to be more complicated mixes of qualities (I was surprised when I first heard Garrus was considered Renegade because he was so polite, that's just not in most renegade dialogues in ME1).

Do I want him in the game? I think he would make a good villain ala Saran and Vasir. I'd love a chance to remove that guy from the gene pool... but my Sole Survivor would still rather put a bullet in TiM's head.

Did you want to strangle Liselle and Grayson when they ambushed those helpless mercs over credits.
Really Kai Leng was a character you either hate or love.  DK did a great job Grayson, Aria and Liselle were suppose to have redeeming features.
 While Kai Leng's were intentionally left out to make him fit the Renegade alignment cold and caculating.which makes it harder for the average reader to connect with his character.

Its not just a renegade vs. paragon argument its also alien vs. human

[Hoest]

It would be interesting if you get Kai Leng if you keep the base and Kahlee Sanders if you destroy it. Doubt it will happen at all though. I would like to see them in ME3, a minor role at least but I'd prefer something bigger.

[jbblue05]

Hoest wrote...

It would be interesting if you get Kai Leng if you keep the base and Kahlee Sanders if you destroy it. Doubt it will happen at all though. I would like to see them in ME3, a minor role at least but I'd prefer something bigger.

Anderson would make more sense than Kahlee.  Kahlee doesn't have full combat training like Anderson.

Plus Anderson quits his job and is a pariah within the Alliance

[Hoest]

True. I was thinking that Kahlee could fill a job Similar to that of Mordin's. She is one of humanity's brightest scientists after all. But combat-wise Anderson would be better.

[jbblue05]

Hoest wrote...

True. I was thinking that Kahlee could fill a job Similar to that of Mordin's. She is one of humanity's brightest scientists after all. But combat-wise Anderson would be better.

You might get both since Kahlee is sticking with Anderson for protection.

[The Unfallen]

I support Kai Leng for anti-shepard/squad member/LI in ME 3!

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Hoest wrote...

It would be interesting if you get Kai Leng if you keep the base and Kahlee Sanders if you destroy it. Doubt it will happen at all though. I would like to see them in ME3, a minor role at least but I'd prefer something bigger.

Anderson would make more sense than Kahlee.  Kahlee doesn't have full combat training like Anderson.

Plus Anderson quits his job and is a pariah within the Alliance

We never found out exactly what happened with Anderson after he quit. Not only that but he's not the Councillor in the book, he's a political advisor (read underling) in the book. They simply can't do this since from what I can see the bulk of players made him the Councillor after ME1. Even most of the Renegade playthroughs he still gets picked, at least most of the other players I know renegade or paragon made him the Councillor. 

It's really quite funny to me that the books all have the Udina Rep setup considering I suspect that it was the opposite in real player decisions for the most part.

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Hoest wrote...

It would be interesting if you get Kai Leng if you keep the base and Kahlee Sanders if you destroy it. Doubt it will happen at all though. I would like to see them in ME3, a minor role at least but I'd prefer something bigger.

Anderson would make more sense than Kahlee.  Kahlee doesn't have full combat training like Anderson.

Plus Anderson quits his job and is a pariah within the Alliance

We never found out exactly what happened with Anderson after he quit. Not only that but he's not the Councillor in the book, he's a political advisor (read underling) in the book. They simply can't do this since from what I can see the bulk of players made him the Councillor after ME1. Even most of the Renegade playthroughs he still gets picked, at least most of the other players I know renegade or paragon made him the Councillor. 

It's really quite funny to me that the books all have the Udina Rep setup considering I suspect that it was the opposite in real player decisions for the most part.

Udina's the default choice because its the smart and wiser choice.
Anderson and Kahlee take Grayson's body to study so the might play a big role in ME3
I think ME3 is going to make Udina the Councilor, because ANderson and Udina canm't be swapped in Retribution.  Plus Anderson hates his job.so it makes sense he quits..

[Blansten]

As long as he is optional for either Paragon or Renegade he is not my cup of tea and I would not want him on
any of my squads but those who do want him should be able to get him.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Hoest wrote...

It would be interesting if you get Kai Leng if you keep the base and Kahlee Sanders if you destroy it. Doubt it will happen at all though. I would like to see them in ME3, a minor role at least but I'd prefer something bigger.

Anderson would make more sense than Kahlee.  Kahlee doesn't have full combat training like Anderson.

Plus Anderson quits his job and is a pariah within the Alliance

We never found out exactly what happened with Anderson after he quit. Not only that but he's not the Councillor in the book, he's a political advisor (read underling) in the book. They simply can't do this since from what I can see the bulk of players made him the Councillor after ME1. Even most of the Renegade playthroughs he still gets picked, at least most of the other players I know renegade or paragon made him the Councillor. 

It's really quite funny to me that the books all have the Udina Rep setup considering I suspect that it was the opposite in real player decisions for the most part.

Udina's the default choice because its the smart and wiser choice.
Anderson and Kahlee take Grayson's body to study so the might play a big role in ME3
I think ME3 is going to make Udina the Councilor, because ANderson and Udina canm't be swapped in Retribution.  Plus Anderson hates his job.so it makes sense he quits..

You are aware that history disproves the BS politician would make a better councillor theory right? Anderson = Ike. I like Ike!

Please Bioware, if you must force Udina on your players allow us to shoot him please. Bring back Ambassador Goyle if you must force a politician on us.

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

You are aware that history disproves the BS politician would make a better councillor theory right? Anderson = Ike. I like Ike!

Please Bioware, if you must force Udina on your players allow us to shoot him please. Bring back Ambassador Goyle if you must force a politician on us.

I need examples give me examples..

[ReiSilver]

jbblue05 wrote...

ReiSilver wrote...

Oh boy, I'm the kind of person who will sometimes like villains more then heroes for being interesting but Kai Leng made me want to reach through the pages and strangle him. Honestly the number of people who are like 'oh he's not a bad guy, tee hee' are seriously worrying, I mean did you read the book? It's not like we don't get a look in on his thought processes and they're horrible, full of hate and double standards everywhere. Like when he ascribes the qualities of aliens on Omega as the way it would be if aliens ran everything, like judging all Americans based on one suburb, or all Japanese people based on your perceptions of Yakuza.
This isn't a paragon vs renegade thing to me. I don't ascribe those qualities to anyone other then Shepard since our crew mates tend to be more complicated mixes of qualities (I was surprised when I first heard Garrus was considered Renegade because he was so polite, that's just not in most renegade dialogues in ME1).

Do I want him in the game? I think he would make a good villain ala Saren and Vasir. I'd love a chance to remove that guy from the gene pool... but my Sole Survivor would still rather put a bullet in TiM's head.

Did you want to strangle Liselle and Grayson when they ambushed those helpless mercs over credits.
Really Kai Leng was a character you either hate or love.  DK did a great job Grayson, Aria and Liselle were suppose to have redeeming features.
 While Kai Leng's were intentionally left out to make him fit the Renegade alignment cold and caculating.which makes it harder for the average reader to connect with his character.

Its not just a renegade vs. paragon argument its also alien vs. human

Since when is it alien vs. human?. I found Saren quite hateful and hard to like in the first novel as well, he was written as quite the monster. With the game characters they're easier for me to understand alternate interpretations of character because we don't know what they're thinking as they do things, we can only guess and hypothesise  The novels tell us exactly what the characters are thinking.

I said before it's not his actions that made me want to end Kai Leng, on paper a cold tactical assassin type is one I can really like. It's his hatefulness towards so much of the universe, his opinions on other people and that he never questioned those views, ever, that made him so unlikable for me. This doesn't make him a bad character, but it did make me want to throw my kindle across the room a few times rather then read his opinions for another chapter

The only other time I was so joyous at the thought of punching a villain in the face was Dio Brando in the first arc of JJBA

[jbblue05]

ReiSilver wrote...

Since when is it alien vs. human?. I found Saren quite hateful and hard to like in the first novel as well, he was written as quite the monster. With the game characters they're easier for me to understand alternate interpretations of character because we don't know what they're thinking as they do things, we can only guess and hypothesise  The novels tell us exactly what the characters are thinking.

I said before it's not his actions that made me want to end Kai Leng, on paper a cold tactical assassin type is one I can really like. It's his hatefulness towards so much of the universe, his opinions on other people and that he never questioned those views, ever, that made him so unlikable for me. This doesn't make him a bad character, but it did make me want to throw my kindle across the room a few times rather then read his opinions for another chapter

The only other time I was so joyous at the thought of punching a villain in the face was Dio Brando in the first arc of JJBA

The Thane comment earlier in the thread made it alien vs. human.
 I don't think his racism is that big of deal.
He killed a Krogan in  a bar fight. I don't know about you but I think that's a kill or be killed situation.
I'm sure lots of humans hate Turians and Batarians for obvious reason.
I'm sure other people find the asari a bit 'whorish'.  They come off as promiscuos and will shag anything.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

You are aware that history disproves the BS politician would make a better councillor theory right? Anderson = Ike. I like Ike!

Please Bioware, if you must force Udina on your players allow us to shoot him please. Bring back Ambassador Goyle if you must force a politician on us.

I need examples give me examples..

Off the top of my head?


Ike
Washington
Kennedy
Grant (although he wasn't a great President)
Teddy Roosevelt
All former serving officers.

Churchill
Cromwell (you know, the whole Lord Protector of England thing?)

I'm certain that there are more former serving officers who did well after that service in public life. Modern society has been influenced by the Vietnam War's propaganda war against all things military but history is full of Military Commanders who were also Great Statesmen. 

Perhaps the best Parallel that comes to my mind when thinking about Udina vs Anderson is Neville Chamberlain vs Winston S. Churchill III. Chamberlain buried his head in the sand about the threat Hitler posed while Churchill was warning against the threat for years. Once the gloves came off Chamberlain quit and Churchill lead Britain through the Battle of Britain by snatching 15 minute naps between meetings. 

Remind me again who won the Battle of Britain again? Leadership is more than having connections. It means inspiring the people to not give up. Anderson will be the perfect person to do this while Shepard leads the Fleets against the Reapers.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, RAF Uxbridge, 16 August, 1940.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 12 février 2011 - 04:22 .

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

You are aware that history disproves the BS politician would make a better councillor theory right? Anderson = Ike. I like Ike!

Please Bioware, if you must force Udina on your players allow us to shoot him please. Bring back Ambassador Goyle if you must force a politician on us.

I need examples give me examples..

Off the top of my head?


Ike
Washington
Kennedy
Grant (although he wasn't a great President)
Teddy Roosevelt
All former serving officers.

Churchill
Cromwell (you know, the whole Lord Protector of England thing?)

I'm certain that there are more former serving officers who did well after that service in public life. Modern society has been influenced by the Vietnam War's propaganda war against all things military but history is full of Military Commanders who were also Great Statesmen. 

Perhaps the best Parallel that comes to my mind when thinking about Udina vs Anderson is Neville Chamberlain vs Winston S. Churchill III. Chamberlain buried his head in the sand about the threat Hitler posed while Churchill was warning against the threat for years. Once the gloves came off Chamberlain quit and Churchill lead Britain through the Battle of Britain by snatching 15 minute naps between meetings. 

Remind me again who won the Battle of Britain again? Leadership is more than having connections. It means inspiring the people to not give up. Anderson will be the perfect person to do this while Shepard leads the Fleets against the Reapers.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, RAF Uxbridge, 16 August, 1940.

I wanted examples of BS politicians failling. when their is a naive option that has no political experience and doesn't want to ascend to power

Its obvious you don't pick Udina becuase he's not nice as Anderson was to you in ME
Picking Anderson was an emotional choice not a logical choice.1.

[Kim Shepard]

I hope Kai Leng is a squadmate in ME3. If he's a romance option, even better. He's one of my favorite characters.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

You are aware that history disproves the BS politician would make a better councillor theory right? Anderson = Ike. I like Ike!

Please Bioware, if you must force Udina on your players allow us to shoot him please. Bring back Ambassador Goyle if you must force a politician on us.

I need examples give me examples..

Off the top of my head?


Ike
Washington
Kennedy
Grant (although he wasn't a great President)
Teddy Roosevelt
All former serving officers.

Churchill
Cromwell (you know, the whole Lord Protector of England thing?)

I'm certain that there are more former serving officers who did well after that service in public life. Modern society has been influenced by the Vietnam War's propaganda war against all things military but history is full of Military Commanders who were also Great Statesmen. 

Perhaps the best Parallel that comes to my mind when thinking about Udina vs Anderson is Neville Chamberlain vs Winston S. Churchill III. Chamberlain buried his head in the sand about the threat Hitler posed while Churchill was warning against the threat for years. Once the gloves came off Chamberlain quit and Churchill lead Britain through the Battle of Britain by snatching 15 minute naps between meetings. 

Remind me again who won the Battle of Britain again? Leadership is more than having connections. It means inspiring the people to not give up. Anderson will be the perfect person to do this while Shepard leads the Fleets against the Reapers.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, RAF Uxbridge, 16 August, 1940.

I wanted examples of BS politicians failling. when their is a naive option that has no political experience and doesn't want to ascend to power

Its obvious you don't pick Udina becuase he's not nice as Anderson was to you in ME
Picking Anderson was an emotional choice not a logical choice.1.

Udina is Chamberlain, Chamberlain is a Politician who failed, exactly what you were looking for.

Nice to me had squat to do with it. His decision to ground the Normandy when under threat was the deciding factor, even on my Renegade playthroughs where I would have picked him but he came off as weak willed and a child of expedience.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 12 février 2011 - 04:32 .

[jbblue05]

It wasn't Udina's decision it was the Council and the Alliance's orders. Udina is just the bearer of bad news.



I wasn't aware that Udina already failed, if anyone is failing its Anderson

[Bailyn242]

BTW, nice snide remark about the "He wasn't nice to me"... get a grip. In the story you are facing a War for your very existence, did Udina strike anyone as someone who could inspire the average person to not give up? Did he strike you as someone willing to go to bat for the Troops?



Riigghhtt.



Lie to yourself if you want but don't expect me to buy it.

[Sajuro]

jbblue05 wrote...

Hoest wrote...

True. I was thinking that Kahlee could fill a job Similar to that of Mordin's. She is one of humanity's brightest scientists after all. But combat-wise Anderson would be better.

You might get both since Kahlee is sticking with Anderson for protection.

But then again, Shep would probably be much better protection, though I wouldn't object to having Anderson as an XO

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

It wasn't Udina's decision it was the Council and the Alliance's orders. Udina is just the bearer of bad news.

I wasn't aware that Udina already failed, if anyone is failing its Anderson

I detect the pungent aroma of excuses. How does Anderson fail? Udina backslide on the menace, Anderson didn't. He didn't stop even when no one would listen. If Udina had backed him we wouldn't have the burning bag of crap on our doorstep when ME2 starts.

Before you trot out the but the Alliance was behind his action line let me remind you that BOTH human representative telling everyone that the threat was real would have cause a "political ****storm" as Udina puts it. The Alliance wouldn't have been able to backslide had he backed Anderson.

[James2912]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

It wasn't Udina's decision it was the Council and the Alliance's orders. Udina is just the bearer of bad news.

I wasn't aware that Udina already failed, if anyone is failing its Anderson

I detect the pungent aroma of excuses. How does Anderson fail? Udina backslide on the menace, Anderson didn't. He didn't stop even when no one would listen. If Udina had backed him we wouldn't have the burning bag of crap on our doorstep when ME2 starts.

Before you trot out the but the Alliance was behind his action line let me remind you that BOTH human representative telling everyone that the threat was real would have cause a "political ****storm" as Udina puts it. The Alliance wouldn't have been able to backslide had he backed Anderson.

But what does Anderson accomplish when he is in power? NOTHING! Ron Paul for Councillor !

[Bailyn242]

James2912 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

It wasn't Udina's decision it was the Council and the Alliance's orders. Udina is just the bearer of bad news.

I wasn't aware that Udina already failed, if anyone is failing its Anderson

I detect the pungent aroma of excuses. How does Anderson fail? Udina backslide on the menace, Anderson didn't. He didn't stop even when no one would listen. If Udina had backed him we wouldn't have the burning bag of crap on our doorstep when ME2 starts.

Before you trot out the but the Alliance was behind his action line let me remind you that BOTH human representative telling everyone that the threat was real would have cause a "political ****storm" as Udina puts it. The Alliance wouldn't have been able to backslide had he backed Anderson.

But what does Anderson accomplish when he is in power? NOTHING! Ron Paul for Councillor !

Pretty hard to get anything done when your aid is busy stabbing you in the back though isn't it? Once Shepard returns Anderson gets him the freedom to act against the Collectors and Hackett keeps the inquisition of Shep's ass.At least neither one of them gave up, unlike just about everyone else. Also, once the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller Anderson will be very valuable in a position to keep that end of things together.

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

BTW, nice snide remark about the "He wasn't nice to me"... get a grip. In the story you are facing a War for your very existence, did Udina strike anyone as someone who could inspire the average person to not give up? Did he strike you as someone willing to go to bat for the Troops?

Riigghhtt.

Lie to yourself if you want but don't expect me to buy it.

You said it yourself you didn't pick Udina because he was the bearer of bad news.

Yes we are in war we need competent people in high-ranking positions not naive people with no experience.

Anderson can best serve the galaxy as an admiral on the Alliance and a military advisor to Udina