502 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

Dean, the problem you fail to address is the sheer cost and time to build on the Normandy. You don't just squat and grunt out warships to order. It takes something like a year or more to build a warship and the facilities to do so are not easy to hide. The idea that Cerberus is going to have enough to take on the Turian Fleet is ludicrous.



If Cerberus were true freedom fighters then where have the been when the lesser races needed them? Does anyone here really consider the Elcor, Volus, Hanar, Krogan or Quarians as a threat to humanity today? Are they oppressing humans? Cerberus/your complaints all come back top the Council and the three races who sit on that Council. Yet you're "Freedom Fighters", really? Then do something about the lack of representation for the other races. Fight for them. Ahh, I see you really aren't "Freedom Fighters", just like any religious extremist of the 21st century, your freedom only counts for your sect. No one else is deserving of freedom, just your people.



From what I can tell in the Renegade version Humanity are the oppressors, take over the Council. Asari, Turians, Salarians are referred to as former Council races.



In the Paragon version, the Council doesn't act but at the same time the Turians are granting additional concessions to Humanity and the Council is aboard the Destiny Ascension on a Victory cruise where they are thanking Humanity for their sacrifice. BTW, that is why you only meet them by holo. They're not on the Citadel, they're somewhere in Alliance space thanking the people who saved them.



Bringing up the "a number of concessions in the past" is somewhat pointless. This is now and things are considerably different. In the past Humans were Johnnie come lately, newest race on the Galactic scene. Today they are a member of the Council and one of the 2 most powerful militaries in space. Turians and Humans have the largest fleets. The STG are spec ops, the Asari ground teams are the same and their fleets are mostly made up of smaller ships, not dreadnoughts.



We have very little knowledge of what part biotics will play but the Reapers were pretty hot after that information in Retribution. Just because we think it will be a battle fought by fleets doesn't mean we're right. I suspect that biotics pose a greater threat to the Reapers than we've been shown so far. Especially after Reaper-Grayson went to all that effort to go after the info. To think otherwise would be a colossal intelligence failure. Put it this way, if the biotics are the key and the Reapers gather them up we won't have them when we need them. If they kill them all we won't have then either.



I just had a thought, there is still considerable mistrust of biotics among humanity. Perhaps this war will finally break that barrier of mistrust down and they will be hailed as protectors of sentient life. Does anyone else see the B5 influences here?

[Bailyn242]

Tennessee88 wrote...

All I have to say is that I am glad that the Alliance or the wonderful council ever did anything to stop the collectors. Tens of Thousands, if not millions are safe because of Cerberus.

Only because of Shepard and his team and they are not Cerberus. In fact his/her team consists of more people who hate Cerberus than people who trust Cerberus.

BTW, people have said that reviving Shepard is their sole redeeming act. That isn't under dispute but saving one child means nothing if you have already murdered and tortured thousands along the way.

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Cerberus are terrorist who should be removed from the Galaxy as they are doing more bad then good things. Anderson is a War hero, and not a traitor, He did was best, He saw Cerberus as terrorists and a danger to Alliance/Human citizens.

Cerberus are freedom fighters, who should be supported as they are doing what needs to be done to liberate the Galaxy from the decadent and oppressive alien regimes. Anderson is an Alliance poster boy, but in reality a drunkard ready to betray the Alliance over a whim of a woman he is in love with.

No Cerberus are criminals, who should be stopped at all cost as they don't care about other species or the average joe and are just trying to archive their insane ideals, Anderson is a man of intergerity, a man who still holds on onto the basic priniciples and who is trying to make the galaxy a better place for everyone.  

No, Cerberus are idealists, who should prevail against all odds, as they are the only group that dares to take a look into the future, and is capable of giving an adequate purpose for all species in the Galaxy, as well as to every average Joe among our own species. Anderson is a retrograde, who hasn't got even a remotely coherent worldview and is likely to act on impulse just as much as on any kind of outdated preconception.

No, Cerberus are criminals who havve commited severe criminal acts agaist the Alliance and the other Citadel races, They have no morals, and only care to complete their own goals which is to become dominats, their leaders is a coward who hides his real name and doesn't responisbility for the actions his organisation made, for them humans are superior to other races, which is racism, Anderson on other hand follows his principals and has a strict code and he cares for the good of the galaxy.

No, Cerberus are heroes, who have the courage to disregard and rebel against the discriminative Citadel laws, and lead the Mankind to its destiny, as opposed to succumbing to the aliens indulging in ignorant and pointless existence. Their leader is an outstanding selfless individual, who rejected all petty amenities of normal life and even his own name, and fully devoted himself to a greater cause. Anderson is a careless idiot, who thinks that risking an interstellar war when the Reapers are already on their way is good for the Galaxy.

No, Cerberus are terorrists,  who has the blood of many Alliance citiziens/Marines and Childeren on their hands and, who lead humanity into its doom by having no regard for other species, as oppsed to the Aliens who are willing to accept humanity by giving them a seat on the council as humanity contiues to contribute to the Galactic community, The leader of Cerberus is a selfish terrorist and a coward who hasen't achieved anything by himself and contiues to manipulate other people while only careng about his own agenda, David Edward Anderson is a Example for Humanity, who doesn't resort to terrorism and racism to win from the Reapers.

I think this has gone too far, We are just endlessly posting our opinion again and again, i think i have made my point clear.
Cerberus = Terrorist Organisation
TIM = Coward and a Terrorist.
Anderson = Warhero and exemplar.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Dean, the problem you fail to address is the sheer cost and time to build on the Normandy. You don't just squat and grunt out warships to order. It takes something like a year or more to build a warship and the facilities to do so are not easy to hide. The idea that Cerberus is going to have enough to take on the Turian Fleet is ludicrous.

Not in the Mass Effect universe, where besides technology changes we also have a continuous narrative disregard for logistics as anything but a plot device.

Cerberus doesn't need to take on the entire Turianfleet, so the scenario is a bit confusing. Cost is a limiting factor, but not a preventing factor: the Lazarus project was depicted as a far more significant cost, and yet the Lazarus and Normandy cost were a slowdown, not a bankruptcy, for Cerberus.

If Cerberus were true freedom fighters then where have the been when the lesser races needed them?

Strawman fallacy. That's not my position.

Does anyone here really consider the Elcor, Volus, Hanar, Krogan or Quarians as a threat to humanity today? Are they oppressing humans? Cerberus/your complaints all come back top the Council and the three races who sit on that Council. Yet you're "Freedom Fighters", really? Then do something about the lack of representation for the other races. Fight for them. Ahh, I see you really aren't "Freedom Fighters", just like any religious extremist of the 21st century, your freedom only counts for your sect. No one else is deserving of freedom, just your people.

And here's the scotsman fallacy.

An advocacy group doesn't have to advocate for everyone on every to be a real advocacy group. And since nearly all advocacy comes at the cost of someone else's priorities, 'for your own group' is a meaningless inherency.

From what I can tell in the Renegade version Humanity are the oppressors, take over the Council. Asari, Turians, Salarians are referred to as former Council races.

Minus meaningful oppression.

In the Paragon version, the Council doesn't act but at the same time the Turians are granting additional concessions to Humanity and the Council is aboard the Destiny Ascension on a Victory cruise where they are thanking Humanity for their sacrifice. BTW, that is why you only meet them by holo. They're not on the Citadel, they're somewhere in Alliance space thanking the people who saved them.

Nothing in the game suggests the Council is on the Destiny Ascension's victory cruise. The only reason the Council was ever on the Destiny Ascension in the first place was to escape the Citadel.

The primary difference, politics wise, is that in the Paragon version Humanity gets some concessions (but not everything it wants) from a position of weakness, while a Renegade council can wrest more concessions about galactic policy from a position of strength.

Bringing up the "a number of concessions in the past" is somewhat pointless. This is now and things are considerably different. In the past Humans were Johnnie come lately, newest race on the Galactic scene. Today they are a member of the Council and one of the 2 most powerful militaries in space. Turians and Humans have the largest fleets. The STG are spec ops, the Asari ground teams are the same and their fleets are mostly made up of smaller ships, not dreadnoughts.

Since those concessions still continue, they remain relevant. Council status has boosted it's ability to defend its interests, but Humanity is still bound on a number of aspects.

We have very little knowledge of what part biotics will play but the Reapers were pretty hot after that information in Retribution. Just because we think it will be a battle fought by fleets doesn't mean we're right. I suspect that biotics pose a greater threat to the Reapers than we've been shown so far. Especially after Reaper-Grayson went to all that effort to go after the info. To think otherwise would be a colossal intelligence failure. Put it this way, if the biotics are the key and the Reapers gather them up we won't have them when we need them. If they kill them all we won't have then either.

The Reapers can't kill all the biotics without having the ability to break the fleet defenses protecting the Alliance. By the time they can break our fleets, our biotics aren't going to trump the fleets: even the most biotics are not more powerful than dreadnaughts and Thannixes. Biotics aren't the force: their power isn't unlimited, nor do they surpass the scale of warships ME tech.

Nor are Humans even the most powerful (or even plentiful) biotics in the galaxy.

Besides all which, the Ascension Project is a civilian biotic project, not a military project. If you want the Alliance's military biotic program information, the sort that would actually be used in the military conflict, the Ascension project only gives civilian data of the same time period. Not the military secrets.

I just had a thought, there is still considerable mistrust of biotics among humanity. Perhaps this war will finally break that barrier of mistrust down and they will be hailed as protectors of sentient life. Does anyone else see the B5 influences here?

No.

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Dean, the problem you fail to address is the sheer cost and time to build on the Normandy. You don't just squat and grunt out warships to order. It takes something like a year or more to build a warship and the facilities to do so are not easy to hide. The idea that Cerberus is going to have enough to take on the Turian Fleet is ludicrous.

Not in the Mass Effect universe, where besides technology changes we also have a continuous narrative disregard for logistics as anything but a plot device.

Cerberus doesn't need to take on the entire Turianfleet, so the scenario is a bit confusing. Cost is a limiting factor, but not a preventing factor: the Lazarus project was depicted as a far more significant cost, and yet the Lazarus and Normandy cost were a slowdown, not a bankruptcy, for Cerberus. (1)

If Cerberus were true freedom fighters then where have the been when the lesser races needed them?

Strawman fallacy. That's not my position. (2)

Does anyone here really consider the Elcor, Volus, Hanar, Krogan or Quarians as a threat to humanity today? Are they oppressing humans? Cerberus/your complaints all come back top the Council and the three races who sit on that Council. Yet you're "Freedom Fighters", really? Then do something about the lack of representation for the other races. Fight for them. Ahh, I see you really aren't "Freedom Fighters", just like any religious extremist of the 21st century, your freedom only counts for your sect. No one else is deserving of freedom, just your people.

And here's the scotsman fallacy. 

An advocacy group doesn't have to advocate for everyone on every to be a real advocacy group. And since nearly all advocacy comes at the cost of someone else's priorities, 'for your own group' is a meaningless inherency.(3)

From what I can tell in the Renegade version Humanity are the oppressors, take over the Council. Asari, Turians, Salarians are referred to as former Council races.

Minus meaningful oppression. (4)

In the Paragon version, the Council doesn't act but at the same time the Turians are granting additional concessions to Humanity and the Council is aboard the Destiny Ascension on a Victory cruise where they are thanking Humanity for their sacrifice. BTW, that is why you only meet them by holo. They're not on the Citadel, they're somewhere in Alliance space thanking the people who saved them.

Nothing in the game suggests the Council is on the Destiny Ascension's victory cruise. The only reason the Council was ever on the Destiny Ascension in the first place was to escape the Citadel. (5)

The primary difference, politics wise, is that in the Paragon version Humanity gets some concessions (but not everything it wants) from a position of weakness, while a Renegade council can wrest more concessions about galactic policy from a position of strength. (6)

Bringing up the "a number of concessions in the past" is somewhat pointless. This is now and things are considerably different. In the past Humans were Johnnie come lately, newest race on the Galactic scene. Today they are a member of the Council and one of the 2 most powerful militaries in space. Turians and Humans have the largest fleets. The STG are spec ops, the Asari ground teams are the same and their fleets are mostly made up of smaller ships, not dreadnoughts.

Since those concessions still continue, they remain relevant. Council status has boosted it's ability to defend its interests, but Humanity is still bound on a number of aspects. (7)

We have very little knowledge of what part biotics will play but the Reapers were pretty hot after that information in Retribution. Just because we think it will be a battle fought by fleets doesn't mean we're right. I suspect that biotics pose a greater threat to the Reapers than we've been shown so far. Especially after Reaper-Grayson went to all that effort to go after the info. To think otherwise would be a colossal intelligence failure. Put it this way, if the biotics are the key and the Reapers gather them up we won't have them when we need them. If they kill them all we won't have then either.

The Reapers can't kill all the biotics without having the ability to break the fleet defenses protecting the Alliance. By the time they can break our fleets, our biotics aren't going to trump the fleets: even the most biotics are not more powerful than dreadnaughts and Thannixes. Biotics aren't the force: their power isn't unlimited, nor do they surpass the scale of warships ME tech.

Nor are Humans even the most powerful (or even plentiful) biotics in the galaxy.

Besides all which, the Ascension Project is a civilian biotic project, not a military project. If you want the Alliance's military biotic program information, the sort that would actually be used in the military conflict, the Ascension project only gives civilian data of the same time period. Not the military secrets. (8)

I just had a thought, there is still considerable mistrust of biotics among humanity. Perhaps this war will finally break that barrier of mistrust down and they will be hailed as protectors of sentient life. Does anyone else see the B5 influences here?

No.

I've numbered your points and my replies will be numbered to match them.


(1) Cerberus can't afford it after the damage done by Anderson and the Turians.

(2) You're right, but it is Zulu's point and this point should have been directed to him. Wrote up my response but had to post it before shutting down my computer to get to work on time. ie, didn't have time to review and reformat, my apologies.

(3) Advocacy Group? They aren't a PAC or lobbyists. They take direct military action, that is not advocacy. This is again a response to the "Freedom Fighter" claim. 

(4) Dunno yet, we really haven't seen behind the screen although everything on the Citadel and in the news implies that the Humans have been acting like bullies even more than in ME1.

(5) Listen to that news report about the 20 colony victory cruise again where the council thanked human Alliance soldiers for their sacrifice. Implies that the Council was present. Again, there is much still hidden behind the scenes.

(6) What? Humans get concessions that the Turians previously denied. What position of weakness have we seen in ME2? The fact that the Council wouldn't invade space beyond its borders on behalf of what your compadres call rebel colonies? Start a war with the Terminus Systems right before the Reapers come? Is that what TIM would do? Position of Weakness? Objection your honor, facts not in evidence.

Renegade ending gains nada other than mistrust. What concessions did the new Council gain from the Asari, Salarians and Turians? If anything they're about to start a rebellion against the Usurpers.

(7) Again, what concessions do the Humans make in ME2? None that I'm aware of other than agreeing the the Reapers don't exist and from what I can see that is as much Human Leadership as represented by Udina than anything else. Being bound in a number of aspects is something that happens when you are a part of a community rather than the sum total of said community. Pointless argument.

(8) Ascension is the primary school for all human Biotic children. In other words, every Biotic before they grow up goes through this program. Having data on each individual's Biotic potential means that the Reapers now have data on every Military Biotic in the Alliance as well as every civilian.

edited for readability.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 15 février 2011 - 10:02 .

[Tennessee88]

Am I allowed to say that I hate aliens and want to watch humanity subjugate them? Except for the Krogan... don't know why but I always liked those guys. Everyone else... I just don't see why we should treat them as equal.

[Bailyn242]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Am I allowed to say that I hate aliens and want to watch humanity subjugate them? Except for the Krogan... don't know why but I always liked those guys. Everyone else... I just don't see why we should treat them as equal.

You're allowed but I think you're setting yourself up for an epic fail. Humanity cannot survive the Reapers without the other races.

[Zulu_DFA]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Cerberus are terrorist who should be removed from the Galaxy as they are doing more bad then good things. Anderson is a War hero, and not a traitor, He did was best, He saw Cerberus as terrorists and a danger to Alliance/Human citizens.

Cerberus are freedom fighters, who should be supported as they are doing what needs to be done to liberate the Galaxy from the decadent and oppressive alien regimes. Anderson is an Alliance poster boy, but in reality a drunkard ready to betray the Alliance over a whim of a woman he is in love with.

No Cerberus are criminals, who should be stopped at all cost as they don't care about other species or the average joe and are just trying to archive their insane ideals, Anderson is a man of intergerity, a man who still holds on onto the basic priniciples and who is trying to make the galaxy a better place for everyone.  

No, Cerberus are idealists, who should prevail against all odds, as they are the only group that dares to take a look into the future, and is capable of giving an adequate purpose for all species in the Galaxy, as well as to every average Joe among our own species. Anderson is a retrograde, who hasn't got even a remotely coherent worldview and is likely to act on impulse just as much as on any kind of outdated preconception.

No, Cerberus are criminals who havve commited severe criminal acts agaist the Alliance and the other Citadel races, They have no morals, and only care to complete their own goals which is to become dominats, their leaders is a coward who hides his real name and doesn't responisbility for the actions his organisation made, for them humans are superior to other races, which is racism, Anderson on other hand follows his principals and has a strict code and he cares for the good of the galaxy.

No, Cerberus are heroes, who have the courage to disregard and rebel against the discriminative Citadel laws, and lead the Mankind to its destiny, as opposed to succumbing to the aliens indulging in ignorant and pointless existence. Their leader is an outstanding selfless individual, who rejected all petty amenities of normal life and even his own name, and fully devoted himself to a greater cause. Anderson is a careless idiot, who thinks that risking an interstellar war when the Reapers are already on their way is good for the Galaxy.

No, Cerberus are terorrists,  who has the blood of many Alliance citiziens/Marines and Childeren on their hands and, who lead humanity into its doom by having no regard for other species, as oppsed to the Aliens who are willing to accept humanity by giving them a seat on the council as humanity contiues to contribute to the Galactic community, The leader of Cerberus is a selfish terrorist and a coward who hasen't achieved anything by himself and contiues to manipulate other people while only careng about his own agenda, David Edward Anderson is a Example for Humanity, who doesn't resort to terrorism and racism to win from the Reapers.

I think this has gone too far, We are just endlessly posting our opinion again and again, i think i have made my point clear.
Cerberus = Terrorist Organisation
TIM = Coward and a Terrorist.
Anderson = Warhero and exemplar.  

No, Cerberus are freedom fighters, who had to sacrifice many lives to help Humanity to achieve in less than three decades what other races were unable to achieve over milennia, and thus proving that Humanity has the right, and, more importantly, the might to be unrestricted by any other race, and confidently take step after step on the path of progress.

The leader of Cerberus is a devoted patriot and a man of vision, who has imposed his indomitable will upon the circumstances and has managed the organization to prevail against all odds, while caring about nothing but maximizing the power of Mankind over the environment.

Rear Admiral Anderson is a disgrace of the Human race. Throughout his career he had resorted to favoritism, and the moment he realised it was no longer working, he betrayed the state he was serving and endangered the entire Galaxy to achieve his personal goal, which is apparantly more important to him than the lives of trillions.

Cerberus = Alliance Black Operations Outfit
TIM = Patriot and Man of Vision
Anderson = Drunkard and Traitor

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 février 2011 - 11:12 .

[Vaenier]

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No, Cerberus are freedom fighters, who had to sacrifice many lives to help Humanity to achieve in less than three decades what other races were unable to achieve over milennia, and thus proving that Humanity has the right, and, more importantly, the might to be unrestricted by any other race, and confidently take step after step on the path of progress.

The leader of Cerberus is a devoted patriot and a man of vision, who has imposed his indomitable will upon the circumstances and has managed the organization to prevail against all odds, while caring about nothing but maximizing the power of Mankind over the environment.

Rear Admiral Anderson is a disgrace of the Human race. Throughout his career he had resorted to favoritism, and the moment he realised it was no longer working, he betrayed the state he was serving and endangered the entire Galaxy to achieve his personal goal, which is apparantly more important to him than the lives of trillions.

Cerberus = Alliance Black Operations Outfit
TIM = Patriot and Man of Vision
Anderson = Drunkard and Traitor

Hahaha, that is truly funny. Delusional but humorous none the less. Humans by their very nature do things at a pace that other, longer lived races, regard as a breakneck pace. That is more a function of the fact that humans only have a century to get things done in their lives. Asari can afford to screw around shaking their asses in bars or playing mercenary for a couple centuries before they get down to work. Humans not so much. Now, what the frell does this have to do with Cerberus? Its a function of short lived human lives.

Was it Cerberus who researched the prothean site on Mars? Was it Cerberus who took to blind jumping through Mass relays, again not Cerberus, they didn't exist. What advancements other than Shepard/Lazarus have they really contributed in the ME universe? Nothing but strife and occasional successes that they happen because they don't cause conflict, even though their objective is still wonked. See: original Normandy tech cooperation with the "bad guy" Turians. Oh, but according to you it was all TIM. 

TIM has repeatedly made major mistakes that cost lives. The only reason that the Lazarus gambit succeeds is because Shepard was there to put the Team together and lead them. TIM collected resumes, I bet Kelly Chambers could have done that much. Even if you claim it was his expertise that knew which resumes to send to Shepard then you have to ask, would Anderson have been able to do the same? I think he would have. Every other example of Cerberus has had major loss of life involved. Success? Hardly.One act does not make a Saint. Under Canon Law Sainthood requires proof of 3 miracles. The guys a putz with control issues and self delusional to boot.

"I haz vizin dude. I gotz planz."

- picks nose, sips drink, lights a smoke, sends another team to their death.

TIM's the drunk. He's always got a drink in his hands. The only time we see Anderson with a drink is at Flux. 

Cerberus = Propaganda Machine with some small research teams scattered through Alliance space and connections to wealthy investors.

Anderson = Doing the best with what he has and a never give up attitude.

[Bailyn242]

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

Right, they hand over critical information to the Reapers... they have no more than a dozen cells throughout the Galaxy yet, "we can't win without them". "Stop picking on Cerberus, they are our last hope."

Geesh you guys sound like the leader of the Thermians in Galaxy Quest.

The only reason Cerberus is needed in the Galaxy is that we need them to show us all what NOT to do.

Roughly 300 humans will save us all? Gimme a break.

[Vaenier]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

Right, they hand over critical information to the Reapers... they have no more than a dozen cells throughout the Galaxy yet, "we can't win without them". "Stop picking on Cerberus, they are our last hope."

Geesh you guys sound like the leader of the Thermians in Galaxy Quest.

The only reason Cerberus is needed in the Galaxy is that we need them to show us all what NOT to do.

Roughly 300 humans will save us all? Gimme a break.

Aparently those 300 humans are enough to take over the galaxy and make TIM galactic emporer using technology that will be outdated after the war. So they must be able to do something easy compared to that like kill the Reapers.

also, lols for picking 300. I want Cerberus to have a Spartan program now.

Modifié par Vaenier, 15 février 2011 - 11:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

(1) Cerberus can't afford it after the damage done by Anderson and the Turians.

Immediately? No. By the time the Reapers return? Debatable: the novels blatantly tell us that Cerberus can and will rebuild.
[qu

(3) Advocacy Group? They aren't a PAC or lobbyists. They take direct military action, that is not advocacy. This is again a response to the "Freedom Fighter" claim.

You don't need to be a PAC or lobbyist, or even non-violent to be an advocacy group.

Cerberus takes a number of approaches simaltenously, as befits its three branches: military, scientific, and, importantly political. Besides military forces, it maintains its own political movements, as well as a number of non-controversial corporations and charities it uses to as proponents for human interests.

(4) Dunno yet, we really haven't seen behind the screen although everything on the Citadel and in the news implies that the Humans have been acting like bullies even more than in ME1.

No policy yet has really been presented to demonstrate the Alliance acting in any qualitative way differently from the old Council conducted business, right down to the 'charmingly fascist' security policies on the Citadel that don't raise an eyebrow on the Paragon Council. For non-Council species this isn't a change at all, and some species (like
the Volus) have even struck up trading support for the Human Council in
exchange for other concessions.

The species who resent the Humans are members of the former Council species, and to date they're really just been on the other side of what they've long doled out: exclusive political control.

(5) Listen to that news report about the 20 colony victory cruise again where the council thanked human Alliance soldiers for their sacrifice. Implies that the Council was present. Again, there is much still hidden behind the scenes.

I did just that, and I am not to ashamed to concede that you are completely correct on this point. It's not simply 'implied': it outright says "Council members aboard..."

(6) What? Humans get concessions that the Turians previously denied. What position of weakness have we seen in ME2? The fact that the Council wouldn't invade space beyond its borders on behalf of what your compadres call rebel colonies? Start a war with the Terminus Systems right before the Reapers come? Is that what TIM would do? Position of Weakness? Objection your honor, facts not in evidence.

The inability to mobilize efforts to defend Human colonies, or the ability to force concessions.

The Turians aren't giving concessions as a result of strength, but as a result of favoing closer relations. The Council decision in ME2 is a trade off between strength, but little trust (Renegade), or trust, but little strength (Paragon). Concessions from the Turians in the Paragon playthrough are unilateral: concessions forced by the Human Council are a result of political strength.

Renegade ending gains nada other than mistrust. What concessions did the new Council gain from the Asari, Salarians and Turians? If anything they're about to start a rebellion against the Usurpers.

Objection, your honor, facts opposing the premise!

In the Renegade playthrough, the Asari are demilitarizing, while the Salarians aren't indicating as having an outright (or hidden) hostile policy. The only power having an outright confrontational position is the Turians.

The Renegade ending gains control of the Council, and what benefits the Council position entails. Galactic legislation, trade rights, security primacy, etc, to Humanity's benefit. While the two Council's are functionally identical in gameplay (possible Spectre status, nothing else), the Human Council is indicated as more inclined to actually act: while the Paragon Council only belatedly takes notice and sees its species look to their own defense before Shepard closes on the Collectors, the Human Council publicly identifies the threat and begins to address it much sooner, including mobilizing the Citadel fleet.

In ME2 gameplay, the Councils are effectively equal, and all things being equal public gratitude is nicer. In lore and background, they aren't: the Human Council is more proactive, which in ME3 can still well mean better or worse.

(7) Again, what concessions do the Humans make in ME2? None that I'm aware of other than agreeing the the Reapers don't exist and from what I can see that is as much Human Leadership as represented by Udina than anything else. Being bound in a number of aspects is something that happens when you are a part of a community rather than the sum total of said community. Pointless argument.

The Human Leadership is whoever you pick as Councilor. Anderson can be nominal leader of the galaxy, or Udina.

(8) Ascension is the primary school for all human Biotic children. In other words, every Biotic before they grow up goes through this program. Having data on each individual's Biotic potential means that the Reapers now have data on every Military Biotic in the Alliance as well as every civilian.

Which really matters jack for military purposes. It isn't what they are after military training, or the height of biotic training/technology, or even the super-strategic gains we have over the Reapers (who, through their Avatar, have demonstrated far greater biotic knowledge and mastery than we have).

Military biotics aren't school children. Besides that most of this generation's military-age biotics were before the Ascension project, simply knowing the names of people isn't some grand strategic advantage: there are other ways to find the names of biotics in the military, and in order to take advantage of knowing the names to be able to kill/capture biotics, the Reapers are all but assured to have the ability to find those names anyway.

Biotics might be an area of Reaper interest, but that doesn't mean that biotics are our anti-starship killers. In light of what the galaxy's most powerful biotics are capable of, that sort of position needs far more justification than 'the Reapers wanted to know how far we are along biotic research that's already well behind theirs.'

[DPSSOC]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

Right, they hand over critical information to the Reapers... they have no more than a dozen cells throughout the Galaxy yet, "we can't win without them". "Stop picking on Cerberus, they are our last hope."

 
Let's say you're being attacked by a bear.  There are 10-15 well armed people standing off to the side watching it like it's some kind of stunt set up for their entertainment.  Then there is one tiny twig of a man who puts himself between you and the bear armed only with a pocket knife.  His chances of success are slim and his judgement is questionable, but he's your only hope because he's the only one doing anything to help.  We can't win without Cerberus, not because they're powerful or well managed, but because they're the only ones fighting. 

[Bailyn242]

Vaenier wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

Right, they hand over critical information to the Reapers... they have no more than a dozen cells throughout the Galaxy yet, "we can't win without them". "Stop picking on Cerberus, they are our last hope."

Geesh you guys sound like the leader of the Thermians in Galaxy Quest.

The only reason Cerberus is needed in the Galaxy is that we need them to show us all what NOT to do.

Roughly 300 humans will save us all? Gimme a break.

Aparently those 300 humans are enough to take over the galaxy and make TIM galactic emporer using technology that will be outdated after the war. So they must be able to do something easy compared to that like kill the Reapers.

also, lols for picking 300. I want Cerberus to have a Spartan program now.

Arbitrary number I picked with no intent to tie it into the Movie / historical battle. The point is that Cerberus is a splinter group and was pointed out to show how ludicrous claims that without Cerberus everything fails. Cerberus plot armor is the only real defense you have. Other than that he's really done nothing of import other than bringing back Shepard. Kinda like the Hoola Hoop, or the pet rock. They invested in a single success with a limited lifespan. 

Every time someone points out their failures the only real success you can point to is Shepard. That's all you've got. Every other action you claim is a success is at best  minor one, at worst its an atrocity..

[Tennessee88]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

Am I allowed to say that I hate aliens and want to watch humanity subjugate them? Except for the Krogan... don't know why but I always liked those guys. Everyone else... I just don't see why we should treat them as equal.

You're allowed but I think you're setting yourself up for an epic fail. Humanity cannot survive the Reapers without the other races.

Use them to defeat the Reapers then get back to business. If cards are played right other races will be weaker while humanity will have the means to become the single most powerful force in the galaxy.

[AdmiralCheez]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Am I allowed to say that I hate aliens and want to watch humanity subjugate them? Except for the Krogan... don't know why but I always liked those guys. Everyone else... I just don't see why we should treat them as equal.

I'll give you twenty bucks if you say the same thing about different human ethnicities/nationalities.

[Tennessee88]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Wow, I just realized how dumb Anderson is. He is one of the few people who actually believe in the Reapers, and he attacks one of the only organizations actually working to stop them... lol

Right, they hand over critical information to the Reapers... they have no more than a dozen cells throughout the Galaxy yet, "we can't win without them". "Stop picking on Cerberus, they are our last hope."

Geesh you guys sound like the leader of the Thermians in Galaxy Quest.

The only reason Cerberus is needed in the Galaxy is that we need them to show us all what NOT to do.

Roughly 300 humans will save us all? Gimme a break.

Aparently those 300 humans are enough to take over the galaxy and make TIM galactic emporer using technology that will be outdated after the war. So they must be able to do something easy compared to that like kill the Reapers.

also, lols for picking 300. I want Cerberus to have a Spartan program now.

Arbitrary number I picked with no intent to tie it into the Movie / historical battle. The point is that Cerberus is a splinter group and was pointed out to show how ludicrous claims that without Cerberus everything fails. Cerberus plot armor is the only real defense you have. Other than that he's really done nothing of import other than bringing back Shepard. Kinda like the Hoola Hoop, or the pet rock. They invested in a single success with a limited lifespan. 

Every time someone points out their failures the only real success you can point to is Shepard. That's all you've got. Every other action you claim is a success is at best  minor one, at worst its an atrocity..

To judge Cerberus as a success or failure before the final act should be avoided by supporters and detractors alike. Yes Shepard is obviously the true key to saving the galaxy... I mean this is a game. But there are several open books when it comes to Cerberus and their actions which while they might not make the final stroke, they certainly enabled the paint for our canvas. 

Thanks to TIM, Aria (arguably the most powerful force outside of Citadel Space) and Anderson have research and evidence which might reveal something crucial to defeating the Reapers. 

Thanks to TIM, Shepard is alive, has a nice ship, a crew, and a dossier of the galaxies best operatives. 

One other thing, which I do not want to get hung up on due to how little we know, Cerberus's actions to force the occurrence of Biotics in humanity was enough to gain the Reapers attention.

None of this delegitimizes your strong feelings towards Cerberus or as you rightfully pointed out that without Shepard none of this would have mattered. 

But if we examine a scenario without Shepard, the situation is far more grim than Cerberus's questionable tactics. Shepard would still be dead and there would have been no operation undertaken to stop the Collectors in time. Even if the Alliance mounted a counter attack and destroyed the Collector cruiser they would never have managed to go through the Omega 4 Relay. The entire time we would have been treating the symptoms rather than the source.

Assuming the Alliance did destroy the Collector Cruiser... we are going into ME3 with no organized force actively anticipating or preparing for their arrival. Aria nor Anderson would have access to the Grayson research, the intact or remains of the Collector base, etc.

[Tennessee88]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

Am I allowed to say that I hate aliens and want to watch humanity subjugate them? Except for the Krogan... don't know why but I always liked those guys. Everyone else... I just don't see why we should treat them as equal.

I'll give you twenty bucks if you say the same thing about different human ethnicities/nationalities.

Haha but I don't feel the same way. I simply don't see humanity and the other races being able to coexist for very long. Let me pose a simple question, if you had to chose between the eradication of humanity or [insert alien race here] which would you choose? 

[AdmiralCheez]

@Tenn88: You know, people used to say that about other countries/religions/whatevs. They're still saying it, in fact.



As for your question, I'd need context. My choice would vary based on not only who's being eradicated, but why. There are a few scenarios in which I'd axe my own species (a zombie plague being one of them, the survival of the entire galaxy being another). In other cases, I'd save Earth without blinking an eye (the aliens are slaves of the Reapers, there's some sort of weird plot device where I have to pick who dies). But honestly, it's this false dichotomy that's the problem, this hostile belief that it's either us or them. I'd draw real world parallels, but I'd rather not bring down the ban hammer for talking politics.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

TIM's the drunk. He's always got a drink in his hands. The only time we see Anderson with a drink is at Flux. 

Sorry, buddy. Anderson is described to get drunk enough to have a hangover as early as 2165 (in Revelation). And then there is the Lair of the Shadow Broker:

TIM: "Drinks consumed today: 7"

Anderson: "2 bottles, Special Stock vodka".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 16 février 2011 - 01:37 .

[jbblue05]

Unlike Anderson TIM is busy banging hot women most of the day and loves his job.



Anderson hates his jobs which means get ******-drunk

[Arijharn]

I want to slap around Anderson but that's about it. I think the main issue is that he diminished the standing of the Alliance within international politics by giving that information to the Turian's (who aren't our closest allies anyway) and diminished the appearance of humanity protecting and policing our own sovereignty.



Even if Cerberus needs to pay for it's crimes (personal mileage may vary) the simple truth is that a) Anderson knew that at the time Cerberus was the ones 'openly' supporting Cmdr. Shephard and his operations against the Reapers/Collectors, That the Alliance/Council weren't really doing anything and c) Anderson knew that the Reapers were coming.



I would have thought it would make more sense for Anderson to start the Witch-Hunt after the Reaper threat has ended, at least making use of Cerberus discoveries at the time, but as far as I understand it, the Turian's have done that.

[Bailyn242]

Uhm, at that time there was no longer any connection to TIM. TIM makes that clear at the very beginning of the book.



Forgot about the number of drinks in LotSB dossiers, but then again the subject matter that drove him to it was rather similar to the things TIM obsesses over.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Unlike Anderson TIM is busy banging hot women most of the day and loves his job.

Anderson hates his jobs which means get ******-drunk

As for the Women comments on TIM, propaganda. His dossier says one thing and the reveal in Retribution says another. In that we discover that he rarely leaves the station and only the most trusted of his people ever come to the station.