93 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Mystranna Kelteel: Actually, the choice is still there. Just because your preferred choice doesn't happen to be paragon doesn't mean it's broken. And yes, you very well knew beforehand the turmoil such data would cause from paying attention to the dialogue, especially from talking with the admirals. Just because it's a "side effect" doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered; would you take a certain medicine if it caused anal leakage?

Seriously, are we just going to repeat ourselves, here?

This probably will end up going in circles, yes.  It has before.  And still, you are assuming the outcome of revealing the data.  There are indicators that the fleet is not united, yes, and obvious ones at that.  There is really nothing to suggest that revealing the truth of what Rael was doing is going to make the flotilla explode.

MaaZeus wrote...
He already paid the ultimate price for his crimes. There is nothing good to gain anymore, bringing dead to justice is quite pointless. Only the bad side effects remain.

If it brings closure to the families of the dead then it is good.  Just because Rael is dead does not mean what he did should be ignored.  It affected far more people than just him.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 11 février 2011 - 04:02 .

[InvaderErl]

Actually wouldn't that seriously dishonor everyone involved, not just Rael? They would be implicated as well, judging from Tali's reaction I doubt you would be bringing anyone any sort of peace.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 04:04 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

MaaZeus wrote...
And again I say it only makes the issue explode in their faces. This might, with high possibility, cause them to make rash actions. Instead letting them to handle it slowly and smartly, there might be civil war in worst case scenario. Giving the evidence helps NOTHING.

You can't just assume that giving the evidence helps nothing.  By illuminating what happened it be prevented from happening again.  By having part of the flotilla break off it could jump start the admiralty into actually coming up with a solution and making them stronger than they were before.  Or the other quarians could hae a panic attack and destroy themselves; either way it is not Shepard's fault for revealing what Rael did.

If you want to act like nothing's wrong and let them continue these experiments and slimy political schemes then go ahead.  My advice is to reveal the truth.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

InvaderErl wrote...

Actually wouldn't that seriously dishonor everyone involved, not just Rael? They would be implicated as well, judging from Tali's reaction I doubt you would be bringing anyone any sort of peace.

They're all responsible for their crimes.

[MaaZeus]

@Mystranna Kelteel

Bringing closure to the families was not the original point of the trial, not in the way you are suggesting if I understand you correctly. The trial was there because they thought Tali is responsible for the Geth outbreak on Alarei, and you are there to find evidence that she is innocent. Rael's heinous crimes is something extra that you find out on Alarei. Most likely everyone in-the-know already knew that there was something Geth related study going on (just nothing detailed), thats why they could blame Tali in the first place. No one in the trial or amongst civilians brought up that there was something criminal going in Alarei, only claims that Tali screwed up big time and sent Geth parts that activated ON THEIR OWN and they wanted to condemn her for it.

So, you throw this shocking evidence in their faces out of nowhere.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 11 février 2011 - 04:15 .

[MaaZeus]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...
And again I say it only makes the issue explode in their faces. This might, with high possibility, cause them to make rash actions. Instead letting them to handle it slowly and smartly, there might be civil war in worst case scenario. Giving the evidence helps NOTHING.

You can't just assume that giving the evidence helps nothing.  By illuminating what happened it be prevented from happening again.  By having part of the flotilla break off it could jump start the admiralty into actually coming up with a solution and making them stronger than they were before.  Or the other quarians could hae a panic attack and destroy themselves; either way it is not Shepard's fault for revealing what Rael did.

If you want to act like nothing's wrong and let them continue these experiments and slimy political schemes then go ahead.  My advice is to reveal the truth.

As I said before in this thread, if there was a chance to give the evidence BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND NOT TO THE PUBLIC, I would do it. How the game handles this is just bad. I remind you I think that evidence SHOULD be shown, just not thrown to the public this way. It is a matter that should have been handled a bit separately.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 11 février 2011 - 04:17 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

MaaZeus wrote...

@Mystranna Kelteel

Bringing closure to the families was not the original point of the trial. The trial was there because they though Tali is responsible for the Geth outbreak on Alarei, and you are there to find evidence to oppose it. Rael's heinous crimes is something extra that you find out on Alarei. Most likely everyone in-the-know knew that there was something Geth related study going on, thats why they could blame Tali in the first place. No one in the trial or amongst civilians brought up that there was something very bad going on, only claims that Tali screwed up big time and sent Geth parts that activated ON THEIR OWN.

So, you throw this shocking evidence in their faces out of nowhere and without real need for it.

Shepard's goal is to act as Tali's representative.  Normally that would include getting evidence to exonerate her, which Rael's voice recording does beyond a shadow of a doubt.

So revealing that data is exactly what you should do in terms of "duty" at the trial.  And on top of that, you're there to exonerate Tali, and by the end of your mission she actually chooses to participate in the crimes by hiding them, thus making her guilty of exactly what they're accusing her.
So revealing the data also prevents her from becoming a traitor herself, gets her off the hook, and brings justice to the criminals.

Ignoring the data throws away your duty as Tali's representative and gets her exiled, which she might prefer, but that's only her biased opinion.
Ending the trial via speech is a Mary Sue moment to the extreme.  Getting Tali off the hook with absolutely zero evidence is not something I enjoy to see.  Tali's prior service is completely irrelevant to the trial.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 11 février 2011 - 04:17 .

[Xilizhra]

Well, the trial was political bull**** as it was, which the speeches at the end spend most of their time calling out.

[InvaderErl]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

Actually wouldn't that seriously dishonor everyone involved, not just Rael? They would be implicated as well, judging from Tali's reaction I doubt you would be bringing anyone any sort of peace.

They're all responsible for their crimes.

Not speaking to that, simply responding to your point about bringing closure to the families. I don't think they'd want that kind of closure.

[MaaZeus]

Perhaps, but in my eyes it is the lesser evil of the choices. I see no point in giving the evidence, not this way. In my eyes dropping a hube bomb like that might, or most likely, do more harm than good. Showing evidence could have been done in a different way.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 11 février 2011 - 04:22 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, the trial was political bull**** as it was, which the speeches at the end spend most of their time calling out.

No, it wasn't.  Tali sent geth parts to the Alarei and said parts were reassembled into actual geth.  The trial is very reasonable.  The admirals may be trying to take advantage of it to promote their personal issues, but that has nothing to do with Tali's accusation.  The speech options are basically coercing and/or guilting the admiralty board to dismiss their charges, which is stupid, especially when doing so actually makes Tali guilty by covering up the crimes.

InvaderErl wrote...
Not speaking to that, simply responding to your point about bringing closure to the families. I don't think they'd want that kind of closure.

I'm not in a position to judge what they may or may not want.  I personally would rather know the truth.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 11 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Cleveland Ninja wrote...

Holy crap.... I already failed Thane and Samara's Loyalty Missions

No offence but unless you did those things on purpose, the only thing I can do is laugh abit.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Shepard's goal is to act as Tali's
representative.  Normally that would include getting evidence to
exonerate her, which Rael's voice recording does beyond a shadow of a
doubt.

So revealing that data is exactly what you should do in
terms of "duty" at the trial.  And on top of that, you're there to
exonerate Tali, and by the end of your mission she actually chooses to
participate in the crimes by hiding them, thus making her guilty of
exactly what they're accusing her.
So revealing the data also
prevents her from becoming a traitor herself, gets her off the hook, and
brings justice to the criminals.

Ignoring the data throws away
your duty as Tali's representative and gets her exiled, which she might
prefer, but that's only her biased opinion.
Ending the trial via
speech is a Mary Sue moment to the extreme.  Getting Tali off the hook
with absolutely zero evidence is not something I enjoy to see.  Tali's
prior service is completely irrelevant to the trial.

No. Shepard's goal is to help Tali out and make sure she is focused on the mission. Which at first means helping her out at the trial as you said. However, once the evidence about Rael is found, the sitation changes abit and Tali's greatest desire is to make sure her father's legacy is not ruined.

[InvaderErl]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
Not speaking to that, simply responding to your point about bringing closure to the families. I don't think they'd want that kind of closure.

I'm not in a position to judge what they may or may not want.  I personally would rather know the truth.

That may be true but as far being what you PERSONALLY would want I think we need to remember that you or I are not Quarians living in a Floatilla and thus we hold some different values from them. I think Tali's attitude is a good indicator of what their reaction would be not to mention everything we know about the Quarians and the importance of honorable service to the fleet. Anything that violated that would likely bring nothing but shame.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 04:31 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

InvaderErl wrote...
That may be true but as far being what you PERSONALLY would want I think we need to remember that you or I are not Quarians living in a Floatilla and thus we hold some different values from them. I think Tali's attitude is a good indicator of what their reaction would be not to mention everything we know about the Quarians the importance of honorable service to the fleet. Anything that violated that would likely bring nothing but shame.

Erm, Tali is willingly and openly defying the quarian fleet's most sacred laws.  She says so herself.  I don't think she speaks on behalf of the people.
She's absurdly biased because she doesn't want her dead father vilified despite the fact that he is a villain.

Lizardviking wrote...
No. Shepard's goal is to help Tali out and make sure she is focused on the mission. Which at first means helping her out at the trial as you said. However, once the evidence about Rael is found, the sitation changes abit and Tali's greatest desire is to make sure her father's legacy is not ruined.

I can't speak for you, but my Shepard would not compromise her morals on such a serious crime for the sake of one biased engineer on her team.  Tali isn't that important to the mission individually.
And if this makes Tali perform worse in the mission it's really her own problem.  An acceptable loss imo, though she can still survive no problem, so there's no real issue there.

If Tali's greatest desire changed to blowing up the entire flotilla I'd not do it, just like I won't let Garrus kill Harkin nor let Zaeed tell me to let the workers burn.

[InvaderErl]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Erm, Tali is willingly and openly defying the quarian fleet's most sacred laws.  She says so herself.  I don't think she speaks on behalf of the people.

Which law was this again?

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

She's absurdly biased because she doesn't want her dead father vilified despite the fact that he is a villain.

And the family members of the dead... do? I don't see anyone thanking you for exposing their families to shame.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 04:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

I've always laughed when Tali trys to tell you off for revealing her father's crimes on the basis her defensiveness is 'a quarian thing, you wouldn't understand', when every other Quarian besides Xen will say that what Shepard did was right and that they're glad to clear Tali of it all. And Xen only disagrees because you made it harder to research the Geth.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

InvaderErl wrote...
A) Which law was this again?

And the family members of the dead... do? I don't see anyone thanking you for exposing their families to shame.

A) The law Rael broke was assembling new geth.  It has been illegal to make more geth since the geth revolution, and that is one of their sacred laws, for obvious reasons.

Some of the family members may like to know that their husband/wife/son/daughter died because some jackass was assembling the very entities that drove their species to exile and almost extinction, yes.

And knowing that they died because of such a thing may give the necessary fervor to actually take more measures in prventing it.  I think Rael deserves to be known as one of their worst war criminals.  If my father had committed a similar crime against my country/people/species I'd have no qualms with bringing him to justice, even posthumously.

[cachx]

My first time through the game I thought handing the evidence was the right thing to do too.

I thought Tali was going to come to terms with it eventually, boy was I wrong.

There was also no indication that I could see that handing the evidence was going to fracture the Flotilla, possibly dooming them all.

[AkiKishi]

Never needed to use the evidence. And since my main chracter would go to war with the Universe for Tali, it was never really an issue for him either way.

[CaptainZaysh]

I don't think what Rael did was that bad, particularly in light of Xen's promising email. It's nowhere near as bad as, say, impaling living civilians on mechanical spikes. F**k the geth.

[InvaderErl]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
A) Which law was this again?

And the family members of the dead... do? I don't see anyone thanking you for exposing their families to shame.

A) The law Rael broke was assembling new geth.  It has been illegal to make more geth since the geth revolution, and that is one of their sacred laws, for obvious reasons.

Some of the family members may like to know that their husband/wife/son/daughter died because some jackass was assembling the very entities that drove their species to exile and almost extinction, yes.

And knowing that they died because of such a thing may give the necessary fervor to actually take more measures in prventing it.  I think Rael deserves to be known as one of their worst war criminals.  If my father had committed a similar crime against my country/people/species I'd have no qualms with bringing him to justice, even posthumously.

Tali herself didn't break that law. She sent them parts that she thought her father was shooting at, which was not forbidden. She had no idea they were putting Geth back together to test hacking techniques on.

As for B. They would share the shame. They all willingly joined up and worked for Rael, he hardly held anyone at gunpoint or duped them into it.

As for the last bit that's not a debate I really want to get into, my contention was moreso with the idea that you would be somehow bringing the families of the dead some kind of closure, when I think quite the opposite would happen when we take into account everything we know about Quarians.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 04:49 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

InvaderErl wrote...
Tali herself didn't break that law. She sent them parts that she thought her father was shooting at, which was not forbidden. She had no idea they were putting Geth back together to test hacking techniques on.

As for B. They would share the shame. They all willingly joined up and worked for Rael, he hardly held anyone at gunpoint or duped them into it.

As for the last bit that's not a debate I really want to get into, my contention was moreso with the idea that you would be somehow bringing the families of the dead some kind of closure, when I think quite the opposite would happen when we take into account everything we know about Quarians.

When I'm talking about the victims of Rael's work I'm talking mostly of the completely innocent teams of quarian soldiers that were sent to investigate/help and were slaughtered.  I don't know if the entire crew of the Alarei was in on Rael's plans; the ones who were are guilty, yes.  But a lot more innocent people died in this.

As for Tali, she was innocent until she decided to beg you to cover it up.  At that point she is aiding and abetting.

[InvaderErl]

[quote]Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

When I'm talking about the victims of Rael's work I'm talking mostly of the completely innocent teams of quarian soldiers that were sent to investigate/help and were slaughtered.  I don't know if the entire crew of the Alarei was in on Rael's plans; the ones who were are guilty, yes.  But a lot more innocent people died in this.[/quote]

I did think you were specifically talking about the crew of the Alarei, I don't know how many people died boarding the ship but I don't know if it was as many as you make it seem.

Regardless, one innocent death IS too many and if Rael had been alive I would have persued justice regardless of Tali, but most of that thread has already been that debate from what I can see. I don't know if we'll cover any new ground there.

[/quote]

[quote]Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

As for Tali, she was innocent until she decided to beg you to cover it up.  At that point she is aiding and abetting.
[/quote]

She's guilty of a cover-up, yes, but she is in no way guilty of the actual experiments the results of which she destroys and not just because of Rael. Its clear she finds the experiments and their aim horrific (look at her response to Xen or on the Alerai in general).

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[jbblue05]

Hand over the Evidence.

The Flotilla has been the Quarians biggest strength and their biggest weakness. Dividing them will allow the Quarians to advance.  The war party can advance Dano Xen's research and the peace party can take more action in colonizing efforts.

If anything handing over the evidence hurts the war efforts.

Rael Zorah deserves to be exposed for what he did and its funny that Tali is all sad aboard the Normandy even after she survives the Suicide mission

[StowyMcStowstow]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
Tali herself didn't break that law. She sent them parts that she thought her father was shooting at, which was not forbidden. She had no idea they were putting Geth back together to test hacking techniques on.

As for B. They would share the shame. They all willingly joined up and worked for Rael, he hardly held anyone at gunpoint or duped them into it.

As for the last bit that's not a debate I really want to get into, my contention was moreso with the idea that you would be somehow bringing the families of the dead some kind of closure, when I think quite the opposite would happen when we take into account everything we know about Quarians.

When I'm talking about the victims of Rael's work I'm talking mostly of the completely innocent teams of quarian soldiers that were sent to investigate/help and were slaughtered.  I don't know if the entire crew of the Alarei was in on Rael's plans; the ones who were are guilty, yes.  But a lot more innocent people died in this.

As for Tali, she was innocent until she decided to beg you to cover it up.  At that point she is aiding and abetting.

Wow. You all thought way harder than I did on this mission: I didn't want to fail the mission, and I wanted full paragon, so I did what Tali asked. Simple as that.

However, revealing the evidence wouldn't have solved much, besides exonerating Tali, which you can do anyway. Revealing the evidence that Geth were activated on the Alarei by a Quarian might cause the board to over-react and might shove the Flotilla into the path of becoming a police state.Now, I never presented the evidence in the game, but that was my reason for not showing the evidence.  Well, most of it. I had a really good point, but then I lost it when I started thinking of something else.