54 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaltrec]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Samara:

I am sure he says she was well into her matron stage when she had her daughters, so that'd put her around 400 at that time. ~400+440(Morinth's age)=~840.

I was always under the impression that the life stage of the asari were more of a state of mind than an age requirement, specialy the matron stage. But it comes down to the average numbers in the end so...yeah

[Zulu_DFA]

Kaltrec wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Samara:

I am sure she says she was well into her matron stage when she had her daughters, so that'd put her around 400 at that time. ~400+440(Morinth's age)=~840.

I was always under the impression that the life stage of the asari were more of a state of mind than an age requirement, specialy the matron stage. But it comes down to the average numbers in the end so...yeah

Samara also said that she had been very adventurous before settling down. By Asari standards, I suppose, it means centuries of travels.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 février 2011 - 08:07 .

[Markinator_123]

Shepard is quite young indeed eh

[Ieldra]

That Miranda *is* 35 is the most plausible assumption. here's an excerpt from the Miranda Lawson FAQ

I’m confused about Miranda’s age. How old is she?
The Mass Effect website says Miranda is 35. From in-game sources, we can conclude she is between 32 and 38: Miranda says she was a teenager when her father grew Oriana. Taking that literally, Miranda was between 13 and 19 then. Oriana is 19 when we meet her. So Miranda must be between 19+13 (32) and 19+19 (38).

If Miranda is 35 in ME2, she can’t have been exposed to eezo before birth. So how did she become a biotic?
The easy answer: the Mass Effect timeline, from 2148 onward, is a complete mess anyway and has a number of very implausible consequences. Don’t take the time scale seriously. Just ignore it.
For an in-world rationalization:  Assuming that eezo was discovered with the Prothean cache on Mars in 2148, she could have been accidentally exposed before birth, before the first publicly known eezo accidents. But it is doubtful that Miranda’s father would have risked exposure of her to anything that could adversely affect her perceived perfection. And since eezo’s effects on human children were not known until 2156, he couldn’t have done it on purpose. So how did she become a biotic? The Codex mentions that some krogan can become biotics through surgery. A possible scenario is that Miranda’s father tried a similar procedure on Miranda after first contact. Biotic implants have to be implanted before puberty for best effect, so there would have been a window of about three years for this experimental surgery.

  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 février 2011 - 09:09 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That Miranda *is* 35 is the most plausible assumption. here's an excerpt from the Miranda Lawson FAQ

Ieldra, your FAQ is wrong. It is based on the assumption that Oriana was 0 when Miranda kidnapped her, grabbing her right out of the incubation tube. But this is not supported by the game. Miranda and Oriana are, in fact, quite well acquainted. And the Eclipse liuetenant say the Daddy has been searching for Oriana "for more than a decade", which is not the construction used to designate a period of *almost two decades*.

Besides, trying to prove, that the game lore and first-tier canon in-game material (timeline, human understanding of biotics) is wrong, based on a piece of information coming from a blatanly innacurate source such as a promo web-page doesn't make you much credit.

The fan-fictious ideas about how Miranda could have been surgically "implanted with biotics" later also don't stand against reason: she was "engineered to be perfect" from the get go, and, more importantly, it's also against the concept of human biotics, which are based on natural potential of the subject acquired due to genetic mutation during fetal development. Biotic implants and amplifiers only enhance that potential. But without natural potential there is nothing to enhance, so no implanting with anything.

In any case, this advice of yours...

If Miranda is 35 in ME2, she can’t have been exposed to eezo before birth. So how did she become a biotic?
 The easy answer: the Mass Effect timeline, from 2148 onward, is a complete mess anyway and has a number of very implausible consequences. Don’t take the time scale seriously. Just ignore it.

... applies to the real world "Universe" page a lot faster than to in-game history books: "Miranda is 35" makes zero sense, therefore just f*cking ingnore it.

Why do you cling to this figure so much?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 février 2011 - 09:55 .

[Ieldra]

Zulu, the merc in Miranda's LM mentions that Miranda "kidnapped a baby" and Miranda does not deny it. She also says *explicitly* that her father grew Oriana when she was a teenager and that Oriana is 19 now.

So in fact, all the available evidence points to Miranda being around 35, except the problem with her biotics. Given that the biotics problem is easily circumvented by things mentioned in the Codex while the evidence *for* Miranda being around 35, which is based on far more than the promo site, is not so easily explained away, plainly it's *your* theory that makes no sense. Your theory requires far more information we're given to be wrong, while my theory requires only that biotics can be implanted into humans the same way they can be implanted to krogans. Which is not that implausible.

Regarding the timeline inconsistency, it's easy to see that the timeline is implausibly compressed to the point of ridiculousness. This is not based on Miranda's given age alone, but on several other factors, most importantly the rise of humanity to a position of power in 35 years. But as explained, I do not need that to explain Miranda's biotics....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 février 2011 - 10:07 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

[Zulu_DFA]

DJCS wrote...

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

Who, when and where?

[Pepper4]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DJCS wrote...

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

Who, when and where?

The ME site.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Zulu, the merc in Miranda's LM mentions that Miranda "kidnapped a baby" and Miranda does not deny it. She also says *explicitly* that her father grew Oriana when she was a teenager and that Oriana is 19 now.

Under certain circumstances, that merc would call Miranda herself a "baby". Under given circumstances, I'd say it designates Oriana's age at the time of kidnapping as anywhere between 0 and 12.

Ieldra2 wrote...

So in fact, all the available evidence points to Miranda being around 35, except the problem with her biotics. Given that the biotics problem is easily circumvented by things mentioned in the Codex

Like what?

Ieldra2 wrote...

while the evidence *for* Miranda being around 35, which is based on far more than the promo site, is not so easily explained away,

What evidence? the word "grew" only means the process of heartless upbringing and education program the Daddy had his babies undergo. See, how easily it is explained away!

Or do you also think that the Krogans lay eggs, just becasue O'Keer said "clutch"?

Ieldra2 wrote...

plainly it's *your* theory that makes no sense.

Miranda working for Cerberus for 20 years (more than a half of her life) makes no sense, given her possibility to suddenly see the "darker" side of the organization, and quit.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Your theory requires far more information we're given to be wrong, while my theory requires only that

My theory is: dismiss the damn "Universe" page, because it totally sucks.
Your theory is: dismiss the in-game history, because the game totally sucks. (Well, I could even get behind the latter part, but to dismiss the basis of the entire lore of the series would be taking it a little too far.)

Ieldra2 wrote...

biotics can be implanted into humans the same way they can be implanted to krogans. Which is not that implausible.

It is implausible, becasue the Krogans don't get "implaned with biotics". They get implanted with biotic amplifiers  upon confirmation that they have natural potential. The same way as the Humans.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Regarding the timeline inconsistency, it's easy to see that the timeline is implausibly compressed to the point of ridiculousness.

This is no ground to outright dismiss it. Within itself it is not contradictory.

And the fact that the "Universe" page contains almost as many obvious mistakes and discrepancies with the in-game material as bragging about how awesome the game called ME2 is, certainly is ground to dismiss it altogether as an *unreliable source*.

All right, no point in arguing further. Since you're not going to listen anyway. Don't take it as an attempt to personally insult you, just an honest layman's opinion. You seem to me to be one of the most logical and rational posters here, but when it comes to your favorite character, you become obsessed, and it clouds your judgement. Anything related to Miranda is suddenly more important than everything else. And everything else  will be dimissed before the "35".

Of course, it's a pity BioWare screwed up the "perfect" character this way, but with all due respect, dismissing in-game material in favor of an on-line commercial is plain stupid.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 février 2011 - 11:25 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Pepper4 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DJCS wrote...

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

Who, when and where?

The ME site.

Try again.

[Ieldra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Zulu, the merc in Miranda's LM mentions that Miranda "kidnapped a baby" and Miranda does not deny it. She also says *explicitly* that her father grew Oriana when she was a teenager and that Oriana is 19 now.

Under certain circumstances, that merc would call Miranda herself a "baby". Under given circumstances, I'd say it designates Oriana's age at the time of kidnapping as anywhere between 0 and 12.

A baby of 12. Yeah. That sounds so very plausible (/sarcasm)

Ieldra2 wrote...
while the evidence *for* Miranda being around 35, which is based on far more than the promo site, is not so easily explained away,

What evidence? the word "grew" only means the process of heartless upbringing and education program the Daddy had his babies undergo. See, how easily it is explained away!

The word "grew" used transitively is not used to refer to upbringing. You're twisting language to support your theory.

My theory is: dismiss the damn "Universe" page, because it totally sucks.

I did not claim Miranda was 35. I claim she was between 32 and 38, based on the reasoning given, and that supports the figure given on the site, quite accidentally.

All right, no point in arguing further. Since you're not going to listen anyway.

Dito, Zulu. I say you're too hung up on dismissing everything on that page because Zaeed's age make no sense.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Dito, Zulu. I say you're too hung up on dismissing everything on that page because Zaeed's age make no sense.

Just as Mordin's, Grunt's, Jack's, Miranda's, Liara's and Legion's.. oh wait, Legion is still classified!

[Opedal]

Ok so Ive done some small adjustments to the various ages. Ive used my own 820 assumtion of Samara, and cranked it up 30 years. I did this, because she had already entered her Matron stage for some time, when she had her children, as Zulu_DFA pointed out. Other changes include Zaeeds minimum age going up, and Vidos maximum going up. Kai Leng with one year. It all depends how you interprete "soon" in his jailtime context, if soon after, equals a few months. Or if its soon, as in a few years vs 20 years. Still our minimum age asumtions were quite similar Zulu_DFA.

Also edited Mordins age, but kept the 50 as an alternative. I personally found it odd myself, however one can interperate his words in two ways. He may mean, that he is no exception to, the salarians not living much past 40. And that he therefore, as a man of 40+ years, has entered his last decade. Which would support 50, or atleast 40+. This is not an argument I stand by, but its there.

I never said Jack Harper was 20 years old, in the first contact war. I said he looks like it, on some of the pictures. My estimate was that he was 28 at the time, something that is reflected in the age on display. However I adjusted the 28 to 30 instead.

Before moving on, I agree that the wiki, and certainly the ME2 site, should, and in the latter case, MUST, be taken with a grain of salt. However that beeing said, I must say I support Miranda beeing 35 years old.

For several reasons, some already mentioned. The word baby, in Orianas context, means literally a baby. You can stretch it to beeing 2/3 years old, 5 or more is pushing it alot. As an example, lets say Miranda was 15 when she fled, and Oriana was 2 at the time.  Oriana is 19 in ME2. So that would make Mirandas age 32. Way above 25. She could also have been 17, when she ran away, and Oriana 1 as well. Which would put her age at 35.

Also as a sidenote, Zulu_DFA, Oriana and MIranda are not good aquainted. Oriana has been raised in a sheltered home, with foster parents, away from Miranda most her life. Oriana was not aware she had a sister untill she met Miranda in ME2. (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think Im right)

Other factors that support her age beeing 35 are: The way she behaves, carries herself, her natural authority, all suggest a more mature age than 25. The fact, that she has been with cerberus, before the Lazarus project. As an example, I can mention the mission Jacob did with her, on the citadel. Also, she would not have been put, as head for the lazarus project, at 23 years old. She must have had, to shown her loyalty, and been a trusted cerberus asset, to get that posting. Also she probably spent a few years on the run from her father before getting in contact with cerberus, (her wiki bio also suggests this).

The only single thing, that points to her beeing 25, is the whole biotic ignorance at the time of her "birth" thing. Which is major I grant you. Unless theres some truth to some of the conspiracy theories, inside the ME universe. Which could justify. her father having knowledge somehow of biotic powers. Unlikely, and not something I think, just putting it out there. Also before anyone says "but she looks to young to be 35", humans, in the mass effect universe, live to be well over a 100, up towards 150. This is not reflected to good, in the looks of characters in the games.But it is in the books.

Besides she has been genetically modified to look perfect. The argument, that she wouldnt quit cerberus, after so many years of service, is hollow. She was not aware of the full extent of cruelty Cerberus has done, such as the experiments on biotic children like Jack. Her knowledge of dfferent Cerberus projejcts is limited, like all cerberus cells. Also sometimes, one just need to hear things, and see things with ones own eyes to really get an impression/be convinced of something. Well the illusive mans wish to keep the collector base and the experiments thats cost hundreds of thousands of lives, is what tipped the scale.
Paul Grayson quit cerberus, even after having cerberus for many years. He just had to have a good reason

The whole biotic:wizard: thing with Miranda is simply bioware screwing up the timeline. Atleast thats the way I see it. Because if Miranda is 25ish that means she would have ben 6-8 years running away from her father. I dont really see that going on. The theory that Bioware screwed up, by forgetting when Humans actually learned about biotics seems more plausible to me.

I am not good at arguing I know, but theres my 2 cents at least.

However I am greatefull for all input. Discussion, is a good catalyst to finding the best answer .

Modifié par Opedal, 14 février 2011 - 04:00 .

[DJ CAVE SLAVE]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DJCS wrote...

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

Who, when and where?

I don't remember, but I think shepard says it.

[Zulu_DFA]

Opedal wrote...


Also as a sidenote, Zulu_DFA, Oriana and MIranda are not good aquainted. Oriana has been raised in a sheltered home, with foster parents, away from Miranda most her life. Oriana was not aware she had a sister untill she met Miranda in ME2. (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think Im right)

If you make them meet each other at the end of Miranda's Loyalty mission, in the Shadow Broker's Dossier on Miranda there will be a personal mail exchange between her and Oriana. It doesn't look like they are newly acquainted. It looks like They know each other for a long time, but obviously Miranda has been always away in the recent years, so when could they become so friendly? calling each other "Ori" and "Randa" and "Sis"...

Opedal wrote...

Other factors that support her age beeing 35 are: The way she behaves, carries herself, her natural authority, all suggest a more mature age than 25. The fact, that she has been with cerberus, before the Lazarus project. As an example, I can mention the mission Jacob did with her, on the citadel. Also, she would not have been put, as head for the lazarus project, at 23 years old. She must have had, to shown her loyalty, and been a trusted cerberus asset, to get that posting. Also she probably spent a few years on the run from her father before getting in contact with cerberus, (her wiki bio also suggests this).

She says she joined Cerberus when "she was old enogh to know it was what she wanted". That implies the age between 14 and 17, a well as a lot of confidence and "natural authourity". And at least six years to prove her loyalty before leading the Lazarus Project.

Opedal wrote...

Paul Grayson quit cerberus, even after having cerberus for many years. He just had to have a good reason

TIM was pushing him real hard, and he had had his doubts for quite a long time. In fact, he is shown to hate TIM in the very beginning of the book.

Miranda, on the contrary, has all the reason to stay with Cerebrus (Oriana), which makes her decision impulsive and taken in a spur of a moment. And her "natural authourity" wanes away by the end on the game. Jack even doesn't treat her as an older woman. Sheuses the term "cheerleader", which implies that Miranda to her is mot much more that an arrogant schoolgirl  placed where she is not by any kind or real merit, but simply for the "looks".

Opedal wrote...

The whole biotic:wizard: thing with Miranda is simply bioware screwing up the timeline.

BioWare did not screw up the timeline.

BioWare screwed up th "Universe" page (Hell, it even lists both Ashley and Kaidan as alive&kicking!). Without this page, nobody would even ever think that Miranda could be over thirty.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 février 2011 - 09:40 .

[Zulu_DFA]

DJCS wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

DJCS wrote...

Somewhere in the game it says mordin is pushing 50

Who, when and where?

I don't remember, but I think shepard says it.

Oh, I see. And I think you actually read it on the "Universe" page.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...



Also, Samara. It says she's "Estimated 600 human years". Only in the game, she says she's nearly a thousand. Sure, you can rationalize that one if you want, but don't kid yourself that whoever wrote it either just plain didn't get their facts straight, or was working from early development notes or something.

QFT.



And like it or not, this equally applies to all information on that page.

[Ieldra]

Opedal wrote...
The only single thing, that points to her beeing 25, is the whole biotic ignorance at the time of her "birth" thing. Which is major I grant you. Unless theres some truth to some of the conspiracy theories, inside the ME universe. Which could justify. her father having knowledge somehow of biotic powers. Unlikely, and not something I think, just putting it out there. Also before anyone says "but she looks to young to be 35", humans, in the mass effect universe, live to be well over a 100, up towards 150. This is not reflected to good, in the looks of characters in the games.But it is in the books.

I'm using this explanation:

For an in-world rationalization:  Assuming that eezo was discovered with the Prothean cache on Mars in 2148, she could have been accidentally exposed before birth, before the first publicly known eezo accidents.
But it is doubtful that Miranda’s father would have risked exposure of her to anything that could adversely affect her perceived perfection. And since eezo’s effects on human children were not known until 2156, he couldn’t have done it on purpose. So how did she become a biotic? The Codex mentions that some krogan can become biotics through surgery. A possible scenario is that Miranda’s father tried a similar procedure on Miranda after first contact. Biotic implants have to be implanted before puberty for best effect, so there would have been a window of about
three years for this experimental surgery.

And....

Besides she has been genetically modified to look perfect. The argument, that she wouldnt quit cerberus, after so many years of service, is hollow. She was not aware of the full extent of cruelty Cerberus has done, such as the experiments on biotic children like Jack. Her knowledge of dfferent Cerberus projejcts is limited, like all cerberus cells. Also sometimes, one just need to hear things, and see things with ones own eyes to really get an impression/be convinced of something. Well the illusive mans wish to keep the collector base and the experiments thats cost hundreds of thousands of lives, is what tipped the scale.
Paul Grayson quit cerberus, even after having cerberus for many years. He just had to have a good reason

The whole bioti thing with Miranda is simply bioware screwing up the timeline. Atleast thats the way I see it. Because if Miranda is 25ish that means she would have ben 6-8 years running away from her father. I dont really see that going on. The theory that Bioware screwed up, by forgetting when Humans actually learned about biotics seems more plausible to me.

Just this. Anything else is much too convoluted. Miranda's behaviour, her backstory, and, well, *EVERYTHING* in the game but that biotic problem points to Miranda being around 35.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The Codex mentions that some krogan can become biotics through surgery.

Screenshot please.

I have been able to find only this reference to biotic Krogans in the Codex:

http://s944.photobuc...oticKrogans.jpg

Nothing about surgery there.

Ieldra2 wrote...

A possible scenario is that Miranda’s father tried a similar procedure on Miranda after first contact.

Why would he, if he could simply "engineer" himself a new heir, as he did later.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Biotic implants have to be implanted before puberty for best effect, so there would have been a window of about
three years for this experimental surgery.

Biotic implants can only amplify natural potential. You can't make a biotic out of a subject whose nervous system (basically, a network of electricity conductors) lacks the special "nodules" that generate the dark energy pulse.

http://s944.photobuc...DFA/Biotics.jpg

So yeah, Miranda did undergo the surgery, she has implants, but they only amplify her natural (engineered) biotic potential. By contrast, Oriana probably wasn't implanted, so her natural potential has gone to waste by now(possibly, it was part of the idea of the "normal life" for her, that Miranda wanted).

(On a side note, a real plot hole in the game is that Jack is able to unleash her full biotic power in the cutscene where she is released from her stasis cell on the Purgatory. That means Warden Kuril forgot to take her bio-amp away from her, when he was locking her up. And his enterprise was going to be quite f*cked up anyway, even without Shepard's arrival.)

Ieldra2 wrote...

Anything else is much too convoluted. Miranda's behaviour, her backstory, and, well, *EVERYTHING* in the game but that biotic problem points to Miranda being around 35.

*EVERYTHING* in the game points that Miranda is younger than 30.

- Jack calls her a "cheerleader". I've never heard of 35-year-old cheerleaders.

- Despite all her rationality, she has an emotional and even immature side to her (her behavior during catfight with Jack, and especially the reaction to Shepard's siding with Jack).

- Ignorance of the Cerberus' "darker" side. Rapid shift from fascination to disenchantment with TIM. This both supports the previous point, and indicates that she hasn't been with the organization long enough.

- She and Oriana know each other from before their runaway times - if they weren't, they couldn't have become that friendy after what would have been their first ("Hi, I'm Miranda, your long lost twin sister!") meeting to have the kind of chat Miranda's dossier in the Shadow Broker's database features (also, Oriana goes by the nick "OrianaL", heavily implying that her surname is "Lawson" too, and it may be in fact her foster parents' surname).

- The simple fact that Oriana is an object of sentimental attachment of both Miranda and the Daddy, points to her not being fresh out of the incubation tube when Miranda stole her (otherwise, the Daddy would just have yet another "dynasty" created for him). Even Niket shows signs of having known Oriana as a person and caring about what's best for her (besides his own fee, of course).

You see, if you had become interested and fascinated with Miranda's character even before the game came out, and read this "35" crap on the promo page, it's kinda understandable that you'd be interpretting semantics and bending the facts to fit with the preconception you had previously acquired.

[Ieldra]

You have said nothing to invalidate my age calculation, Zulu. Let's keep it at that. Most of your arguments are about character, not about facts or plausible speculation. No weight at all. Retro-engineering biotic ability by implanting eezo nodules seems much more plausible to me than ignoring everything that's ever said about Oriana's and Miranda's backstory.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You have said nothing to invalidate my age calculation, Zulu. Let's keep it at that. Most of your arguments are about character, not about facts or plausible speculation. No weight at all. Retro-engineering biotic ability by implanting eezo nodules seems much more plausible to me than ignoring everything that's ever said about Oriana's and Miranda's backstory.

Retro-engineering biotic ability... yeah, right. Sounds tougher than what they did to Jack, actually.

Any chance you give me that Krogan linky?

[Eber]

The krogan thing (biotics by operation) is from the Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183 that came with the CE of ME1. Someone who has it could probably get you an exact quote. It could easily be brushed aside though.

While the print codex was based on BioWare's game documentation, it was actually written by Microsoft. Not all documents they were provided with had been properly updated. When the in-game codex and print codex contradict (for example, the current location of Gagarin Station), defer to the in-game codex.

[Zulu_DFA]

Eber wrote...

The krogan thing (biotics by operation) is from the Galactic Codex: Essentials Edition 2183 that came with the CE of ME1. Someone who has it could probably get you an exact quote.

Thanks. I'll look it up.

Eber wrote...

It could easily be brushed aside though.

While the print codex was based on BioWare's game documentation, it was actually written by Microsoft. Not all documents they were provided with had been properly updated. When the in-game codex and print codex contradict (for example, the current location of Gagarin Station), defer to the in-game codex.

Kinda like the "Universe" page, huh? Some EA guy who runs this and another dozen sites got some material from Mac Walters (via Casey Hudson, probably), but had to pull the characters' ages out of his own ass, because he thought it would be cool to have them, but they were not in Mac's docs.

[FireEye]

Kaidan is allegedly 35, according to the ME2 site pages.  From what I understand, he's from the first batch of the first generation of known human biotics.

Something of a stretch to me, but if Miranda was incubating at the same time as Kaidan was gestating, they could have both been hit by the same exposure in Singapore.  That is, her biotics weren't planned and she was lucky to have survived + developed biotic potential.

... or they'll say her father knew about biotics before anyone else and planned it. 

As for krogan, I thought that they intentionally exposed their unborn to eezo in an attempt at making biotic warriors, up until the birthrates dropped and every child became precious.  But I don't remember where that came from, so... *shrug?*

Modifié par FireEye, 15 février 2011 - 12:18 .