OK so I was reading a little while ago about some work done with merging items when shapeshifting etc. and it basically brought wildshape and polymorphing in general to my attention. So, I figured it might as well be the next thing to get fixed. The thing is, that the polymorph system in NWN(2) is so messed up that I'm not sure where to start, or even what I actually want to do. I was thinking of just adding my own version of an item-property-merging system, but I don't like how wildshape is handled generally. So, I figured I'd pick people's brain on the matter. What do people actually want from wildshape? What would make you want to play a druid? Should wildshape even exist, or would it be kinder just to cut it and replace it with interesting abilities more akin to Elephant's Hide? Thoughts, suggestions, fire away.
P.S. I was going to put this in the scripting forum, but I'm after player opinions as much as (if not more than) those of builders.
The Fix List: Wildshape
Débuté par
The Fred
, févr. 12 2011 05:56
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#2
Posté 12 février 2011 - 07:33
painofdungeoneternal
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use kaedrins fixes - why reinvent the wheel. He has what you are talking about finished as well as really is possible, if want to do more you should start where he stopped.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 12 février 2011 - 07:35 .
#3
Posté 13 février 2011 - 06:19
The Fred
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The thing is that I don't like how polymorphing works full stop - for example, when you polymorph into a humanoid shape, you ought to be able to talk in conversation, cast spells and use your equipment like normal etc. The merging stuff and Kaedrin's various fixes are good but I don't necessarily want to implement all of them or in exactly the same way. Regardless, what I'm asking is more how people would like wildshape to function generally.
#4
Posté 13 février 2011 - 07:11
painofdungeoneternal
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You can talk when shifted, and cast spells IF you have certain feats. Not sure on dialogs, but that would be something that can be added/fixed to the dialogs and can coexist with kaedrins code. The way this is done in the OC has nothing to do with anything except poor coding there, hopefully kaldors fixes address this. I did add the feature so you end up talking the animal language when you change form, kind of still hashing how this works, but certain rules will apply to this.
Equipment is not supposed to be usable, it's gone and becomes what you shift into - otherwise your clothes would end up like the incredible hulks and ripped to shreds, which actually would be a fun feature actually.
Quite a bit of this is work i have had in progress. The pains monster pack is geared towards eventual implementation of master of many forms class. I really need to get more work done, feats for each monster, polymorph.2da and blueprints increased soas to support each and every monster. Much of this is building a foundation, once one level is done you can work on the next level. Ideally a specialist like kaedrin or you does the class, hellfire does the models, etc.
Code wise the changes kaedrin does should apply to most Shifting. If you do a different sort of shift, ie you change from a human to a kobold, i can see keeping the spells and gear like you are suggesting. But if you shift into a Bear, you should not have access to that backpack anymore, nor the opposable thumb needed to open a scroll and read it. I would suggest implementing your work as something that works besides and is compatible, but then the current tensers transformation basically implements this. The issue of your power lowering in bear form should be fixed by rebalancing the rules ( stats of that bear and feats he has ) but that requires much care as druids are pretty powerful as is especially with kaedrins new classes.
Technically directly changing appearance instead of polymorph is fraught with issues, log out and reenter and you make whatever your appearance was permament, i've got some code for dealing with this but i've still had to manually fix things on players when they log/crash at the wrong time. I am also looking at nwnx_craft to provide some support for items and the like, and a way to memorize appearances, but a lot of the options that work on a PW don't work on a SP game. I am thinking my new idea for saving integers as feats will enable me to "fix" the bugs though, but i have not had time to see if this solves the issues in appearance changes, but this does not affect stats/skills and the like - the issue being there with likely glitches giving unwarranted gifts to the player of permanent boosts, but it is an option. I kind of think the best that can be safely done will be similar to NWN1s result, using skins. Note 010010 has a fix for the AC getting messed up when using creature skins which was a pretty major obstacle.
Special abilities from forms are dependent on redoing monster abilities as feats, soas to make the AI and other parts of the game able to deal with them better, and to make sure they work right for players. After this is done it's a simple matter to add them as special abilities, which is something of an end goal for my monster pack to support ( its actually why i prepared it to be a foundation for this ), and pretty critical for the DM possessing them. Right now the abilties a monster has are done up much less than a characters abilities, with just marginal implementations of descriptions, icons, etc and quite a few feats from the monster manual not even present. This is really the core issue with wildshape. ( my dataobject system is geared towards making this doable as well ).
I would really like to keep everyone working in such a way so each is compatible, so it is adding new features and not replacing old features, and so i can actually use what you are doing. ( ie you either use this, or kaedrins, or have to spend months merging the two systems ). Nothing you are talking about really could not coexist with existing features, and really sounds like a nice additional system that can implement "Alter Self" and other spells. I've wrestled with kaedrins code for a long time with a lot of back and forth, it's stable, and deals with a lot of subtle issues, and think it's a good idea to use it as a foundation-actually at this point it's kind of scary to not use it. I am using a variation of his which routes everything to a single include, might be something you want to look at.
To describe what i mean by adding and not replacing, i have in progress a system to add mana. However i don't want to change wizards and sorcerors from vancian, i want it to be used by a NEW class only, so it adds another option. Those who like old fashioned wizards keep them as is, and those who like mana can choose to play the other class. I will balance out the power level so they are not better or worse than wizards.
IE if you are 1st level druid it's a regular polymorph, if it's a alter self you get to keep your items but look like an ogre, if you have natural spell you can keep casting. New forms would be able to use entirely new rules, the old forms should basically work similar to how kaedrin has them. A real master of many forms class would have other options of course, and using the creatures abilties is really the key missing feature. And if you enter a special "cheat" option which a player can set, or controllable by a PW you can just ignore the "rules" and use gear and spells no matter what. The other real killer feature is making your self look like an enemy and thus sneaking into that enemy fortress, which is really AI. Thus everyone is happy.
Equipment is not supposed to be usable, it's gone and becomes what you shift into - otherwise your clothes would end up like the incredible hulks and ripped to shreds, which actually would be a fun feature actually.
Quite a bit of this is work i have had in progress. The pains monster pack is geared towards eventual implementation of master of many forms class. I really need to get more work done, feats for each monster, polymorph.2da and blueprints increased soas to support each and every monster. Much of this is building a foundation, once one level is done you can work on the next level. Ideally a specialist like kaedrin or you does the class, hellfire does the models, etc.
Code wise the changes kaedrin does should apply to most Shifting. If you do a different sort of shift, ie you change from a human to a kobold, i can see keeping the spells and gear like you are suggesting. But if you shift into a Bear, you should not have access to that backpack anymore, nor the opposable thumb needed to open a scroll and read it. I would suggest implementing your work as something that works besides and is compatible, but then the current tensers transformation basically implements this. The issue of your power lowering in bear form should be fixed by rebalancing the rules ( stats of that bear and feats he has ) but that requires much care as druids are pretty powerful as is especially with kaedrins new classes.
Technically directly changing appearance instead of polymorph is fraught with issues, log out and reenter and you make whatever your appearance was permament, i've got some code for dealing with this but i've still had to manually fix things on players when they log/crash at the wrong time. I am also looking at nwnx_craft to provide some support for items and the like, and a way to memorize appearances, but a lot of the options that work on a PW don't work on a SP game. I am thinking my new idea for saving integers as feats will enable me to "fix" the bugs though, but i have not had time to see if this solves the issues in appearance changes, but this does not affect stats/skills and the like - the issue being there with likely glitches giving unwarranted gifts to the player of permanent boosts, but it is an option. I kind of think the best that can be safely done will be similar to NWN1s result, using skins. Note 010010 has a fix for the AC getting messed up when using creature skins which was a pretty major obstacle.
Special abilities from forms are dependent on redoing monster abilities as feats, soas to make the AI and other parts of the game able to deal with them better, and to make sure they work right for players. After this is done it's a simple matter to add them as special abilities, which is something of an end goal for my monster pack to support ( its actually why i prepared it to be a foundation for this ), and pretty critical for the DM possessing them. Right now the abilties a monster has are done up much less than a characters abilities, with just marginal implementations of descriptions, icons, etc and quite a few feats from the monster manual not even present. This is really the core issue with wildshape. ( my dataobject system is geared towards making this doable as well ).
I would really like to keep everyone working in such a way so each is compatible, so it is adding new features and not replacing old features, and so i can actually use what you are doing. ( ie you either use this, or kaedrins, or have to spend months merging the two systems ). Nothing you are talking about really could not coexist with existing features, and really sounds like a nice additional system that can implement "Alter Self" and other spells. I've wrestled with kaedrins code for a long time with a lot of back and forth, it's stable, and deals with a lot of subtle issues, and think it's a good idea to use it as a foundation-actually at this point it's kind of scary to not use it. I am using a variation of his which routes everything to a single include, might be something you want to look at.
To describe what i mean by adding and not replacing, i have in progress a system to add mana. However i don't want to change wizards and sorcerors from vancian, i want it to be used by a NEW class only, so it adds another option. Those who like old fashioned wizards keep them as is, and those who like mana can choose to play the other class. I will balance out the power level so they are not better or worse than wizards.
IE if you are 1st level druid it's a regular polymorph, if it's a alter self you get to keep your items but look like an ogre, if you have natural spell you can keep casting. New forms would be able to use entirely new rules, the old forms should basically work similar to how kaedrin has them. A real master of many forms class would have other options of course, and using the creatures abilties is really the key missing feature. And if you enter a special "cheat" option which a player can set, or controllable by a PW you can just ignore the "rules" and use gear and spells no matter what. The other real killer feature is making your self look like an enemy and thus sneaking into that enemy fortress, which is really AI. Thus everyone is happy.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 février 2011 - 08:10 .
#5
Posté 13 février 2011 - 07:52
painofdungeoneternal
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Shifter 2.0 request by Mokah
And example system for Summoning 2.0, i want to make shifting and the available shapes in a similar manner, with included blueprints. Lot of things for summoning, monster abilities and additions to the AI needed are closely related. Learning of forms i also want as an option so a caster can study a form and learn it IF they have a given feat, probably limited to a set number of slots.
And example system for Summoning 2.0, i want to make shifting and the available shapes in a similar manner, with included blueprints. Lot of things for summoning, monster abilities and additions to the AI needed are closely related. Learning of forms i also want as an option so a caster can study a form and learn it IF they have a given feat, probably limited to a set number of slots.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 février 2011 - 08:00 .
#6
Posté 13 février 2011 - 07:54
I_Raps
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The biggest problem with shapeshifting (both druidical and arcane) is that you forget spells. Has kaedrin solved that? (I'm going to download his latest when my ISP gets right, hopefully any minute now 
).
).
Modifié par I_Raps, 13 février 2011 - 07:55 .
#7
Posté 13 février 2011 - 08:03
painofdungeoneternal
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I_Raps wrote...
The biggest problem with shapeshifting (both druidical and arcane) is that you forget spells. Has kaedrin solved that? (I'm going to download his latest when my ISP gets right, hopefully any minute now
He has to a large degree, he adds protective stat boosts to replace what you lose via items. ( note that this is the required fix and is tempermental, you have to save/export your character to flush out any possible bugs in a PW setting - sometimes it seems to work )
If you are still having an issue, report it, it works pretty well, and he has spells to allow casting in warlock forms ( gutteral invocations ) which is very nice, and an option to do it as a wizard.
Note his latest release is being re-released with fixes on monday after feedback.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 février 2011 - 08:09 .
#8
Posté 13 février 2011 - 08:16
I_Raps
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
He has to a large degree, he adds protective stat boosts to replace what you lose via items. ( note that this is the required fix and is tempermental
I have no doubt that it's temperamental, I assure you. I tried a workaround for this myself - a Shapeshifter's Charm which casts Greater Eagle's Splendor, Greater Fox's Cunning, and Greater Owl's Wisdom. Only the Greater Fox's Cunning doesn't work. Your character goes through the motions but the spell is never cast. I've examined the script and spells.2da and can find no problem; I have yet to check the iprp 2da, but if the trouble is not there, it could be in nwn2_inc_spells, x2_inc_spellhook, or AO-only-knows.
Modifié par I_Raps, 13 février 2011 - 08:19 .
#9
Posté 13 février 2011 - 08:44
painofdungeoneternal
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Hes got that stuff working, same idea.
Greater fox's cunning probably does not work, i redid all of those lost spells, they were made for nwn1 and just vestiges in nwn2. You should give a boost that matches what you lose though, or perhaps gives you +12 just to be safe.
Greater fox's cunning probably does not work, i redid all of those lost spells, they were made for nwn1 and just vestiges in nwn2. You should give a boost that matches what you lose though, or perhaps gives you +12 just to be safe.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 13 février 2011 - 08:46 .
#10
Posté 13 février 2011 - 08:58
The Fred
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This is one of my biggest issues, because polymorphing in NWN(2) basically seems to assume that you're chaning to a non-humanoid form. Allowing spells and convos in these forms I can do, if a little kludgily, but items usage seems to be tough luck. As you say, appearance changing can be done, but does come with a whole list of issues of its own. It might be possible to work around the work-arounds, though, it's probably something I'll look into.painofdungeoneternal wrote...
If you do a different sort of shift, ie you change from a human to a kobold, i can see keeping the spells and gear like you are suggesting. But if you shift into a Bear, you should not have access to that backpack anymore, nor the opposable thumb needed to open a scroll and read it.
...
Technically directly changing appearance instead of polymorph is fraught with issues...
painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Equipment is not supposed to be usable, it's gone and becomes what you shift into - otherwise your clothes would end up like the incredible hulks and ripped to shreds, which actually would be a fun feature actually.
This is kind of half of what I am asking. For example, would people like to see a druid whose clothes get ripped off when they change form? Basically, what makes most sense from a reality perspective, obviously balanced with the fact that this would probably make it no fun to play as a game.IE if you are 1st level druid it's a regular polymorph, if it's a alter self you get to keep your items but look like an ogre, if you have natural spell you can keep casting. New forms would be able to use entirely new rules, the old forms should basically work similar to how kaedrin has them.
Thing is, I was thinking about the technical implementations of some of these fixes and things, and it occured to me that I wasn't really sure quite what I actually wanted to do, and that polymorphing is a big mess, full stop. So, what makes most sense when you use wildshape? Should you get the bonuses from your items, etc? The fixes done by Kaedrin's and others look pretty good, and look to make polymorphing half-decent, but I'm wondering whether, for humanoid forms at least, some sort of non-polymorphing option (and appearance change sort of thing) might make the best sense.
Modifié par The Fred, 13 février 2011 - 08:58 .
#11
Posté 13 février 2011 - 09:08
painofdungeoneternal
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The big issue for me is monster abilties. Which i should be able to tackle - and really already am on that tack. I can see you doing it one by one, but i am doing a full dynamic system which can handle new features/feats added which i don't specifically code for. Its really a side effect of dm features i am working on.
The major impediments i have are adding new forms, ie all the forms you had as a shifter in NWN1, setting up blueprints, rules for polymorph.2da, and doing it so it's actually balanced ( blueprint work ). If they have abilities the weaker AC is really balancing, but if not they need boosts. Quite a bit of this dovetails into implementing proper new monsters as well.
The major impediments i have are adding new forms, ie all the forms you had as a shifter in NWN1, setting up blueprints, rules for polymorph.2da, and doing it so it's actually balanced ( blueprint work ). If they have abilities the weaker AC is really balancing, but if not they need boosts. Quite a bit of this dovetails into implementing proper new monsters as well.
#12
Posté 14 février 2011 - 12:04
I_Raps
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Greater fox's cunning probably does not work, i redid all of those lost spells, they were made for nwn1 and just vestiges in nwn2. You should give a boost that matches what you lose though, or perhaps gives you +12 just to be safe.
I got it. The 2da fires nw_s0_grfoxcu.
The actual script name is nw_s0_grfoxscu.
I went ahead and made them all +12 just to be sure.
#13
Posté 14 février 2011 - 12:06
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The Fred wrote...
This is kind of half of what I am asking. For example, would people like to see a druid whose clothes get ripped off when they change form?
Well... the gals, sure!
#14
Posté 14 février 2011 - 05:58
The Fred
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Heh. Seriously, though, would you expect that items are merged into the new form, and if so, what happens to their magical properties? Or, should you have to take off your boots before your feet grow too big? For example, you could make it so that certain items get auto-unequipped when you polymorph (or just don't merge), and probably re-equipped afterwards.
Pain, the abilities stuff you are working on sounds pretty cool. I haven't really delved into the workings of polymorphing in NWN2 but it's probably something I'll look into.
Pain, the abilities stuff you are working on sounds pretty cool. I haven't really delved into the workings of polymorphing in NWN2 but it's probably something I'll look into.
#15
Posté 14 février 2011 - 07:05
MokahTGS
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Actually, I don't see the point to ripping off the druids clothes...realism doesn't have to be there just for realism sake. All that does is add an added step that doesn't make things any more fun, IMO. It's just like adding potty rules to the game. Don't roll a one or you soil your armor...
Modifié par MokahTGS, 14 février 2011 - 07:06 .
#16
Posté 15 février 2011 - 03:34
dunniteowl
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Mokah, it's even worse if you roll good old number 2. :evillol:
And don't forget people, what do you call (as in title) a female Druid? Druid. So that whole clothes removing thing slices both ways. Just remember, though, we're talking magic here, so changing form automatically allows the statement, "Your belongings magically morph into the form as you change shape if it isn't compatible with the new shape." Not elegant, but certainly an out.
dno
And don't forget people, what do you call (as in title) a female Druid? Druid. So that whole clothes removing thing slices both ways. Just remember, though, we're talking magic here, so changing form automatically allows the statement, "Your belongings magically morph into the form as you change shape if it isn't compatible with the new shape." Not elegant, but certainly an out.
dno
#17
Posté 15 février 2011 - 03:58
foil-
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My main pet peeve was the loss of spells.
But... for me druid shapechanging was never about combat. It was about espionage. If non threatening/unreachable animal forms like cats and birds could be treated as non-hostile, and not set off scripts for encounters, I would be happy as a pig in...
I guess if you change into a bear and try to non-chalantly walk into an enemies camp, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
But... for me druid shapechanging was never about combat. It was about espionage. If non threatening/unreachable animal forms like cats and birds could be treated as non-hostile, and not set off scripts for encounters, I would be happy as a pig in...
I guess if you change into a bear and try to non-chalantly walk into an enemies camp, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
#18
Posté 15 février 2011 - 07:18
dunniteowl
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I always thought shapeshifting should be something druids/mages could do for things like sneaking past and reconnoitering too, foil-. In addition, though, I believed that the shapeshifting thing could be a great way to have a 'battle' or contest between two mage/druids to see who is cleverest at using their many different shapes available to best the other. Sort of Magic the Gathering: For Real.
dno
dno
#19
Posté 15 février 2011 - 08:59
I_Raps
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dunniteowl wrote...
I always thought shapeshifting should be something druids/mages could do for things like sneaking past and reconnoitering too, foil-. In addition, though, I believed that the shapeshifting thing could be a great way to have a 'battle' or contest between two mage/druids to see who is cleverest at using their many different shapes available to best the other. Sort of Magic the Gathering: For Real.
dno
Cerridwen & Gwion
by Yvonne Rathbone
©2000
Cerridwen was a Celtic mother goddess. She possessed a magic cauldron named Amen. Her children represented to duality of beauty and ugliness as well as male and female. Her daughter, Creirwy was the most beautiful girl. Avagdu, her son, was the ugliest boy. It made her sad that her son had to suffer the cruelties of others because of his ugliness so she decided to make a potion that would give him inspiration.
Gwion was a young mortal boy in Cerridwen's household. It was his duty to carefully stir the potion which had to brew for a year and a day. One day when the potion was almost done, Cerridwen was out picking herbs. As was his duty, Gwion stood by the cauldron, Amen, and slowly stirred the bubbling potion.
Suddenly, the potion popped and sloshed searing hot drops on Gwion's hand. Out of reflex, the boy brought his hand to his mouth and sucked at the burn. Upon tasting the potion, he was magically able to understand the language of the plants and the animals and to see all things both past and future.
For a few moments he was stunned and amazed at his new abilities. But then he saw how angry Cerridwen would be that he'd tasted the elixir. Knowing that she would surely slay him when she returned, Gwion made good his escape.
He ran into the woods, but Cerridwen already possessed the gift of all-knowing. She saw Gwion's crime and immediately set after him. Just as she was about to grab him, Gwion, having received the power to transform himself from the potion, turned himself into a hare. Cerridwen changed into a greyhound and pursued him still.
Gwion approached a river and immediately transformed himself into a fish, but Cerridwen turned herself into an otter. Again she was about to grab him when he took to the air as a wren. She followed as a hawk. Now Gwion was very tired, so he fell to the earth and became a stalk of wheat in a field. Not one to give up easily, Cerridwen changed into a hen and began to eat the wheat. In the end she found Gwion and devoured him.
Nine months later, she gave birth. Not wanting to care for a mortal, she threw him into the water where he was found by a prince. He grew up to be Taliesin, the greatest bard in his language.
Through this we see that the only way we can truly be creative and speak with the voice of the goddess, is to let her devour us and rebirth us again anew.
http://home.earthlin...les/cergwi.html
Modifié par I_Raps, 15 février 2011 - 09:04 .
#20
Posté 16 février 2011 - 12:59
The Fred
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OK, so actually ripping stuff would be annoying, but the question of whether and which items should be merged still stands - for example, maybe your clothes merge with your new form, but your boots, bracers etc don't.
Fix-wise, making sure spells and things don't get lost seems to be the key; keeping bonuses from items which are merged sounds good too, though I thought this was already implemented? I'll probably take another look at all of Kaedrin's other fixes and things too.
Story-wise, being able to use polymorphing for stealth, espionage, travel, etc. are all good ideas, maybe as an alternative to rogue skills.
Fix-wise, making sure spells and things don't get lost seems to be the key; keeping bonuses from items which are merged sounds good too, though I thought this was already implemented? I'll probably take another look at all of Kaedrin's other fixes and things too.
Story-wise, being able to use polymorphing for stealth, espionage, travel, etc. are all good ideas, maybe as an alternative to rogue skills.
#21
Posté 16 février 2011 - 02:38
painofdungeoneternal
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not really "wildshape", right now it works how it should for the available creatures.
What you are discussing is alter self, and the wildshape's into humanoid creatures. What merges is right now on a per creature basis.
Technically the code kaedrin is using is the most stable, does everything you are talking about except it's not trying to alter the rules, be pretty easy to adapt it to what you are discussing - you'd be ahead on multiple painful issues which are already solved -- remember i can't discuss some issues since not everyone is using that code.
It would be great if you didn't reinvent the wheel, and came up with new shapes, added options for the various shapes we had with the shifter in NWN1.
Later on i will have abilities, and hopefully i can control the AI enough to make a wildshaped creature actually confuse npc's.
Note that i've got quite a few things which you could use as well in the code i am doing, loose collaboration is always welcome. Not talking about a formal team, but more about coordinating projects soas no one has to rebuild everything from the ground up.
What you are discussing is alter self, and the wildshape's into humanoid creatures. What merges is right now on a per creature basis.
Technically the code kaedrin is using is the most stable, does everything you are talking about except it's not trying to alter the rules, be pretty easy to adapt it to what you are discussing - you'd be ahead on multiple painful issues which are already solved -- remember i can't discuss some issues since not everyone is using that code.
It would be great if you didn't reinvent the wheel, and came up with new shapes, added options for the various shapes we had with the shifter in NWN1.
Later on i will have abilities, and hopefully i can control the AI enough to make a wildshaped creature actually confuse npc's.
Note that i've got quite a few things which you could use as well in the code i am doing, loose collaboration is always welcome. Not talking about a formal team, but more about coordinating projects soas no one has to rebuild everything from the ground up.
#22
Posté 16 février 2011 - 10:04
The Fred
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I've been looking at Kaedrin's code and yes, I probably will use bits of it, but I'll have to do some work anyway to implement it because, afaik, there isn't a stand-alone wildshape fix pack which isn't linked in with his PrC pack. Obviously I would like to add the bonus spell fixes and the Sacred Fist one (though I'm not sure atm how it's been done) etc but I don't need all the support for the new classes.
Right now each creature has options for merging armour, left and right weapons; however, whether, say, gloves merge is a design issue. Looking at Kaedrin's notes it seems he adds jewelry and bracer enhancements, and adds options for other items as per PnP.
The difference is that because I'm working on a custom campaign, I'm very happy to change the rules if need be. So, even cutting wildshape completely is note ruled out. What I'm interested to know is how people actually feel about Wildshape (personally I don't much like using it), and it seems that as long as there is some interesting use for it and it doesn't chew up your bonus spells and things, it should stay as it is.
Right now each creature has options for merging armour, left and right weapons; however, whether, say, gloves merge is a design issue. Looking at Kaedrin's notes it seems he adds jewelry and bracer enhancements, and adds options for other items as per PnP.
The difference is that because I'm working on a custom campaign, I'm very happy to change the rules if need be. So, even cutting wildshape completely is note ruled out. What I'm interested to know is how people actually feel about Wildshape (personally I don't much like using it), and it seems that as long as there is some interesting use for it and it doesn't chew up your bonus spells and things, it should stay as it is.
Modifié par The Fred, 16 février 2011 - 10:04 .
#23
Posté 16 février 2011 - 06:52
painofdungeoneternal
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Yeah i agree ... i freely change rules as needed. However i find that i got PNP purists adopting some of my changes i did for a PVP world which is really unexpected.
I'd say wildshape is borked as is, the kaedrin fixes make it usable ( that means fun but not very powerful ), and the big issue with "fixing" it, is the druid just needs no love at all and really needs a nerf stick. They do just fine without it. To fix the core issue we need to move it out of druid into it's own thing - ie shifter type class that gives up druid magic for shifting melee ability. Or perhaps make it more of it's own thing without needing druid at all - perhaps psionic, demonic, or fey based lore. That would allow boosting the forms, perhaps requiring chaotic alignment to destroy the monk synergy ( which requires me lowering the AC of every creature with the assumption they are splashing a monk level. ) Kind of in line with a set of classes i am prepping based on mana ( which is it's own project. )
Ideally the "rules" should be the base - either as it is in the OC or in PNP, and deviations added via options so an end user can play how they want. I think you will find there are hard core PNP purists, and there are those who prefer things being different, this is a big community with preferences all over the map. On your PW you will cater to just one preference, being completely disliked by most in the forum here does not mean you don't have folks who will like what you do, i would say do it how YOU prefer it.
The thing that matters to me is actually having that choice, so a guy who is making a PW can focus on the rules they want, and don't spend 3 months creating a wildshape system - which he planned on taking 2 weeks, but throw in 1 month of debugging due to stupid issues, and then 1-2 months reworking it due to realizing there are major exploits as it was. ( i can honestly say it's a big undertaking since i basically did the above even though quite a bit was coordinated with kaedrins )
Really my main focus is foundation work soas to support others when they start not having to be at ground zero.
If you take a look at my codebase ( on citadel ) you'll notice i put all of the code required into a single include, removed a lot of the duplication of code. It's really mostly kaedrins but i merged in all the work i did previous to kaedrins fixes on organizing it. Might help you "split" it into a separate system easier, and in a way that still allows you to easily use future fixes/features from me or kaedrin.
I'd say wildshape is borked as is, the kaedrin fixes make it usable ( that means fun but not very powerful ), and the big issue with "fixing" it, is the druid just needs no love at all and really needs a nerf stick. They do just fine without it. To fix the core issue we need to move it out of druid into it's own thing - ie shifter type class that gives up druid magic for shifting melee ability. Or perhaps make it more of it's own thing without needing druid at all - perhaps psionic, demonic, or fey based lore. That would allow boosting the forms, perhaps requiring chaotic alignment to destroy the monk synergy ( which requires me lowering the AC of every creature with the assumption they are splashing a monk level. ) Kind of in line with a set of classes i am prepping based on mana ( which is it's own project. )
Ideally the "rules" should be the base - either as it is in the OC or in PNP, and deviations added via options so an end user can play how they want. I think you will find there are hard core PNP purists, and there are those who prefer things being different, this is a big community with preferences all over the map. On your PW you will cater to just one preference, being completely disliked by most in the forum here does not mean you don't have folks who will like what you do, i would say do it how YOU prefer it.
The thing that matters to me is actually having that choice, so a guy who is making a PW can focus on the rules they want, and don't spend 3 months creating a wildshape system - which he planned on taking 2 weeks, but throw in 1 month of debugging due to stupid issues, and then 1-2 months reworking it due to realizing there are major exploits as it was. ( i can honestly say it's a big undertaking since i basically did the above even though quite a bit was coordinated with kaedrins )
Really my main focus is foundation work soas to support others when they start not having to be at ground zero.
If you take a look at my codebase ( on citadel ) you'll notice i put all of the code required into a single include, removed a lot of the duplication of code. It's really mostly kaedrins but i merged in all the work i did previous to kaedrins fixes on organizing it. Might help you "split" it into a separate system easier, and in a way that still allows you to easily use future fixes/features from me or kaedrin.
Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 16 février 2011 - 06:57 .
#24
Posté 16 février 2011 - 07:14
MasterChanger
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I definitely like the idea of shape-shifting (see my user-name? 
) but really don't care for the current system. Even providing static buffs isn't all that interesting. I have always liked the idea of usable abilities with specific forms (rake attacks, for example). I'm also in favor of situational uses for various shapes. If making small animal forms that break factions is too complicated (I can see that being a module-by-module decision) how about giving rats a big bonus to stealth would be interesting. I'd also rather a druid get extra movement speed in wolf form than increased attack power.
Straight-up buffs to attack, damage, etc? I can take them or leave them. Item stacking isn't a bad thing IMO, but it mostly makes a difference in high-magic settings that I don't care for anyway.
That's my 2c.
) but really don't care for the current system. Even providing static buffs isn't all that interesting. I have always liked the idea of usable abilities with specific forms (rake attacks, for example). I'm also in favor of situational uses for various shapes. If making small animal forms that break factions is too complicated (I can see that being a module-by-module decision) how about giving rats a big bonus to stealth would be interesting. I'd also rather a druid get extra movement speed in wolf form than increased attack power.Straight-up buffs to attack, damage, etc? I can take them or leave them. Item stacking isn't a bad thing IMO, but it mostly makes a difference in high-magic settings that I don't care for anyway.
That's my 2c.
#25
Posté 18 février 2011 - 04:38
The Fred
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I'm all for keeping to the PnP rules, but I'm building a campaign set in a very custom setting, meaning that a lot of the D&D-based and even more general things are being cut, and that I'm adding some setting-specific classes etc. So, keeping to the PnP rules strictly is more or less not happening anyway, and I've always been good with "house rules".
This sort of thing is what I want to think about (and would like to get some thoughts from the community on). Druids shouldn't be able to get the bonuses from armour and from monk AC in animal form, but should they be able to keep the enhancement bonus of the armour? After all, the magic of the armour could go into your form, but you are now as unarmed as if you were wearing a robe when you transformed.painofdungeoneternal wrote...
...destroy the monk synergy ( which requires me lowering the AC of every creature with the assumption they are splashing a monk level. )
This is why I even thought about simply cutting wildshaping and even polymorphing of all kinds from the game, full stop. However, it seems from people's responses that there are too many good options for making fun gameplay out of polymorphing to do this; cutting it would be the easy and boring way out, whereas making it useful could be really interesting.painofdungeoneternal wrote...
I'd say wildshape is borked as is, the kaedrin fixes make it usable ( that means fun but not very powerful ), and the big issue with "fixing" it, is the druid just needs no love at all and really needs a nerf stick.
These two things sound good.MasterChanger wrote...
I have always liked the idea of usable abilities with specific forms (rake attacks, for example). I'm also in favor of situational uses for various shapes.
