128 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

SgtPotato wrote...

Guys, he can use his arms and his disease only effect lower part of his body, like his legs.

Then how did he "fracture his thumb on the mute"?

[Sajuro]

Moronic Fool wrote...

Scimal wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

How come Joker could shoot a gun without breaking his bones? Wouldn't the kickback and recoil haave broken them? Even more so with an ASSAULT RIFLE. What do you think?

I think someone doesn't know their physics very well.

Let's start from the beginning. The assault rifles are designed to dampen any kickback you'd experience in the first place. They use everything from magnets and eezo to simple redundant designs involving springs so that most characters don't even show evidence of a kickback while firing.

Since there's no evidence of recoil to begin with since most of the force is absorbed by the mechanisms themselves, there's a small chance to begin with that Joker's bones would shatter.

Now, supposing that there is kickback. Well, since Joker is military-trained, he knows the right way to hold a rifle. The right way alleviates incoming force by making the exit vector of the barrel as much in-plane as it can be with a solid piece of armor or anatomy. It won't break his forearm because his forearm is in the plan, reducing the Force to insignificant amounts.

The shoulder itself doesn't have a lot of bones to break. It's held together by the scapular sling and the deltoid with a series of tendons. The only bones involved are the Clavicle and the Scapula (specifically the Acromion end of the Scapula) and the glenoid capsule that meets the Humerus. Since the capsule is surrounded by dense, irregular, collagenous tissue - it's not going to break. Tendons generally have a tensile strength approaching 2000 Newtons, and the muscles will absorb the majority of the force put back by any recoil.

So if a bullet fired by the rifle exerts 2000 N on the target, that leaves 2000 N going into the gun and Joker. If the gun dissipates 90% of that force through its mechanics, that's 200 N going into joker. If he held it correctly, you could count on about 60% of the remaining 200 N being dissipated by muscle and epidermis tissues.

That leaves 120 N being put into the bones themselves. It's apparent from the Invasion Scene that Joker's spine, ribs, and shoulders can withstand a fall - and guessing that he's about an average 160lbs., that's about 3200 N of force spread out over a significant portion of his body.

If the gun hilt only covered a mere 5% of his torso, he's still be able to absorb 160 N without breaking a single bone.

160 > 120.

Joker's fine until he tries to fire the assault rifle without bracing.


(Also, I tried to be as accurate as I could with only a few bits of research and my memory of Physics - I know there's stuff missing that would alter the calculations [generally for the better, I might add], but I don't see the need to elaborate on them.)

Do you think everyone here knows physics? <_<

Not people who particpated in the american educational system. Though physics is a required highschool course so you should be able to grasp the basic concepts.

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

I agree with the people stating that Joker said only his lower body was affected by the disease in ME1.

No, he didn't.  He simply says he has "brittle bone disease" not "brittle leg-bone disease". It's not selective, where some bones are fine and others aren't.  All bones are affected to some degree. He talks about his legs because those are what have caused him the most problems, but he never once says "It's my legs and only my legs, Commander."

He does say:

"Well I don't fly the ship with my legs sir."

So he is kinda saying that his arms won't brake.

[Moronic Fool]

@Sajuro I live in America, and I didn't have to take physics in high school. That's not a requirement.

[Praetor Knight]

Sajuro wrote...

Not people who particpated in the american educational system. Though physics is a required highschool course so you should be able to grasp the basic concepts.

Well, I took Physics in the Midwest, and grasped the basic concepts I hope

[Fixers0]

Cutscene power, just as Thane is Able to knock out an Eclipse Merc with full armor and shields by just punching him.

[Moiaussi]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Maybe Joker got or can still get some cybernetic upgrades like the Skeletal Lattice and Microfiber Weave, but he would still feel pain with any fractures.

This, but it was from TIM when he signed up with Cerberus. It also explains why he now takes TIM's orders over Shepard's when he wasn't like that with Alliance or Council orders.

[Manic Sheep]

didymos1120 wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

I agree with the people stating that Joker said only his lower body was affected by the disease in ME1.

No, he didn't. He simply says he has "brittle bone disease" not "brittle leg-bone disease". It's not selective, where some bones are fine and others aren't. All bones are affected to some degree. He talks about his legs because those are what have caused him the most problems, but he never once says "It's my legs and only my legs, Commander."

In ME1 he only ever talks about it in regards to his legs

Joker: "The bones in my legs never developed properly, they are basically hollow"

Joker: "I was born with over a dozen fractures, hip, thighs, ankles my bones were already breaking in the womb."

Shep:" you’re not going to break a bone flying the ship are you?"
Joker:"uh...I don't fly with my feet commander."

Joker: "They were all got their asses kicked by the sickly kid with creaky little legs"

He makes many many statements about his legs breaking but not once dose he even suggest that the problem is anywhere else. Then along comes ME2 where he seems to be breaking bones all over the place. It seems to be an inconsistency between games.
Of course I’m not even sure you can get localised brittle bone disease. I didn't think you could. Can you? I don’t know anything about it TBH. Perhaps his legs are just the worst off since they would have to carry his weight but its odd he makes such a big deal about his legs but never even mentions anything else.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 13 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...
He does say:

"Well I don't fly the ship with my legs sir."

So he is kinda saying that his arms won't brake.

No, he's more saying "I don't have to worry about fractures due to walking and/or falls while walking because I sit in a chair and push some buttons, dude." 

[didymos1120]

Manic Sheep wrote...

Of course I’m not even sure you can get localised brittle bone disease. Can you? I don’t know anything about it TBH. Perhaps his legs are just the worst off or somthing.

Like I said, no.  It affects bones, period, not just some bones.  Walking is often a problem for people with osteogenesis imperfecta because it puts quite a lot of stress on those bones.  Other bones can and do break, but our legs generally take much more of a beating than our arms.  Also, it's not uncommon for people with the disease to have shorter than normal bones, and sometimes, that is confined solely to the legs.

[Deathwurm]

naledgeborn wrote...

Without delving to deep into the lore, I thought that it was implied that joining Cerberus bought him a few :upgrades". In the first game doesn't he say he has hard enough time going to the bathroom with breaking a bone? Now he's up and moving about, that's also major improvement from ME1.

I was thinking the same thing...
I'm pretty sure Joker does say something about Cerberus helping him out...I just can't remember if it was done or promised to him.

[AkiKishi]

I like easy explanations - Adrenaline.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I wondered about this too.... In that case, he should have pulled Shepard up!

[Rune-Chan]

Fixers0 wrote...

Cutscene power, just as Thane is Able to knock out an Eclipse Merc with full armor and shields by just punching him.

I agree with the armour part, but shields have no effect against punches/kicks/stabs in the ME Lore, in ME1 melee attacks ignored shields and in the books it specifically mentions that they are not designed to deflect anything that slow.

It's only in ME2 with the stupid regenerating health system that they changed it.

[Biotic_Warlock]

He prob found painkillers in chakwas' office.

Or that gun has weakened recoil mods.

[applehug]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I like easy explanations - Adrenaline.

[didymos1120]

Machines Are Us wrote...

It's only in ME2 with the stupid regenerating health system that they changed it.

ME1 had regenerating health as well. The mechanics were different (mainly, there was no delay and the rate was different), but the lore explanation was essentially the same: stuff you installed into armor.  The change to the gameplay mechanics of melee attacks has nothing to do with health regen.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[TheGreyGhost119]

I just try not to over think it. I'll just assume he got some sort of bone weave treatment or something through Cerberus.



Anyone think it would have been cool if Rupert had been shooting the gun at the end (if you saved him, of course)? It kind of would have went with his whole "doing everything along with cooking" schtick.

[Capeo]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Moronic Fool wrote...

In the beginning of ME2, when Shepard grabs him, he says "Ow! Watch the arm!" I thought that meant that his arms were broken too.

Nah, that was just him being whiney. I wish they'd release ME1 for the PS3, that comic just doesn't cover everything

The wiki does though, which is a good source for folks like myself and others who only have a PS3 to catch up on lore.

[CaptainZaysh]

Modern assault rifles don't kick very much when fired, even on full auto (I've done it loads of times). ME era weapons probably kick even less.

[Weiser_Cain]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Modern assault rifles don't kick very much when fired, even on full auto (I've done it loads of times). ME era weapons probably kick even less.

*looks through it's harddrive for picture of people getting smacked in the face by recoiling rifles*

[The7Sins]

It is called Cutscene Power to the Max. Look it up on TVtropes if you don't know what it means.

[Chuvvy]

"I have Vrolik syndrome, brittle bone disease. The bones in my legs are basically hollow, one wrong step and CRACK, very dramatic."

[Kaltrec]

He was just pointing to his legs, because it's the easiest exemple and i doubt he is braking any bones working on holographic commands

[aeetos21]

This was a retcon, a discontinuity between lore in ME1 and lore in ME2. In ME1 only Joker's legs were suffering. It might be argued that the syndrome began affecting the rest of his body in ME2 but that was never addressed. In fact it seems that Cerberus might've helped Joker strengthen his legs given how he could hardly walk at the beginning while the SR1 was being destroyed.



In short in ME3 BW is probably going to give him one or the two or something entirely different and that likely will be accepted as the final ruling on his condition.