256 réponses à ce sujet

[Abispa]

Romance is one area of RPG (and video games in general) that is still being perfected. It challenges the skills of the writers and actors to create ones due to social taboos, fetishes, sexual persuasions, and demands for believability or fantasy. It is something that is fascinating to watch game developers wrestle with to various degrees of success.



I sometimes find myself wondering about the frame of mind of the developers making the games and why they came to the choices they did in depicting romances. Why are gay sex choices so limited in the ME series when other Bioware games seemed to be more supportive? Why were characters allowed to have sex in the nude in the first game, yet were dry humping in the second? Is it political pressure? EA making Bioware timid?



And yes, reading the forums makes me wonder about the frame of mind of many of the players as well. Why the hell would anyone find Jack attractive? Why are some players willing to accept their Shepard having sex with someone of another species, but not the same gender even when the romantic partner is human?

[Girl in the Box]

For alot of the same reasons I like an element of romance in most novels I read - it adds depth and emotion to the story. plus, I'm a role playing romantic at heart. <3 and happily married to boot!

[slimgrin]

Saibh wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

He may not have worded that well, but I think there is a kernal of truth to it. From my observation, female gamers place greater emphasis on romance in RPG's.

I think women are more open about it, but, like I said earlier, men care about it a lot. Morrigan ("WHERE IS MY MORRIKINS") and Liara ("WHERE ARE MY BLUE BABIES") and Tali ("BUILD HOME") should be a good indication of that. The live chat Friday was reeking of people asking where's Morrigan, will we see Morrigan, is Morrigan coming back, will Morrigan be with the Warden, and on and on.

I think guys care just as much. I think they like to pretend they don't.

So you're saying....I didn't fool anyone. 

[Saibh]

Abispa wrote...

Why are gay sex choices so limited in the ME series when other Bioware games seemed to be more supportive?

Different teams. Why specifically, is only theories.

Why were characters allowed to have sex in the nude in the first game, yet were dry humping in the second? Is it political pressure? EA making Bioware timid?

Maybe they decided that sex scenes didn't add anything to the romance. After all, I really doubt they think that their sales suffered. ME is an M rated game. Their market is not the "their mother buys the player the game" crowd.

Why the hell would anyone find Jack attractive?

I think Jack has the prettiest face short of Samara in any of the ME games. Maybe they find her voice attractive. Maybe they like tattoos. Maybe they like her personality.

Why are some players willing to accept their Shepard having sex with someone of another species, but not the same gender even when the romantic partner is human?

First of all, there are no aliens in real life to be able to accurately judge if people would be attracted to them. Thane and Garrus are male. They are not real, but they are male. If you are a gay man, or a straight woman, that's the gender you're attracted to.

[Yodefet]

As far as Jack goes, it's not that hard to believe that someone would be physically attracted to someone like that (in real life). Sure, it might not be "common", but some people are really into tattoos. Obviously, there are people out there that are into body modification of varying degrees, so surely the idea of someone liking a woman covered in tattoos isn't so strange, hm?



I'm not really a fan of Jack, personally, but it's not that odd to me that other people are.

[David Gaider]

Saibh wrote...
Different teams. Why specifically, is only theories.

Different teams also means different interests. There's very few things we feel compelled we have to put into a game-- it requires someone on the team to be actively interested in including it. I know, on the forums, it seems like everyone thinks a developer needs a solid reason not to put something in a game... were content not expensive, that would be true. But it isn't, and while we would never expect fans to care about that, we certainly have to. So therefore you're only going to see things that individuals on that team are specifically interested in doign... and you're not going to see a lot of other things we'd like to include but just couldn't. We don't get our way all the time, either.

[Saibh]

David Gaider wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Different teams. Why specifically, is only theories.

Different teams also means different interests. There's very few things we feel compelled we have to put into a game-- it requires someone on the team to be actively interested in including it. I know, on the forums, it seems like everyone thinks a developer needs a solid reason not to put something in a game... were content not expensive, that would be true. But it isn't, and while we would never expect fans to care about that, we certainly have to. So therefore you're only going to see things that individuals on that team are specifically interested in doign... and you're not going to see a lot of other things we'd like to include but just couldn't. We don't get our way all the time, either.

You deprived me of my delicious Old Tegrin romance and I know you did it on purpose.

[snackrat]

For the narrowminded people yelling stereotype about my post on page 6, I MYSELF AM FEMALE. It is stereotypical of you to assume I am being sterotypical, especially since I deliberately used words like MOST, MANY, and stated that there are others that do not fit the mould. :innocent:

I am NOT saying that the guys DON'T LIKE IT, I am saying it has a MAJOR APPEAL for the romanctics among us - the MAJORITY OF WHICH is female.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 février 2011 - 07:03 .

[Saibh]

Karsciyin wrote...

For the narrowminded people yelling stereotype about my post on page 6, I MYSELF AM FEMALE. It is stereotypical of you to assume I am being sterotypical. :innocent:

I am NOT saying that the guys DON'T LIKE IT, I am saying it has a MAJOR APPEAL for the romanctics among us - the MAJORITY OF WHICH is female.

One of my favorite fallacies--to assume that, because you are a part of a demographic, you are exempt from stereotyping said demographic.

So, yeah, you're being really stereotypical. So what if you're female? You're not the authority on our gender.

Modifié par Saibh, 14 février 2011 - 07:08 .

[Threeparts]

scyphozoa wrote...

Saibh wrote...
You deprived me of my delicious Old Tegrin romance and I know you did it on purpose.

Thats Tegrin's secret, he's always been waiting for the warden to make the first move. 

So that's why he was stalking me? 

[snackrat]

People were talking about 'he', so i thought I'd clear that up. Now, let's go over my post and try and figure out exactly where I was following a sexist stereotype that has absolutely no ground in fact that I should be flamed for:

...it appeals to female gamers ...so females don't like the romances then..? Interesting statement. Have you gone in a romance thread as of late? Hmm. (Personally I like the romances too, although I've had play-throughs without them, esp in Mass Effect 1/2)

(though nothing stopping males enjoying it too, of course.) How DARE I include males in this, and allow for the fact that not everyone fits into a box. Clearly men are NEVER to enjoy romances.

You know, like how romantic comedies are popular among women. Yep, now that you mention it, all of my female flatmates watched and enjoyed the Saw series and they love those superhero blockbusters, but all my guy-friends are constantly talking about "Love Actually" and "Valentine's Day". I SHOULD HAVE SEEN THIS SOONER.

Or at least more so than among men. Oh, here we go again, me acknowledging that not EVERY woman loves romantic comedies (I don't), and that some men DO like them. HOW DARE I BE SO PRESUMPTUOUS.

Personally I have no idea what the hell everyone's problem is, but don't try to pretend that romances aren't a major influence in that. Though not necessarily THE major one of course - many merely appreciate being able to play as a female character, especially one they create themselves, instead of being forced to play as a generic male protagonist. ESPECIALLY if that protagonist performs actions that are worth at least an raised eyebrow. I'm sure you can think of a few examples there.

Maybe this is just forums for you, but it seems like some people LOOK FOR REASONS to be offended. Psh.


...also I shall add something else - yes, I know that many men are quite the romantics. Most of them, in fact, despite the sterotype of them all being like rabbits looking for next bonk with no emotional attachment. The difference is that they don't normally express this as freely, and when it comes to marketing a lot of it is about what people are willing to do or admit. Men are allowed to enjoy the romances. There ARE dating sims aimed at men (or gay women, at least) out there, though they are no paticularly popular (and are mostly Japanese at that). Pokemon is enjoyed by adults too, but they're still aimed at children with child protagonists and many adults admit feeling self-concious lining up for the releases of some of the newer generations.

YES, THE MALES ENJOY THE ROMANCES.

TALI. MORRIGAN. LELIANA. They all have their appeal. I am not so blind as to assume they do not. (Though keep in mind there are females in those threads too! I love Tali and Morrigan.)

The question is about BIOWARE, their game design, and the MARKETING that would be involved, so THAT is what I am addressing.
If anyone was offended by my poor choice of words, I'm sorry for that, but I'm not going to retract my opinon somply because not everyone agrees.
 

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 février 2011 - 07:39 .

[Addai]

The threads about female LIs are just as populated as those about the male. The Morrigan and Leliana contingents are both really devoted. And then there's Tali.



To the OP's question, it's because romance makes for a good story. Even your cheesy summer action movies have a romance story line in them.

[KawaiiKatie]

David Gaider wrote...

Different teams also means different interests. There's very few things we feel compelled we have to put into a game-- it requires someone on the team to be actively interested in including it. I know, on the forums, it seems like everyone thinks a developer needs a solid reason not to put something in a game... were content not expensive, that would be true. But it isn't, and while we would never expect fans to care about that, we certainly have to. So therefore you're only going to see things that individuals on that team are specifically interested in doign... and you're not going to see a lot of other things we'd like to include but just couldn't. We don't get our way all the time, either.

Reading that actually makes me really, really happy, because it tells me that everything actually in the game is golden. Yes, a lot of stuff that fell away might have been really good, but everythign that made the cut must have made the cut for a reason--and that reason, hopefully, is that it was better than the great stuff that fell away.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Karsciyin wrote...

You know, like how romantic comedies are popular among women.

Maybe romantic comedies are popular with women because they're targeted to women exclusively and one of the only genres that allow women to be the lead character. Studios force female writers and female directors to make 'movies for women', which they fit into a tiny, pretty package with a Katherine Heigl bow. If women could be action heroes, more women would probably watch action movies.

Studio executives believe women won't watch action movies so they make action movies to appeal to men and romance movies to appeal to women and spend all of their advertising dollars segregating the genders into the easy to label categories so they can best figure out how to make money.

[SnakeHelah]

Well, it does hook you up "emotionally" more to the story. Someone mentioned that, people who do romances in the game, can't achieve that in "real life". Well sorry, but I kinda can't find a shapeshifting mage, an elf, or a bard in real life can I? That's just an invalid argument, sure there will be people who will pursue romances for something like that but that's totally not the majority. There's also this thing, in movies, books, there are also romances? and they are oh so very popular. If someone likes them, does that make them one who can't achieve something like that in real life too? I mean sure, in games you can interact with everything, but that's the point really. It's the same as a movie only YOU decide everything, so you could say it's a movie about YOUR character, and what he did etc. That does not make romances likeable by people who can't pursue them in RL. It's just bs.

The stereotype about women liking them a lot. Sure, I mean look at romances which aren't in games. Twilight? "Squee". The thing is, men enjoy romances too, there's nothing wrong about it, however not as much as women.

[HolyAvenger]

Addai67 wrote...

The threads about female LIs are just as populated as those about the male. The Morrigan and Leliana contingents are both really devoted.

They're populated, but not as populated. I don't think its too much of a stretch to say the most female players are more into the romances in the game more than most male players. That's not say both genders don't enjoy them of course.

[snackrat]

There are shows with women heroines. Salt for example, and Aeonflux (I LOVED Aeonflux). It's nice to see the boundaries being broken down - I love actions movies. Personally I care little about the gender of the protagonist, but I can understand people find it difficult to identify with those of another gender... that is their prerogative.

True enough about most romances being aimed at women, but several (including the 'Valentine's Day' I mentioned) are aimed at both - they have stories from the women's points of view, and from the men's points of view - entirely different pair ups all tangled over each other.

But truly, romances aimed at men are few and far between. Because honestly - though men of course would enjoy these things, how many of them are willing to admit it? That does seem a shame though... there is a niche to be filled there. Maybe none went into the cinemas, but surely there could be a DVD one out there or.. or SOMETHING.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[Collider]

I think the more important thing is whether the general player base cares about romances.

[LPPrince]

Karsciyin wrote...

There are shoes with women heroines. Salt for example, and Aeonflux (I LOVED Aeonflux). It's nice to see the boundaries being broken down - I love actions movies. Personally I care little about the gender of the protagonist, but I can understand people find it difficult to identify with those of another gender... that is their prerogative.

True enough about most romances being aimed at women, but several (including the 'Valentine's Day' I mentioned) are aimed at both - they have stories from the women's points of view, and from the men's points of view - entirely different pair ups all tangled over each other.

But truly, romances aimed at men are few and far between. Because honestly - though men of course would enjoy these things, how many of them are willing to admit it?

Mmkay Leliana.

Modifié par LPPrince, 14 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[Erinpedz]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

You know, like how romantic comedies are popular among women.

Maybe romantic comedies are popular with women because they're targeted to women exclusively and one of the only genres that allow women to be the lead character. Studios force female writers and female directors to make 'movies for women', which they fit into a tiny, pretty package with a Katherine Heigl bow. If women could be action heroes, more women would probably watch action movies.

Studio executives believe women won't watch action movies so they make action movies to appeal to men and romance movies to appeal to women and spend all of their advertising dollars segregating the genders into the easy to label categories so they can best figure out how to make money.

Ugh  i avoid  chick flicks with a ten foot pole..  think  the lastest dvd I brought was the expendables...  so yes i like the romance in my games.. but only if they add to the story or way I'm playing my charrie.. not if they exist for the sheer heck of it.

Modifié par Erinpedz, 14 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[snackrat]

LPPrince wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

There are shoes with women heroines.

Mmkay Leliana.

Oh wow.  I always do that - my typoes are so bad they spell entirely different words, especialyw hen I type this fast with the lights off. If I don't get the ^^^^^^^ under it, I don't even notice,

fixed.

Modifié par Karsciyin, 14 février 2011 - 07:27 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Karsciyin wrote...

Because honestly - though men of course would enjoy these things, how many of them are willing to admit it?

Exactly.

Which is why stereotypes are a bad thing, they reinforce the idea that men shouldn't watch 'girl' things.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 14 février 2011 - 07:29 .

[LPPrince]

Karsciyin wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Karsciyin wrote...

There are shoes with women heroines.

Mmkay Leliana.

Oh wow.  I always do that - my typoes are so bad they spell entirely different words, especialyw hen I type this fast with the lights off. If I don't get the ^^^^^^^ under it, I don't even notice,

fixed.

Freudian slip. Better some times to just leave them in for the lulz.

Unless you're a game developer. In which case your paycheck says otherwise.

[Saibh]

Karsciyin wrote...

People were talking about 'he',

tl;dr

To sum up: You put an emphasis on women over men. Men enjoy it just as much. To blanket womens' preferences like that is stereotypical.