To avoid misunderstandings: I am not
looking for other people to tell me what to do, neither do I want
someone else to do all the building work and scripting for me.
Definitely not.
It's just ... sometimes it's helpful to
discuss general building issues or to exchange thoughts and ideas
with other people.
Like: How do you keep yourself motivated?
Sometimes it looks like almost no one is playing NWN 1 single player
mods any more, it's so frustrating …
How do you keep yourself from wanting
too much at once, getting lost in details and so on? My problem is
not a lack of ideas, on the contrary: I get inspired by almost
everything. There's also the problem that sometimes my characters
„get a little too alive“ if you know what I mean. Maybe some of
you know that, too. How do you keep or get your head clear? For me
it's helpful when I am „thinking aloud“ how I call it.
How do you organize your work? After
creating the basic areas and making notes about the main plot – do
you „just work on“ or do you have a system?
What's your opinion about gender / race
/ class / alignment restrictions? On the one hand I really don't like
player restrictions, on the other hand it would save me a lot of
work.
How do you keep things balanced?
Combat, rewards, awarded XP and so on? Sometimes I am just not sure …
I like it when the PC starts with almost nothing and really has to
earn things. You know what I mean, I guess.
There is a mod I would love to create.
As some of the main characters already exist I know what it will be
about, part of it at least. At the moment I just don't know what to
do next. I'm in desperate need of motivation and, maybe, someone who
kicks my a... so that I keep it as small and simple as possible (for
now, at least, you always can add stuff later on) and just don't give
up. It's not my first try ever. All my old stuff got lost some time
ago thanks to a computer crash, though. I also haven't been able to
play NWN or open the toolset for more than two years. Before you ask,
yes: I tried the tutorial mods even though I know the basics of
scripting already, maybe even a bit more than just the basics. I also
know how to add custom content, I am just not good at drawing and for
adding my own music I would need the right software. One of the
tutorials inspired me so much that I decided to take all the stuff I
added and use it for something I created on my own.
As I said, I don't want you to tell me
what to do and how to do it. That I must decide / find out on my own.
Some of it I already know. It's just, well, yeah. The motivation and
sorting things out.
I don't have any connection to the web
during the week, so if you answer to this post and there's no
reaction from me it's just because I wasn't able to read your post
yet.
Hope to read from you soon.
Some general advice / suggestions needed here ...
Débuté par
Aldatariel Calentaur
, févr. 13 2011 04:39
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 14 février 2011 - 12:00
neonscale
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It doesn't matter to me how many people are playing, I just use the toolset to try and tinker and around and sometimes a story will come out of what I place and where and what new things I want to try out. Though you would be shocked to find out how many people would be willing to play a new module, single player or not.
Balance is actually pretty easy for me, as I play the tabletop game, and not much is different between 3.0 and 3.5. I also keep track of encounter and quest XP in a note pad and use the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide to calculate XP progression and how it will work out - with the idea of a 4 player party.
The most important thing to keep in mind is to start from the ground up. Like every good DM, I make things progress with an end goal in mind, but I let the middle fill in itself organically with ideas running through my head. In fact, just now, I'm working on a small dungeon with a storyline similar to Pirates of the Carribean where at the end the PCs will get a reward that will unlock passage to the final dungeon - for no other reason than I thought it would be cool as hell to fight undead pirates.
Another great thing to do, if you have the D&D core rule books for 3.0 or 3,5 is just sit down with graph paper and map out an encounter and play around with ideas that would make for a fun encounter.
The more time you spend out of the toolset thinking about your module, the more ideas you will have when you open your toolset again.
As for keeping track of plots and how they inter play, note pad and pencil on the bus. The module I am currently working on involved a lot of sitting on the bus and writing the story progression down. What seemingly small tasks will the players embark on in the begining, how will it advance the story, is this element a key plot point or will it lead to something on the side, what rewards will the players get that help them on this journey, who are these main characters, what are their motivations, etc etc etc. Basic creative writing stuff, really.
I hope that was helpful.
Balance is actually pretty easy for me, as I play the tabletop game, and not much is different between 3.0 and 3.5. I also keep track of encounter and quest XP in a note pad and use the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide to calculate XP progression and how it will work out - with the idea of a 4 player party.
The most important thing to keep in mind is to start from the ground up. Like every good DM, I make things progress with an end goal in mind, but I let the middle fill in itself organically with ideas running through my head. In fact, just now, I'm working on a small dungeon with a storyline similar to Pirates of the Carribean where at the end the PCs will get a reward that will unlock passage to the final dungeon - for no other reason than I thought it would be cool as hell to fight undead pirates.
Another great thing to do, if you have the D&D core rule books for 3.0 or 3,5 is just sit down with graph paper and map out an encounter and play around with ideas that would make for a fun encounter.
The more time you spend out of the toolset thinking about your module, the more ideas you will have when you open your toolset again.
As for keeping track of plots and how they inter play, note pad and pencil on the bus. The module I am currently working on involved a lot of sitting on the bus and writing the story progression down. What seemingly small tasks will the players embark on in the begining, how will it advance the story, is this element a key plot point or will it lead to something on the side, what rewards will the players get that help them on this journey, who are these main characters, what are their motivations, etc etc etc. Basic creative writing stuff, really.
I hope that was helpful.
#3
Posté 14 février 2011 - 05:13
ffbj
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There's quite a bit there to respond too, but I could offer up my methodology.
I usually lay out the area with an idea in mind, an overall conception of the areas and how they fit together. Currently in Orilion Nights the pw I am working on I have a town at the mouth of The Hither Thither. Since most towns are on rivers that made sense to me. So the river, and it's tributaries runs through most of my areas. In one I have a creek leading to a swampy area, a very common occurence for this type of terrain. Also the region is a peninsula, so it is bounded mostly by oceans to the east and moutains to the the north and west. Next I start working on each area a bit at a time, constantly going back to the areas and tweaking them after playtesting. I try to give each area a charactistic feel, by peopling it with the various denizens that hang out there. The wild areas between the more established or civilized areas have the creatures. Key point is that there is some monster ecology going on. So monsters fit the areas. No giants in the swamps for instance, since they would sink in the muck. So I have the pirates along the coast, bandits along the roads, goblins in the forest that sort of thing.
I keep a notepad with me as I build and makes notes about little fixes: Add map notes, fix this or that, and then the first thing I do before I start working is to refresh my memory by looking over the notes, and applying the appropriate fixes. Above all playtest, playtest, playtest. Also I have some devoted fans which keeps me going. For example one friend thought he would not like my fatigue system, he did in fact like it quite a bit, and offered a number of ideas which I incorporated into that system. So it's good to have fresh eyes look at something you have done.
I usually lay out the area with an idea in mind, an overall conception of the areas and how they fit together. Currently in Orilion Nights the pw I am working on I have a town at the mouth of The Hither Thither. Since most towns are on rivers that made sense to me. So the river, and it's tributaries runs through most of my areas. In one I have a creek leading to a swampy area, a very common occurence for this type of terrain. Also the region is a peninsula, so it is bounded mostly by oceans to the east and moutains to the the north and west. Next I start working on each area a bit at a time, constantly going back to the areas and tweaking them after playtesting. I try to give each area a charactistic feel, by peopling it with the various denizens that hang out there. The wild areas between the more established or civilized areas have the creatures. Key point is that there is some monster ecology going on. So monsters fit the areas. No giants in the swamps for instance, since they would sink in the muck. So I have the pirates along the coast, bandits along the roads, goblins in the forest that sort of thing.
I keep a notepad with me as I build and makes notes about little fixes: Add map notes, fix this or that, and then the first thing I do before I start working is to refresh my memory by looking over the notes, and applying the appropriate fixes. Above all playtest, playtest, playtest. Also I have some devoted fans which keeps me going. For example one friend thought he would not like my fatigue system, he did in fact like it quite a bit, and offered a number of ideas which I incorporated into that system. So it's good to have fresh eyes look at something you have done.
#4
Posté 18 février 2011 - 06:13
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Thank you so much for your answers!
@neonscale: I don't own any 3.0 or 3.5E books, just a whole bookshelf full of AD&D 2E stuff ... I'm not very good at combat tactics, I have to admit ... I am a little too good at puzzles, riddles and how to place traps, though. So you say if the main goal is clear (goals in that special case as it will be up to the PC how it all ends) it is OK to let the in-between just come? I am a very old roleplayer, which means that there have been many good ole PnP D&D sessions, one or two of them I DMed. In the late 90'ies I wrote some PnP adventures for low-level characters. Maybe that could be an advantage as well as a curse: while I am working on the basics, I always think: but a player could try this or that, and if it doesn't work I owe him or her an explanation ... Then there are the NPC's. Sooner or later they come alive, if I am not careful enough, which means: they want to tell their story. What started as a tutorial to find back into the toolset and scripting now has turned into my own dark fantasy story ...
@ffbj: Thank you so much, but ...what you call monster ecology definitely is not the problem. Rats and spiders to the cellars (or crypts), wild animals to the forests, undead to the graveyards and crypts ... and so on. Monsters are not everything, though. There are also the NPC's (two good and three evil ones atm) to interact with. I am taking notes already. Notes are adamant. The problem is, that I always get lost ... See, after my unwanted two-years-break I downloaded several tutorials and just started to build. I ended up with my own story and many ideas for advanced scripts (like: how to let a merchant react if you are trying to sell him (or her) his own stuff). No! Don't help me with that one! I want to figure out myself. Just stop me from going any further.
Thank you again. One request for the future: If I ever should mention more than a minor backstory for my six henchmen, if I ever should mention time-based scripts before having finished the main plot and areas for my mod ... kick me where it hurts most, and kick me hard. ;-)
@neonscale: I don't own any 3.0 or 3.5E books, just a whole bookshelf full of AD&D 2E stuff ... I'm not very good at combat tactics, I have to admit ... I am a little too good at puzzles, riddles and how to place traps, though. So you say if the main goal is clear (goals in that special case as it will be up to the PC how it all ends) it is OK to let the in-between just come? I am a very old roleplayer, which means that there have been many good ole PnP D&D sessions, one or two of them I DMed. In the late 90'ies I wrote some PnP adventures for low-level characters. Maybe that could be an advantage as well as a curse: while I am working on the basics, I always think: but a player could try this or that, and if it doesn't work I owe him or her an explanation ... Then there are the NPC's. Sooner or later they come alive, if I am not careful enough, which means: they want to tell their story. What started as a tutorial to find back into the toolset and scripting now has turned into my own dark fantasy story ...
@ffbj: Thank you so much, but ...what you call monster ecology definitely is not the problem. Rats and spiders to the cellars (or crypts), wild animals to the forests, undead to the graveyards and crypts ... and so on. Monsters are not everything, though. There are also the NPC's (two good and three evil ones atm) to interact with. I am taking notes already. Notes are adamant. The problem is, that I always get lost ... See, after my unwanted two-years-break I downloaded several tutorials and just started to build. I ended up with my own story and many ideas for advanced scripts (like: how to let a merchant react if you are trying to sell him (or her) his own stuff). No! Don't help me with that one! I want to figure out myself. Just stop me from going any further.
Thank you again. One request for the future: If I ever should mention more than a minor backstory for my six henchmen, if I ever should mention time-based scripts before having finished the main plot and areas for my mod ... kick me where it hurts most, and kick me hard. ;-)
#5
Posté 18 février 2011 - 06:49
cyberglum
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One tip. especially when you start feeling a little overwhelmed with your own ideas/stories you wish to tell, is try not to think too BIG!
Its better to focus in on a smaller part of a story you have than try and tell the whole "saga". Perhaps as a prelude, as many people do, or as a first chapter of a longer story. Whatever form it takes, its better to have completed something and have it sitting on the shelf. If you're happy and people enjoyed it, it will add fuel to your creative fire and perhaps you'll press-on and create more. Even if you don't continue your NWN storytelling, at least that idea in your head manifested in some way, even if it was only a small portion of it.
Its better to focus in on a smaller part of a story you have than try and tell the whole "saga". Perhaps as a prelude, as many people do, or as a first chapter of a longer story. Whatever form it takes, its better to have completed something and have it sitting on the shelf. If you're happy and people enjoyed it, it will add fuel to your creative fire and perhaps you'll press-on and create more. Even if you don't continue your NWN storytelling, at least that idea in your head manifested in some way, even if it was only a small portion of it.
#6
Posté 18 février 2011 - 07:39
Karvon
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I think it also depends on a few variables, such as...
- Are you looking doing some that's intended as SP, MP or with a DM?
If you're planning a DM'ed mod, then you don't need, or maybe even want, to script out quests and conversations with NPCs, as the DM can handle such directly and more freely themselves.
- How big, or long, of a story do you want to tell?
It's easy to imagine grand epic tales in bold strokes, but it can take a lot of time to translate that into useable form in a mod. It's often easier to break up such sagas into smaller manageable bites.
- How much time do you have to devote to the project?
The more time you have, the more you can build. The less time you have, the more efficient you need to be with your time and energy, and the more streamlined your story will need to be.
- Do you want something more linear or more open-ended?
The more linear your project the fewer areas you need to prepare and the more details you can lavish on those. If you like free form campaigns, then you may well want to prepare a number of generic areas that can be used for a variety of different situations with a little presession set up of additional placeable and creatures.
- How much eye candy do you want to add to areas in terms of visuals and audio?
It's very very easy to spend hours decorating an area. If you have a lot of time, or few areas, then this sorta love is more affordable. Even so, you may wanna think about how much time the PCs will spend in an area and weigh your decorative time accordingly. It makes a whole lot more sense spending several hours developing a base town or village than the same time on a strip of road thru the woods that will only likely be passed over once.
-Are you doing this alone, or do you have some collaborators to assist you?
While most mod's are done by a single designer, having a one or more folks who are willing and able to lend an hand can make things go a lot faster and easier, particularly if you are lacking technical skills. Partners can lend valuable feedback on your designs and help catch things a lone crafter might easily overlook.
Karvon
- Are you looking doing some that's intended as SP, MP or with a DM?
If you're planning a DM'ed mod, then you don't need, or maybe even want, to script out quests and conversations with NPCs, as the DM can handle such directly and more freely themselves.
- How big, or long, of a story do you want to tell?
It's easy to imagine grand epic tales in bold strokes, but it can take a lot of time to translate that into useable form in a mod. It's often easier to break up such sagas into smaller manageable bites.
- How much time do you have to devote to the project?
The more time you have, the more you can build. The less time you have, the more efficient you need to be with your time and energy, and the more streamlined your story will need to be.
- Do you want something more linear or more open-ended?
The more linear your project the fewer areas you need to prepare and the more details you can lavish on those. If you like free form campaigns, then you may well want to prepare a number of generic areas that can be used for a variety of different situations with a little presession set up of additional placeable and creatures.
- How much eye candy do you want to add to areas in terms of visuals and audio?
It's very very easy to spend hours decorating an area. If you have a lot of time, or few areas, then this sorta love is more affordable. Even so, you may wanna think about how much time the PCs will spend in an area and weigh your decorative time accordingly. It makes a whole lot more sense spending several hours developing a base town or village than the same time on a strip of road thru the woods that will only likely be passed over once.
-Are you doing this alone, or do you have some collaborators to assist you?
While most mod's are done by a single designer, having a one or more folks who are willing and able to lend an hand can make things go a lot faster and easier, particularly if you are lacking technical skills. Partners can lend valuable feedback on your designs and help catch things a lone crafter might easily overlook.
Karvon
#7
Posté 18 février 2011 - 08:10
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Thank you so much, cyberglum!
If I ever create anything, it shall always be detailed without end.
If I ever create anything, it shall always be detailed without end.
#8
Posté 19 février 2011 - 11:38
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Hi, Kavon, saw your post just now.
It will be a single player only adventure with only so many quests as absolutely needed to give the NPC's time to tell their tales and bring the PC to a certain level (to have a chance against the bosses) without giving too many XP away for nothing (no, the PC will have to earn everything). The PC should feel like (s)he can run free, but the quests are more or less linear (the quests in between are the part which is still missing and only exists on my notes sheet). I will need a lot of placeables and sounds in most areas as they either add to a creepy atmosphere or just make sense. On a short road or in a poor but tidy man's house, there won't be many things, of course. Most of the areas I created I can still use, maybe with slight changes (like an additional exit). There are different endings, depending on the PC's actions, I think the best way to handle this would be a dialog similar to the one at the end of HotU (with an entirely different story, of course). I am alone, that's why I try to keep the whole thing as small as possible.
It will be a single player only adventure with only so many quests as absolutely needed to give the NPC's time to tell their tales and bring the PC to a certain level (to have a chance against the bosses) without giving too many XP away for nothing (no, the PC will have to earn everything). The PC should feel like (s)he can run free, but the quests are more or less linear (the quests in between are the part which is still missing and only exists on my notes sheet). I will need a lot of placeables and sounds in most areas as they either add to a creepy atmosphere or just make sense. On a short road or in a poor but tidy man's house, there won't be many things, of course. Most of the areas I created I can still use, maybe with slight changes (like an additional exit). There are different endings, depending on the PC's actions, I think the best way to handle this would be a dialog similar to the one at the end of HotU (with an entirely different story, of course). I am alone, that's why I try to keep the whole thing as small as possible.
#9
Posté 19 février 2011 - 03:11
Karvon
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Something you might consider, instead of building areas which players merely pass thru, add some descriptive narrative and simply jump them to the outskirts of the next scene of the story after having them view those. If you want to get even fancier, you might consider a cutscreen with players moving along a map from point A to point B, or make a short movie file with some voice narrative and music background. Those kinds of things obviously take some time to create, but can add considerable atmosphere in SP mod's particularly.
Karvon
Karvon
#10
Posté 23 février 2011 - 01:17
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Thanks again, Karvon. Of course a cutscene or movie would be better than having the PC walking through a "boring" area. At the moment there are no such areas, not yet ... I can't be sure, though, that I will always be able to avoid "empty spaces" between areas.
#11
Posté 23 février 2011 - 05:37
Karvon
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Well, the point being, "boring" areas may not always be so on a PW server where they might be utilized by DMs during events. However, in a SP/MP mod, you want to obviously minimize such. I've nothing against transitional areas which provide flavor and tell part of the story. Non-stop action area after area, can get a bit draining at times 
Karvon
Karvon
#12
Posté 25 février 2011 - 06:41
olivier leroux
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Aldatariel Calentaur wrote...
Sometimes it looks like almost no one is playing NWN 1 single player
mods any more, it's so frustrating …
I don't think that's true, even if it might look like it sometimes. "The Prophet Chapter 2" by Baldecaran went from freshly released to Hall of Fame module in next to no time, with more than 2000 people downloading it. It's just that given the huge amount of already available modules I think new modules nowadays require a little advertising, convincing players to give YOUR module a try despite all the present alternatives.
Personally, I'm always interested in new SP modules, so if at one time you need a playtester or would appreciate some feedback, don't hesitate to ask.
#13
Posté 26 février 2011 - 11:18
Aldatariel Calentaur
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That's good to know. Thanks, olivier leroux!
#14
Posté 01 mars 2011 - 12:39
redmokah
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How do you keep yourself motivated?
NWN is quite an old game; well past it's prime. Any module developer can attest to the stream of negative thoughts that come their way. One day it's a, "nobody even plays this any more". The next it might be, "i just have too many ideas that aren't going anywhere." But they all converge into the same point, "what's the point?"
I think the answer would be quite clear to any outsider. It's your enjoyment... your passion for creating a new world for others to enjoy that drives you to create a new module. I mean, why else would we create content for NWN rather than NWN2?
I'm developing my module to redevelop my scripting skills and practice my storytelling abilities. I don't know why you're creating your module, but I assume you have a reason other than, "it was raining today and I couldn't go outside."
Remember why you're creating this module in the first place, and you'll easily re-spark that passion.
How do you organize your work?
This question is a bit harder to answer. What works for one person, may not work for another. I think it's important to begin at your core idea; what is your module about?
Plot out the main story, possible branching paths and important characters, scenes, locations, items etc.; but restrict this to content that is essential to the plot.
Maybe you have a cool idea for the PC to run a brothel, but there isn't a core connection to the plot. Put that idea aside and come back to it when you've fleshed out your main content. That way, you can visibly see where it will fit in. This approach is much better than kicking the idea around different parts of the module; trying to force it in somewhere.
It will also help reduce the scope of the project. That enables you to micro-manage smaller segments of your plot without feeling overwhelmed with the big picture.
It's also advisable to keep your focus on one segment of the plot. Divide your module into acts and put all your energy into developing a single act. Jumping around only causes conflicts and completes nothing.
What's your opinion about gender/race/class/alignment restrictions?
If it's vital to your story, then go for it. For example, if you were creating a module that focused on a clan of murderous boars, then an evil alignment would be understandable. Restricting certain quests or segments of the game due is also acceptable as long as it makes sense to the story.
I think restrictions can force players to use classes/races/alignments etc. that they wouldn't normally use. This can be seen as positive or negative, depending on whoever is playing your module.
The point I'm trying to get across is that restrictions are fine if they make sense. If you're just implementing them because you happen to be racist against elves, then it shouldn't affect anything in your module.
Crap. I ran out of time. I'll finish this later.
NWN is quite an old game; well past it's prime. Any module developer can attest to the stream of negative thoughts that come their way. One day it's a, "nobody even plays this any more". The next it might be, "i just have too many ideas that aren't going anywhere." But they all converge into the same point, "what's the point?"
I think the answer would be quite clear to any outsider. It's your enjoyment... your passion for creating a new world for others to enjoy that drives you to create a new module. I mean, why else would we create content for NWN rather than NWN2?
I'm developing my module to redevelop my scripting skills and practice my storytelling abilities. I don't know why you're creating your module, but I assume you have a reason other than, "it was raining today and I couldn't go outside."
Remember why you're creating this module in the first place, and you'll easily re-spark that passion.
How do you organize your work?
This question is a bit harder to answer. What works for one person, may not work for another. I think it's important to begin at your core idea; what is your module about?
Plot out the main story, possible branching paths and important characters, scenes, locations, items etc.; but restrict this to content that is essential to the plot.
Maybe you have a cool idea for the PC to run a brothel, but there isn't a core connection to the plot. Put that idea aside and come back to it when you've fleshed out your main content. That way, you can visibly see where it will fit in. This approach is much better than kicking the idea around different parts of the module; trying to force it in somewhere.
It will also help reduce the scope of the project. That enables you to micro-manage smaller segments of your plot without feeling overwhelmed with the big picture.
It's also advisable to keep your focus on one segment of the plot. Divide your module into acts and put all your energy into developing a single act. Jumping around only causes conflicts and completes nothing.
What's your opinion about gender/race/class/alignment restrictions?
If it's vital to your story, then go for it. For example, if you were creating a module that focused on a clan of murderous boars, then an evil alignment would be understandable. Restricting certain quests or segments of the game due is also acceptable as long as it makes sense to the story.
I think restrictions can force players to use classes/races/alignments etc. that they wouldn't normally use. This can be seen as positive or negative, depending on whoever is playing your module.
The point I'm trying to get across is that restrictions are fine if they make sense. If you're just implementing them because you happen to be racist against elves, then it shouldn't affect anything in your module.
Crap. I ran out of time. I'll finish this later.
Modifié par redmokah, 01 mars 2011 - 12:41 .
#15
Posté 01 mars 2011 - 12:29
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Thank you so much, redmokah! What you wrote was exactly what I needed. Well, almost.
No, I didn't start working with the toolset just because it was raining outside. Of course not. The Aurora toolset caught me from the beginning. You can do so much more with it than with the old DOS game "Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures". From April 2008 until last Christmas I just wasn't able to play NWN or run the toolset.
I never was that good at coding, I always got something between B+ and A- at school (Turbo Pascal and GW Basic, I hate Basic). I tried to teach myself C++ but I failed. To understand pointers and how to use them I would need a teacher ... not just books.
Back to topic. I started that mod as a practice, and then, it just happened: the NPC's and main villains somehow got their own personality. The scope, I want to have it as small as possible, but ...
one the one hand, the PC will need to have level 10+ to face the bosses, on the other hand, it is important that the PC starts at level 1 ...
I just can't wait for the second part of your answer.
No, I didn't start working with the toolset just because it was raining outside. Of course not. The Aurora toolset caught me from the beginning. You can do so much more with it than with the old DOS game "Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures". From April 2008 until last Christmas I just wasn't able to play NWN or run the toolset.
I never was that good at coding, I always got something between B+ and A- at school (Turbo Pascal and GW Basic, I hate Basic). I tried to teach myself C++ but I failed. To understand pointers and how to use them I would need a teacher ... not just books.
Back to topic. I started that mod as a practice, and then, it just happened: the NPC's and main villains somehow got their own personality. The scope, I want to have it as small as possible, but ...
one the one hand, the PC will need to have level 10+ to face the bosses, on the other hand, it is important that the PC starts at level 1 ...
I just can't wait for the second part of your answer.
#16
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 12:55
redmokah
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What's your opinion about gender/race/class/alignment restrictions?
(re-answered because I didn't know I answered it last time haha)
This question is more difficult to answer because it's almost pure subjectivity. Personally, I think restrictions are fine as long as they make sense. If you make a module about an apprentice Wizard, then restricting classes to Wizards, Sorcerers or a multi-class that includes magic users makes sense. However just saying a half-orc can't do a specific quest because...well that's your way of "adding realism" to a module; that's an aspect of restrictions I disagree with. There's no underlying value to the restriction. You'd be doing it just to do it.
How do you keep things balanced?
The only thing you could accurately test for is combat difficulty. You do this by playing through the module with all character/race/gender types, and seeing if the gameplay seems a bit overwhelming.
Everything else will need to be adjusted based on player feedback. There's just no way to accurately test how difficult a module is through the developer's eyes. You know every trick, where to go, how to solve certain puzzles etc.
If you think about your first time through the Neverwinter Nights campaign, I could assume it took you around ten hours get through the first chapter (if you played normally without rushing through). It's not because it was hard; but there was a lot of exploration. As a player, you're emerging yourself into an entirely new world and that's not a quick process. Try the campaign now and you'll blast through the first chapter in two to five hours while getting all the side-missions, alignment points and secret items along the way.
Beta testing is vital and if you don't want the module to go public before it's complete, then ask some friends to test it out; but it's vital you get feedback from a perspective other than yours.
Make the boss easier - Just because the boss isn't at a super high level, doesn't mean he can't be a challenge. You can add specific armour attributes or maybe his armour does a little extra damage. Add a bunch of minions to distract from the boss or force the player to face a sub-boss before the main boss with no possibility to rest in-between.
Defeat by default - Who says he needs to die by physical damage. Think back to old games like Zelda. A lot of bosses forced you to follow patterns before they could be damaged or killed. Perhaps you could script something similar where the PC must shut off three levers before the boss can be hit. Once the levers are shut, the boss can be really easy.
Give your PC more XP - You can give your PC more XP. You don't even have to give them a lot. If the boss is level 12 for example, you could present the PC with the opportunity to level up to level eight or nine. That's still quite a challenge, while still being reasonable.
(re-answered because I didn't know I answered it last time haha)
This question is more difficult to answer because it's almost pure subjectivity. Personally, I think restrictions are fine as long as they make sense. If you make a module about an apprentice Wizard, then restricting classes to Wizards, Sorcerers or a multi-class that includes magic users makes sense. However just saying a half-orc can't do a specific quest because...well that's your way of "adding realism" to a module; that's an aspect of restrictions I disagree with. There's no underlying value to the restriction. You'd be doing it just to do it.
How do you keep things balanced?
The only thing you could accurately test for is combat difficulty. You do this by playing through the module with all character/race/gender types, and seeing if the gameplay seems a bit overwhelming.
Everything else will need to be adjusted based on player feedback. There's just no way to accurately test how difficult a module is through the developer's eyes. You know every trick, where to go, how to solve certain puzzles etc.
If you think about your first time through the Neverwinter Nights campaign, I could assume it took you around ten hours get through the first chapter (if you played normally without rushing through). It's not because it was hard; but there was a lot of exploration. As a player, you're emerging yourself into an entirely new world and that's not a quick process. Try the campaign now and you'll blast through the first chapter in two to five hours while getting all the side-missions, alignment points and secret items along the way.
Beta testing is vital and if you don't want the module to go public before it's complete, then ask some friends to test it out; but it's vital you get feedback from a perspective other than yours.
one the one hand, the PC will need to have level 10+ to face the bosses, on the other hand, it is important that the PC starts at level 1 ...
Make the boss easier - Just because the boss isn't at a super high level, doesn't mean he can't be a challenge. You can add specific armour attributes or maybe his armour does a little extra damage. Add a bunch of minions to distract from the boss or force the player to face a sub-boss before the main boss with no possibility to rest in-between.
Defeat by default - Who says he needs to die by physical damage. Think back to old games like Zelda. A lot of bosses forced you to follow patterns before they could be damaged or killed. Perhaps you could script something similar where the PC must shut off three levers before the boss can be hit. Once the levers are shut, the boss can be really easy.
Give your PC more XP - You can give your PC more XP. You don't even have to give them a lot. If the boss is level 12 for example, you could present the PC with the opportunity to level up to level eight or nine. That's still quite a challenge, while still being reasonable.
#17
Posté 03 mars 2011 - 06:31
Aldatariel Calentaur
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Thank you once more, redmohak!
No, I never really thought about restrictions. If there's no real reason for it (like the example you mentioned) I hate that. In fact I am anti-racist, that's why I am not sure if it's fair if there's more small "extra stuff" for some characters than for others (rangers and druids can talk to animals, there will be one more possible ending for "faithful" characters like clerics and paladins, there also are some extra dialog lines for certain characters, it's easier to shift your alignment towards chaotic than towards lawful and so on ...). I am not sure what to do about this, but then, I should finish the main quests first.
The bosses, yes. Level 10 was just a guess. I forgot that the PC might have a henchman at his / her side. I'll adjust the levels of the two bosses after I have finished the main quests. Should be 10+, though, otherwise it would be ridiculous. The PC will get help with the final fight(s), the kind of help depending on his/her behavior and decisions.
More XP? No. I rather add more side-quests and also some "grinding spots" (I will still have to find out how to script my personal wandering monsters, but I will find a way, of that I am sure. I will think about that later, though. Main quests come first.)
Dividing the mod into several chapters sounds like a great idea, but ... I don't know if that's possible. The whole thing is not that big. I'm just a little too much in love with details and dialog options. Then, things are connected ... the story, the quests. The areas are connected, too (with one exception: the two intro areas). Now I should go back to the toolset and work on my henchmen and main quests. Darned flu, I still can't concentrate properly ...
Thank you so much, all of you. Yes, I should concentrate on the main quests and care about all the optional stuff and details later ...
No, I never really thought about restrictions. If there's no real reason for it (like the example you mentioned) I hate that. In fact I am anti-racist, that's why I am not sure if it's fair if there's more small "extra stuff" for some characters than for others (rangers and druids can talk to animals, there will be one more possible ending for "faithful" characters like clerics and paladins, there also are some extra dialog lines for certain characters, it's easier to shift your alignment towards chaotic than towards lawful and so on ...). I am not sure what to do about this, but then, I should finish the main quests first.
The bosses, yes. Level 10 was just a guess. I forgot that the PC might have a henchman at his / her side. I'll adjust the levels of the two bosses after I have finished the main quests. Should be 10+, though, otherwise it would be ridiculous. The PC will get help with the final fight(s), the kind of help depending on his/her behavior and decisions.
More XP? No. I rather add more side-quests and also some "grinding spots" (I will still have to find out how to script my personal wandering monsters, but I will find a way, of that I am sure. I will think about that later, though. Main quests come first.)
Dividing the mod into several chapters sounds like a great idea, but ... I don't know if that's possible. The whole thing is not that big. I'm just a little too much in love with details and dialog options. Then, things are connected ... the story, the quests. The areas are connected, too (with one exception: the two intro areas). Now I should go back to the toolset and work on my henchmen and main quests. Darned flu, I still can't concentrate properly ...
Thank you so much, all of you. Yes, I should concentrate on the main quests and care about all the optional stuff and details later ...
#18
Posté 27 mars 2011 - 12:53
Rolo Kipp
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<the spectral form of an old wizard flickers weakly into view>
Pardon me. Do you mind if I present an alternative view? Particularly in the area of
"What's your opinion about gender/race/class/alignment restrictions?" and balance. I am very fond of personalizing the RP experience. This means both restrictions and bonuses.
Take your half-orc, for example. If he is restricted from one path, he should have an alternative not available for other races. Upon Amethyst, the Orccen (half-orc) race does not carry the stigma it does in the Forgotten Realms, they are just one of the "Younger Races" (with the hobben & sylven). None-the-less, they have different cultural priorities and resources than the others. Enforcing these restrictions, highlighting the differences in race & class & even gender makes the *choices* made by the PC more important. If you dilute these differences too much, why play a non-human at all? Why play a non-human, non-fighter, non-male character?
In the official campaign this was used rather effectively via the henchman quests (though I was quite annoyed my choice of Daelan made no effect upon the uthgardt encounters). Having radically different quests made sense in game and added a lot of flavor.
To put a different spin on it, how does a gnome wizard feel about finding two dozen uber-greatswords and red dragon full-plate on his adventure? "Um, ok. Guess I can sell it..."
To personalize the experience means you need to bias the adventure (either by hand or through scripting) so that both the adventure and the rewards(/punishment ;-) are pertinent. You've really got to make the world seem to pay attention. And that brings us back to the question of restrictions and balance. Let's see if I can give an example that makes sense.
Kiriel, young druid, needs a focus/weapon. Upon Amethyst, she would enter the forest seeking a certain tree/dryad pair to bargain for a staff. The staff, based upon a standard +1 quarterstaff, will be scripted to grow in power (tracking PC xp gained while equipped) and will learn to be a very powerful druid focus/weapon. But she will be just a plain old +1 quarterstaff to anyone else. That quest (for the staff) and the bonuses gained from it are very much class restricted, but they don't hinder other classes/races/etc. (Side-effect - Kiriel will never need a different *main* focus/weapon - oh how I hate Monty Hall dungeons :-P)
Now to tie into the balance aspect, I'm very enthusiastic about soft-limits and responsive scripts. Soft-limits: The more powerful/unbalancing a thing is, the more opposition comes into play. I almost never *forbid* something. What I do instead is create a limiting or opposing force and let them work it out. Before you ever test its difficulty, you can already put in place soft limits that are softer/stiffer based on the progress (or lack there-of) of the PC. Which brings us to responsive scripts.
Redmokah mentioned testing for combat difficulty. There is another test you can set up; healing needed. Track how much damage your PC is taking. The more damage taken, the better/more powerful the rewards (*pertinent* rewards, where possible). Don't just drop random treasure, tailor it to your PCs progress. If they are getting bogged down (and probably frustrated) give them a breakthrough. If they are breezing through everything, stiffen the resistance (one of my favorite tricks is to steal a bunch of their stuff ;-).
Final note on motivation: Write stories :-) Play PnP as much as you can. I've been working on Amethyst for (sigh) three decades...
Whew. Haven't ranted so long in... a long time :-/
Pardon me.
<the phanatom pops with a sound suspiciously like a burp>
Pardon me. Do you mind if I present an alternative view? Particularly in the area of
"What's your opinion about gender/race/class/alignment restrictions?" and balance. I am very fond of personalizing the RP experience. This means both restrictions and bonuses.
Take your half-orc, for example. If he is restricted from one path, he should have an alternative not available for other races. Upon Amethyst, the Orccen (half-orc) race does not carry the stigma it does in the Forgotten Realms, they are just one of the "Younger Races" (with the hobben & sylven). None-the-less, they have different cultural priorities and resources than the others. Enforcing these restrictions, highlighting the differences in race & class & even gender makes the *choices* made by the PC more important. If you dilute these differences too much, why play a non-human at all? Why play a non-human, non-fighter, non-male character?
In the official campaign this was used rather effectively via the henchman quests (though I was quite annoyed my choice of Daelan made no effect upon the uthgardt encounters). Having radically different quests made sense in game and added a lot of flavor.
To put a different spin on it, how does a gnome wizard feel about finding two dozen uber-greatswords and red dragon full-plate on his adventure? "Um, ok. Guess I can sell it..."
To personalize the experience means you need to bias the adventure (either by hand or through scripting) so that both the adventure and the rewards(/punishment ;-) are pertinent. You've really got to make the world seem to pay attention. And that brings us back to the question of restrictions and balance. Let's see if I can give an example that makes sense.
Kiriel, young druid, needs a focus/weapon. Upon Amethyst, she would enter the forest seeking a certain tree/dryad pair to bargain for a staff. The staff, based upon a standard +1 quarterstaff, will be scripted to grow in power (tracking PC xp gained while equipped) and will learn to be a very powerful druid focus/weapon. But she will be just a plain old +1 quarterstaff to anyone else. That quest (for the staff) and the bonuses gained from it are very much class restricted, but they don't hinder other classes/races/etc. (Side-effect - Kiriel will never need a different *main* focus/weapon - oh how I hate Monty Hall dungeons :-P)
Now to tie into the balance aspect, I'm very enthusiastic about soft-limits and responsive scripts. Soft-limits: The more powerful/unbalancing a thing is, the more opposition comes into play. I almost never *forbid* something. What I do instead is create a limiting or opposing force and let them work it out. Before you ever test its difficulty, you can already put in place soft limits that are softer/stiffer based on the progress (or lack there-of) of the PC. Which brings us to responsive scripts.
Redmokah mentioned testing for combat difficulty. There is another test you can set up; healing needed. Track how much damage your PC is taking. The more damage taken, the better/more powerful the rewards (*pertinent* rewards, where possible). Don't just drop random treasure, tailor it to your PCs progress. If they are getting bogged down (and probably frustrated) give them a breakthrough. If they are breezing through everything, stiffen the resistance (one of my favorite tricks is to steal a bunch of their stuff ;-).
Final note on motivation: Write stories :-) Play PnP as much as you can. I've been working on Amethyst for (sigh) three decades...
Whew. Haven't ranted so long in... a long time :-/
Pardon me.
<the phanatom pops with a sound suspiciously like a burp>
Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 27 mars 2011 - 01:04 .
#19
Posté 14 avril 2011 - 01:55
Aldatariel Calentaur
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A late thanks to you, dear Rolo! :hug: :kiss on the cheek:
Yes, you are right: for true role playing, everything should matter: the race of the character, the class, alignment, his/her behavior, maybe even the faith, sub race ... now you understand why I am unable to finish a real module. For now.
In the meantime, I decided to create my personal practice mod first, "Adventurer's Academy".
I might upload it when it's finished (depends on if I get everything to work as it should... I still have to figure out how to time gestalt cut scenes properly for example).
My humble thanks to everyone who answered!
Yes, you are right: for true role playing, everything should matter: the race of the character, the class, alignment, his/her behavior, maybe even the faith, sub race ... now you understand why I am unable to finish a real module. For now.
In the meantime, I decided to create my personal practice mod first, "Adventurer's Academy".
I might upload it when it's finished (depends on if I get everything to work as it should... I still have to figure out how to time gestalt cut scenes properly for example).
My humble thanks to everyone who answered!
#20
Posté 20 juillet 2011 - 10:55
Rolo Kipp
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<looks vaguely startled>
You are always welcome!
And, meanwhile, I shall work - in fits and starts - on my "hammurabi-style" druid sim ("Forrestal") and my epic (-ly long time in development) level 1 through 15 long-lost-heir-to-fixer-upper-castle mod "Trollsbane"...
It's good to have goals, eh? :-)
<dissolves back toward the clooud-shrouded peak of Needlespire>
You are always welcome!
And, meanwhile, I shall work - in fits and starts - on my "hammurabi-style" druid sim ("Forrestal") and my epic (-ly long time in development) level 1 through 15 long-lost-heir-to-fixer-upper-castle mod "Trollsbane"...
It's good to have goals, eh? :-)
<dissolves back toward the clooud-shrouded peak of Needlespire>
