128 réponses à ce sujet

[SandTrout]

Yet another reason that Joker's disease should have prevented him from being accepted for military service.

[N7 ironman]

Honestly? I just think was to add to the ending scene, it was alot cooler to see joker shooting at the collecters than some random crew member (plus depending on how you handled things they might all be dead anyway).

[SgtPotato]

Guys, he can use his arms and his disease only effect lower part of his body, like his legs.

[leeboi2]

Well they have these things called triggers yeah? And when you squeeze (Not pull, you have to squeeze) These things called bullets come out of the barrel, is that about right?...

[Scimal]

Moronic Fool wrote...

How come Joker could shoot a gun without breaking his bones? Wouldn't the kickback and recoil haave broken them? Even more so with an ASSAULT RIFLE. What do you think?

I think someone doesn't know their physics very well.

Let's start from the beginning. The assault rifles are designed to dampen any kickback you'd experience in the first place. They use everything from magnets and eezo to simple redundant designs involving springs so that most characters don't even show evidence of a kickback while firing.

Since there's no evidence of recoil to begin with since most of the force is absorbed by the mechanisms themselves, there's a small chance to begin with that Joker's bones would shatter.

Now, supposing that there is kickback. Well, since Joker is military-trained, he knows the right way to hold a rifle. The right way alleviates incoming force by making the exit vector of the barrel as much in-plane as it can be with a solid piece of armor or anatomy. It won't break his forearm because his forearm is in the plan, reducing the Force to insignificant amounts.

The shoulder itself doesn't have a lot of bones to break. It's held together by the scapular sling and the deltoid with a series of tendons. The only bones involved are the Clavicle and the Scapula (specifically the Acromion end of the Scapula) and the glenoid capsule that meets the Humerus. Since the capsule is surrounded by dense, irregular, collagenous tissue - it's not going to break. Tendons generally have a tensile strength approaching 2000 Newtons, and the muscles will absorb the majority of the force put back by any recoil.

So if a bullet fired by the rifle exerts 2000 N on the target, that leaves 2000 N going into the gun and Joker. If the gun dissipates 90% of that force through its mechanics, that's 200 N going into joker. If he held it correctly, you could count on about 60% of the remaining 200 N being dissipated by muscle and epidermis tissues.

That leaves 120 N being put into the bones themselves. It's apparent from the Invasion Scene that Joker's spine, ribs, and shoulders can withstand a fall - and guessing that he's about an average 160lbs., that's about 3200 N of force spread out over a significant portion of his body.

If the gun hilt only covered a mere 5% of his torso, he's still be able to absorb 160 N without breaking a single bone.

160 > 120.

Joker's fine until he tries to fire the assault rifle without bracing.


(Also, I tried to be as accurate as I could with only a few bits of research and my memory of Physics - I know there's stuff missing that would alter the calculations [generally for the better, I might add], but I don't see the need to elaborate on them.)

[Haristo]

Kaltrec wrote...

he probably broke a bunch of bones doing that, he just didn't cry about it

that's the answer.

this is also why he can't save shepard if all your squad die.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

SgtPotato wrote...

Guys, he can use his arms and his disease only effect lower part of his body, like his legs.

If that's so, then Jokermancers better beware... his leg bones might not be the only ones that are fractured.

[Weiser_Cain]

SandTrout wrote...

Yet another reason that Joker's disease should have prevented him from being accepted for military service.

That's a good point.
I don't know why he doesn't have a robotic suit to help him get around, I mean those basically exist now.
Also, why didn't they fix this genetically? All soldiers are modified after all.

[didymos1120]

thurmanator692 wrote...
 I wish they'd release ME1 for the PS3, that comic just doesn't cover everything

They can't.  Microsoft has the console rights.

[didymos1120]

mrsph wrote...

A better question is how Joker is able to lift that piece of metal in the bad ending.

That beam also has Vrolik's.  It's hollow.

[jayred vas normandy]

mrsph wrote...

A better question is how Joker is able to lift that piece of metal in the bad ending.

This

[Arijharn]

It's because only Batman has an issue with guns, Joker's quite fine with them really... although he does prefer his gas.

[Praetor Knight]

Joker might have type IV or V of the disease.



Here's some links on Joker's condition:
http://www.netdoctor...rittlebones.htm
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-brittle-bone-disease.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm....alth/PMH0002540
http://medical-dicti.../Vrolik disease


Edit:

Also the wiki states he uses leg braces, so what he does in ME2 is plausible if he has type IV or V of the disease, which is considered severe today, so in ME's time it's plausible that what he does in ME2 is realistic without crutches. 

 http://masseffect.wi..._"Joker"_Moreau

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 13 février 2011 - 04:53 .

[jeweledleah]

from what we're told in game, Joker got some Cerberus upgrades. in ME1, he can only get around on crutches and still needs to be careful. his upper body is fine though, which is why he can pilot, apparently in a future they don't have pedals, only hand controls.



in ME2, he walks on his own. slowly only, but without the use of crutches. I think he might even mention it in a convo somewhere, I've been mostly playing ME1 recently (adjusting to controls back and forth is a bit...annoying even if you remap them to match both games better, so I'm finishing up some saves before moving on), so I cannot remember for sure.

[naledgeborn]

Without delving to deep into the lore, I thought that it was implied that joining Cerberus bought him a few :upgrades". In the first game doesn't he say he has hard enough time going to the bathroom with breaking a bone? Now he's up and moving about, that's also major improvement from ME1.

[Praetor Knight]

naledgeborn wrote...

Without delving to deep into the lore, I thought that it was implied that joining Cerberus bought him a few :upgrades". In the first game doesn't he say he has hard enough time going to the bathroom with breaking a bone? Now he's up and moving about, that's also major improvement from ME1.

But Joker says a lot of things, maybe he was exaggerating cuz he hates dancing?

He does call Feros a colony of mutant zombies 

http://masseffect.wi...Unique_dialogue

[Kaltrec]

Well...what would you call a Thorian creeper if you saw it first

[Praetor Knight]

Kaltrec wrote...

Well...what would you call a Thorian creeper if you saw it first

Target Practice 



Seriously though, when you drop the Geth Ship and reestablish communication, Joker radios that the colonists are trying to claw their way in and does not mention the creepers, so I wonder if Joker even saw one.

[Sajuro]

mrsph wrote...

A better question is how Joker is able to lift that piece of metal in the bad ending.

I assume it is because it is non canon, just is Shepard's dieing dream as he plummets to the bottom of the collector base.

[jackkel dragon]

I agree with the people stating that Joker said only his lower body was affected by the disease in ME1. The arm thing in ME2 may have been an oversight or retcon.



As for the AR wielding, there is the problem that the official site claims that Joker should be curling into a ball of pain from the recoil while the minimal recoil wouldn't affect his arms like the official sites claims. ("The recoil from a rifle can cause fractures, and a fall can easily break bones.") It can still likely be assumed that he was fixed up a bit by Cerberus in ME2, such as his new leg braces, so it wasn't out of the blue that he can use a gun. (The more important question is how he survived the fall after the collector abduction.)

[jackkel dragon]

Sajuro wrote...

mrsph wrote...

A better question is how Joker is able to lift that piece of metal in the bad ending.

I assume it is because it is non canon, just is Shepard's dieing dream as he plummets to the bottom of the collector base.

The easy/lazy answer it that it uses the same cutscene as Shepard with Joker in his/her spot. Otherwise, there's really not much explaination for that scene. I suppose one could argue that it's a light beam of metal, but it's kind of moot when you basically are told "you fail" by Martin Sheen and forced to play a new game.

[Sajuro]

jackkel dragon wrote...

I agree with the people stating that Joker said only his lower body was affected by the disease in ME1. The arm thing in ME2 may have been an oversight or retcon.

-snip-

If you are talking about when he says "What was I supposed to do? Break my arm at them?", I don't think it was either. He probably said that since he is probably the weakest of the crew members and all of the trained soldiers got taken down so the best Joker could do would be to probably break his arm if he tried to hit them (Scions have tough armor)

[didymos1120]

jackkel dragon wrote...

I agree with the people stating that Joker said only his lower body was affected by the disease in ME1.

No, he didn't.  He simply says he has "brittle bone disease" not "brittle leg-bone disease". It's not selective, where some bones are fine and others aren't.  All bones are affected to some degree. He talks about his legs because those are what have caused him the most problems, but he never once says "It's my legs and only my legs, Commander."

[Moronic Fool]

Scimal wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

How come Joker could shoot a gun without breaking his bones? Wouldn't the kickback and recoil haave broken them? Even more so with an ASSAULT RIFLE. What do you think?

I think someone doesn't know their physics very well.

Let's start from the beginning. The assault rifles are designed to dampen any kickback you'd experience in the first place. They use everything from magnets and eezo to simple redundant designs involving springs so that most characters don't even show evidence of a kickback while firing.

Since there's no evidence of recoil to begin with since most of the force is absorbed by the mechanisms themselves, there's a small chance to begin with that Joker's bones would shatter.

Now, supposing that there is kickback. Well, since Joker is military-trained, he knows the right way to hold a rifle. The right way alleviates incoming force by making the exit vector of the barrel as much in-plane as it can be with a solid piece of armor or anatomy. It won't break his forearm because his forearm is in the plan, reducing the Force to insignificant amounts.

The shoulder itself doesn't have a lot of bones to break. It's held together by the scapular sling and the deltoid with a series of tendons. The only bones involved are the Clavicle and the Scapula (specifically the Acromion end of the Scapula) and the glenoid capsule that meets the Humerus. Since the capsule is surrounded by dense, irregular, collagenous tissue - it's not going to break. Tendons generally have a tensile strength approaching 2000 Newtons, and the muscles will absorb the majority of the force put back by any recoil.

So if a bullet fired by the rifle exerts 2000 N on the target, that leaves 2000 N going into the gun and Joker. If the gun dissipates 90% of that force through its mechanics, that's 200 N going into joker. If he held it correctly, you could count on about 60% of the remaining 200 N being dissipated by muscle and epidermis tissues.

That leaves 120 N being put into the bones themselves. It's apparent from the Invasion Scene that Joker's spine, ribs, and shoulders can withstand a fall - and guessing that he's about an average 160lbs., that's about 3200 N of force spread out over a significant portion of his body.

If the gun hilt only covered a mere 5% of his torso, he's still be able to absorb 160 N without breaking a single bone.

160 > 120.

Joker's fine until he tries to fire the assault rifle without bracing.


(Also, I tried to be as accurate as I could with only a few bits of research and my memory of Physics - I know there's stuff missing that would alter the calculations [generally for the better, I might add], but I don't see the need to elaborate on them.)

Do you think everyone here knows physics? <_<