93 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

InvaderErl wrote...
She's guilty of a cover-up, yes, but she is in no way guilty of the actual experiments the results of which she destroys and not just because of Rael. Its clear she finds the experiments and their aim horrific (look at her response to Xen or on the Alerai in general).

If she finds them horrific then that's all the more reason to bring them to light, imo.  At that point her reason for wanting to cover up those crimes are specifically personal ones in trying to protect her father's memory.

And I'm not about to sacrifice my morals for the whim of one emotionally-compromised engineer girl.

[InvaderErl]

Well at this point we're getting into subjective definitions of justice/crime/guilt and such to which there is no one final definitive answer.

Again if there were living perpetrators I would have done everything I could to expose them, as there were not I didn't feel the need to punish the dead and their families for the sake of satiating an abstract principle of justice. Obviously you feel differently but I doubt we're going to get much further than stating and restating these positions.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Rune-Chan]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
She's guilty of a cover-up, yes, but she is in no way guilty of the actual experiments the results of which she destroys and not just because of Rael. Its clear she finds the experiments and their aim horrific (look at her response to Xen or on the Alerai in general).

If she finds them horrific then that's all the more reason to bring them to light, imo.  At that point her reason for wanting to cover up those crimes are specifically personal ones in trying to protect her father's memory.

And I'm not about to sacrifice my morals for the whim of one emotionally-compromised engineer girl.

Well thar's your choice isn't it?

I don't see why you are needing to argue with every single person who doesn't intepret it the same way you do.

Most people disagree with you, and they aren't about to change their views because it is completely subjective.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 11 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[Cleveland Ninja]

Am I right guys?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Machines Are Us wrote...
Well thar's your choice isn't it?
I don't see why you are needing to argue with every single person who doesn't intepret it the same way you do.
Most people disagree with you, and they aren't about to change their views because it is completely subjective

Of course it's my choice.

And I'm free to discuss it as much as I wish.  It takes 2 to argue, and the OP asked for advice.  I only explained my stance and countered any feedback my stance got.

If you disagree with me then, hey, that's just swell.  No need to get melodramatic about it.

[JaerWolfe]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
She's guilty of a cover-up, yes, but she is in no way guilty of the actual experiments the results of which she destroys and not just because of Rael. Its clear she finds the experiments and their aim horrific (look at her response to Xen or on the Alerai in general).

If she finds them horrific then that's all the more reason to bring them to light, imo.  At that point her reason for wanting to cover up those crimes are specifically personal ones in trying to protect her father's memory.

And I'm not about to sacrifice my morals for the whim of one emotionally-compromised engineer girl.

Well thar's your choice isn't it?

I don't see why you are needing to argue with every single person who doesn't intepret it the same way you do.

Most people disagree with you, and they aren't about to change their views because it is completely subjective.

Actually, most people do not disagree with Mystranna. She is simply so good a presenting her case that there is really no reason for us to jump in on it as well. I don't see why you need to argue with someone who doesn't interpret it the same way you do.

Modifié par JaerWolfe, 11 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[Rune-Chan]

JaerWolfe wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...
She's guilty of a cover-up, yes, but she is in no way guilty of the actual experiments the results of which she destroys and not just because of Rael. Its clear she finds the experiments and their aim horrific (look at her response to Xen or on the Alerai in general).

If she finds them horrific then that's all the more reason to bring them to light, imo.  At that point her reason for wanting to cover up those crimes are specifically personal ones in trying to protect her father's memory.

And I'm not about to sacrifice my morals for the whim of one emotionally-compromised engineer girl.

Well thar's your choice isn't it?

I don't see why you are needing to argue with every single person who doesn't intepret it the same way you do.

Most people disagree with you, and they aren't about to change their views because it is completely subjective.

Actually, most people do not disagree with Mystranna. She is simply so good a presenting her case that there is really no reason for us to jump in on it as well. I don't see why you need to argue with someone who doesn't interpret it the same way you do.

Allow me to re-iterate, most people on this thread have disagreed and stated their reasons.

So it's just going back and forth saying "I don't agree with you".

If you actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that what I said was what you just said to me (I mean, Christ...).

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...
Well thar's your choice isn't it?
I don't see why you are needing to argue with every single person who doesn't intepret it the same way you do.
Most people disagree with you, and they aren't about to change their views because it is completely subjective

Of course it's my choice.

And
I'm free to discuss it as much as I wish.  It takes 2 to argue, and the
OP asked for advice.  I only explained my stance and countered any
feedback my stance got.

If you disagree with me then, hey, that's just swell.  No need to get melodramatic about it.

Melodramatic? You realise you can't interpret emotion psychically right? There were not emotional words in my reply whatsoever.

My point was that you have stated your opinion.
People have disagreed.
There is no need to re-state it a dozen more times as we can see what your stance is by reading what you have already said.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 11 février 2011 - 05:47 .

[MaaZeus]

In other words, we are throwing a ball here, something that has been done in quite a few threads of this subject before.



Catch!

[JaerWolfe]

Machines Are Us wrote...
snip
If you actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that what I said was what you just said to me (I mean Christ...).

Sweetie, if you couldn't figure out that was on purpose to point out that your opinion is no more or less import than Mystranna's then further debate is only going to confuse you more.

[Rune-Chan]

JaerWolfe wrote...

Machines Are Us wrote...
snip
If you actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that what I said was what you just said to me (I mean Christ...).

Sweetie, if you couldn't figure out that was on purpose to point out that your opinion is no more or less import than Mystranna's then further debate is only going to confuse you more.

So to summarise our exchange:

I said don't argue over something subjective to someone.
I clearly stated they have the right to their opinion, even though most people on this thread disagree (look at their bloody comments, it's not debatable).
You post a condescending response telling me not to argue.
I point out that I wasn't arguing, and tell you to re-read what I actually said.
You post yet another condescending response implying that I was arguing.

Forgive me if I don't bother coming back to this thread to see what other fascinating things you have to say.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 11 février 2011 - 05:59 .

[Kaltrec]

Both sides have good points, but in the end this is about protecting Tali's reputation with the fleet or her friendship with you.

Anyway, if you dont turn in the data during the trial, Admiral Xen finds some traces of it after you leave. The admirality board ends up with the facts no matter what you do.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Machines Are Us wrote...
Melodramatic? You realise you can't interpret emotion psychically right? There were not emotional words in my reply whatsoever.

My point was that you have stated your opinion.
People have disagreed.
There is no need to re-state it a dozen more times as we can see what your stance is by reading what you have already said.

I assumed you wouldn't come into this thread merely to tell me that people are disagreeing with me and I am arguing with them unless you saw some dramatic flaw in it.  And since there really was no drama in the "argument", which I would more accurately qualify as a discussion, then any drama you might have expected or brought with you was going to be melodrama.

Otherwise you're just stating the obvious and wasting time.  And there were emotional implications in your post, implying that I myself was wasting my time when "everyone disagrees with me".

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 11 février 2011 - 06:09 .

[StarGateGod]

Cleveland Ninja wrote...

Holy crap.... I already failed Thane and Samara's Loyalty Missions..... and Jack is disloyal....

well then sir you a re going to die lol, buy life insurance and go

[AdmiralCheez]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I assumed you wouldn't come into this thread merely to tell me that people are disagreeing with me and I am arguing with them unless you saw some dramatic flaw in it.

Condescending remark is condescending :/

And since there really was no drama in the "argument", which I would more accurately qualify as a discussion, then any drama you might have expected or brought with you was going to be melodrama.

Because you made a point to reply to everyone that you didn't agree with, kept repeating yourself, and pretty much ignored anything that didn't fit with your opinion, this could very well be classified as an "agrument."  And a pretty lousy one at that.

Otherwise you're just stating the obvious and wasting time.  And there were emotional implications in your post, implying that I myself was wasting my time when "everyone disagrees with me".

Generally, when someone on a forum states that someone is wasting time, the rest of the forumites will consider that person a douchebag.

And, looking back on your posts, you are kind of belligerent.

Just sayin', bro.  No offense intended.  I am respectfully asking you to cool it.

Anyway, I stand by what I said before: I'm not going to feed into the admiralty board's goofy little political game, I'm not going to betray a friend, and I'm not going to bother incriminating someone who has already paid the price for his crimes.  Also, if the quarians are still trying to wipe out or control the geth, then they obviously didn't learn their lesson the first time.  I'm not going to encourage another suicidal attack on their part, nor do I support returning thinking, feeling* creatures to slavery.  Unless I'm doing a particularly douchey renegade run, in which case I screw pretty much everybody.

*Legion's massive crush on Shepard is evidence enough for that.

[garrus and ashley fool]

yea it helps you with paragon would be wierd if it helped you with renegade

[naledgeborn]

Cleveland Ninja wrote...

Holy crap.... I already failed Thane and Samara's Loyalty Missions..... and Jack is disloyal....

"Ah yes, ME1 and it's bonuses on the PS3. We have dissmissed this claim." I got ME2 on PS3, thankfully I've also hadME1 & 2 on PC so I'm not missing the real experience. I'd suggest you do the same. Good luck on your mission.

[JG The Gamer]

HOLD IT!

From what I gather, quarians practice a variation of ancestral worship. This could apply to parents and grandparents. Tali perhaps had it bred into her to take the fall for her father to protect his honour. And once she found out he was corrupt, she decided that being exiled was better than him being dishonoured.

I just know that if my father did this, and I was the scapegoat, he'd be under the bus faster than you could say Keelah Se'lai.

The quarians probably didn't think they were able to take back their world yet while they wanted to, and others said we should push for peace because they couldn't beat the geth. Based on the evidence found, and based on what Admiral Xen says afterwards, I get the feeling Rael wasn't too far away from getting something usable against the geth. Now that the pro-war side is fired up from this new evidence proving that they may actually have a legit shot at beating the geth, the anti-war side gets louder too because they know they'll be swallowed up if they don't speak up about potential atrocities and bloodshed. This results in hostility and then a split. After floating around for 300 years in space with no 'homeworld' to call their own, and disagreements on what to do about it, this was going to come to a head whether it happened sooner, or in another 300 years. Unfortunately, Shepard had to be the one to do it.

Handing over the evidence is the right thing to do. The quarians need to know how corrupt their leaders are, and Tali is too emotional and conflicted to make a sound judgment. Sounds a bit contradictory based on what I said about ancestral worship, but Tali should not have to be treated like a war criminal for what her father did. And if the quarians are not capable of dealing with this information in a sound manner, they should have gone extinct 300 years ago. They're nearly incapable of accepting they made a mistake when they created the geth, and the galaxy is paying for that mistake as a result.

On a side note, I'd love for the option to kick disloyal teammates off the ship. When Tali becomes disloyal, I'd love for the chance to kick her off because her attitude is becoming a liability to the success of the mission.

On another side note, if Phoenix Wright was defending Tali, he'd not only get her off the hook, but one of the other admirals would be tried for war crimes instead.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I assumed you wouldn't come into this thread merely to tell me that people are disagreeing with me and I am arguing with them unless you saw some dramatic flaw in it.

Condescending remark is condescending :/

And since there really was no drama in the "argument", which I would more accurately qualify as a discussion, then any drama you might have expected or brought with you was going to be melodrama.

Because you made a point to reply to everyone that you didn't agree with, kept repeating yourself, and pretty much ignored anything that didn't fit with your opinion, this could very well be classified as an "agrument."  And a pretty lousy one at that.

Otherwise you're just stating the obvious and wasting time.  And there were emotional implications in your post, implying that I myself was wasting my time when "everyone disagrees with me".

Generally, when someone on a forum states that someone is wasting time, the rest of the forumites will consider that person a douchebag.

And, looking back on your posts, you are kind of belligerent.

Just sayin', bro.  No offense intended.  I am respectfully asking you to cool it.

I never lost my cool in this topic, nor did I attack anyone.  What exactly am I supposed to "cool"?  I made a point to discuss my differing viewpoints with the people I disagreed with, just as they made a point to respond in turn.  There's nothing wrong with a little debate or discussion.

And I don't think I ignored anything.  If I did it was to avoid repetitive arguing of points I already made, which I'm sure I didn't succeed completely, as that is the nature of these game arguments when it comes to these things.

"Garrus is awesome!"
"I dislike Garrus for reasons A, B, and C."
"Reasons A, B, and C, are not valid because of X, Y, and Z!"
"Reasons X, Y, and Z, are not valid in countering the validit yof A, B, and C because I believe in A, B, and C."

That's how they go sometimes, but taht doesn't mean the discussion is pointless.  People can and do change their perspectives from time to time.

[AdmiralCheez]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I never lost my cool in this topic, nor did I attack anyone.  What exactly am I supposed to "cool"?  I made a point to discuss my differing viewpoints with the people I disagreed with, just as they made a point to respond in turn.  There's nothing wrong with a little debate or discussion.

There is when you start telling other people that they're wasting time and being melodramatic.  That's snide and uncalled for.

And I don't think I ignored anything.  If I did it was to avoid repetitive arguing of points I already made, which I'm sure I didn't succeed completely, as that is the nature of these game arguments when it comes to these things.

AC: "I didn't give them the evidence because I didn't want to incite political conflict."

MK: "Political conflict is just a side effect.  You can't factor that into your decision because you don't know for sure."

AC: "Actually, if you listen carefully to what the admirals are saying, you can tell that this sort of thing could be really bad news."

MK: "It's still just a side effect."

AC: "Side effects are perfectly legitimate reasons to eliminate an option.  Would you take a medicine if it caused anal leakage?"

MK: "But you still don't know for sure!"

AC: *sighs and wonders if a "well, duh! that's the nature of predictions!" is necessary*

"Garrus is awesome!"
"I dislike Garrus for reasons A, B, and C."
"Reasons A, B, and C, are not valid because of X, Y, and Z!"
"Reasons X, Y, and Z, are not valid in countering the validit yof A, B, and C because I believe in A, B, and C."

Now see, I actually made a topic asking people to explain why they liked/disliked certain characters, so I'm all for intelligent reasoning.  I totally don't mind if people disagree with me so long as they aren't dicks about it.

However, when the are dicks about it, I get pissed.

That's how they go sometimes, but taht doesn't mean the discussion is pointless.  People can and do change their perspectives from time to time.

So what, you engaged in a battle of attrition in hopes that your superior endurance will win everyone over to your side?

I don't mind a good debate.  I don't mind being proven wrong.  I don't mind people disagreeing with me.

But, like I said before, I can't stand it when people get all dickish about it.

What I did in my previous post is point out that you were being kind of a jerk to Machines Are Us.  You reply with "I never lost my cool in this topic, nor did I attack anyone," when I just showed you precisely where you were getting kind of mean.

[James2912]

I personally wish there was a dialogue option to defend Rael. What is it with Bioware and not understanding that governments research their enemies! The US and Soviet Union researched **** tec they didn't just destroy everything because the ****s were monsters.IF you don't learn about your enemy you are a fool! I took a few military science classes in college and any military person would be shocked to learn that the quarians are not constantly studying and testing weapons on how to destroy the Geth.

[Xilizhra]

That's why you can choose to keep Maelon's genophage research.

[Quill74Pen]

Wulfram wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

If you feel that turning in the evidence is the right thing to do, go for it. However, as mentioned before, you'll get a ton of renegade points for doing so. Also, since Tali won't be loyal to you, the odds of her getting killed later shoot up drastically.

Basically, by turning in the evidence, you are pretty much sentencing her to death.

She's alive and miserable in one of my games.  As long as pretty much everyone else is loyal and you don't ask her to do anything special, she'll be OK

Hey, Tali, I hear you like running through vents. You do? Excellent! I've got a very special mission for you, then.

(Renegade) Quill74Pen

[CroGamer002]

Cleveland Ninja wrote...



Am I right guys?

[Barquiel]

I always hand the evidence over.



Rael'Zorah was a war criminal...and I don't care about the legacy of a war criminal. The deaths of all of the quarians on the Alarei were his fault, and I thought the quarians should know it.

[CroGamer002]

^You do realize that puts Quarians into chaos and many leave flotilla?