502 réponses à ce sujet

[Tennessee88]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Tenn88: You know, people used to say that about other countries/religions/whatevs. They're still saying it, in fact.

As for your question, I'd need context. My choice would vary based on not only who's being eradicated, but why. There are a few scenarios in which I'd axe my own species (a zombie plague being one of them, the survival of the entire galaxy being another). In other cases, I'd save Earth without blinking an eye (the aliens are slaves of the Reapers, there's some sort of weird plot device where I have to pick who dies). But honestly, it's this false dichotomy that's the problem, this hostile belief that it's either us or them. I'd draw real world parallels, but I'd rather not bring down the ban hammer for talking politics.

Understandable, unfortunately the ban hammer will likely limit a fully fleshed out conversation. I will admit I was being a bit overzealous in my original statement because these conversations are getting a little redundant with the same people on the same sides arguing the same points. Anyways let me see if I can explain this in more reasonable terms.

While I am collecting my thoughts into a cohesive argument, let me change that question just a bit. This is a philosophical question more than one based on the real world. Its not meant to apply to a real world situation, rather it is merely meant to reveal prejudices.

You have two button which will release a virus that will wipe out humanity or one of the other council species (you don't know which), you have to press one button or the other. Which are you going to push, I assume that everyone on this forum has a gut reaction to that question. Of course logic takes over and identifies this scenario as silly, which I will be the first to say, it is. But that doesn't mean the tested individual did not have that initial gut reaction. 

The way I see it, the galaxy is a place full of different races that no matter how hard they try, will never be able to truly grasp each other to the point they can live in a non-competitive relationship. The Krogans, who initiated the Krogan wars because that was there primal nature had a virus that had effects far beyond the huge amounts of stillborns. The very action of releasing the virus placed the Krogan in a racial structure where they were lower than the Council races. I am not arguing if their actions were right or wrong (thats another thread), all I am trying to point out is that the races by the necessity of different cultures, biology, and psychologies will never be able to create a galaxy of true coexistence. They can try, but the actions already undertaken by all races has proved the existence of a racial hierarchy. 

Another example, humanity which is a curious species found themselves at war with the Turians because of our curious nature. The Turians asserted themselves as the dominant species and more importantly the correct species. While they might have been, the fact that they are allowed to have those assumptions is what I am trying to get at.

Working on that theory I have to assume that the other races will at one point or another be in conflict with humanity. The reasons for the conflict could be entirely unforseeable, as was the first contact war (which made no sense to us). We allow our morals which are dictated by our common history and common psychology to dictate that the Yahg have no right to leave their planet. Their psychology likely has very little understanding of the problem was  

Therefore I find it logical to advance the interest of the human race so it can always be in a position of supreme strength. I don't want to enslave everyone, but I certainly want other races to think twice before they think about applying their unique perceptions to humanity in order to justify harming it in anyway. 

Modifié par Tennessee88, 16 février 2011 - 02:04 .

[Exile Isan]

Okay I know this was brought up a couple of pages ago, and I don't if anyone posted this, but the note you find on Feros about the Exogeni employee giving samples to Cerberus was most likely Thorian creepers. When you do the Cerberus quests where you wipe out the research facility there are Thorian creepers behind one of the containment fields.

And I'm not getting into this debate since I hate Cerberus.

[White_Buffalo94]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Reminds me of Loghain in DA:O
Speaking of which, he dies in all of my playthroughs. So in ME3 if he sells out Shep then he will go the same way as Loghain. Traitors are the first to die in my book. Of course I should probably read the novel to know exactly what he did...

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Unlike Anderson TIM is busy banging hot women most of the day and loves his job.

Anderson hates his jobs which means get ******-drunk

As for the Women comments on TIM, propaganda. His dossier says one thing and the reveal in Retribution says another. In that we discover that he rarely leaves the station and only the most trusted of his people ever come to the station.

So why can't he have the women invited over?

[Tennessee88]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Reminds me of Loghain in DA:O
Speaking of which, he dies in all of my playthroughs. So in ME3 if he sells out Shep then he will go the same way as Loghain. Traitors are the first to die in my book. Of course I should probably read the novel to know exactly what he did...

Interesting as I always allowed Loghain to live. But playing the role of a human noble who never wanted to be a grey warden and a human centric Shepard are two very different mindsets. 

I would find it interesting that if your character continued to work with Cerberus that Anderson felt he should give information that would lead to your death or capture. Regardless, what he has already done has led me to believe that after he serves his role against the Reapers, he will have to be eliminated. He even knew that Cerberus and Shepard had stopped the Collectors and through a wrench in the Reaper's plans. Yet he went ahead and organized the attack...  

[Vaenier]

I would like to add that without Cerberus pushing for the Normandy to be created, Sovereign would have won already in ME1 and the Galaxy would have died already. The Normandy was a key asset allowing Shep to complete many missions that required stealth. He would have been blown out of the sky otherwise.

Would Shep have even been a Specter without Cerberus pushing for human power in the galaxy?

[Sajuro]

Vaenier wrote...

I would like to add that without Cerberus pushing for the Normandy to be created, Sovereign would have won already in ME1 and the Galaxy would have died already. The Normandy was a key asset allowing Shep to complete many missions that required stealth. He would have been blown out of the sky otherwise.
Would Shep have even been a Specter without Cerberus pushing for human power in the galaxy?

And if TIM's mother had never had him
And if that Williams Jock in highschool hadn't dumped her
And if he hadn't met that tramp he dumped her for
and if that tramp had never existed
and if her great great grandmother never went to that anti government rally
and if the American Revolution had never taken place
and if the Roman Empire had never collapsed.
and if the random cave man from shepard's vision hadn't pooped in the lake.
Short version is, Cave man saved the galaxy

[nevar00]

I think it's pretty amusing that people think Cerberus would be better allies then the ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET.



Let's see, who would I want at my back to face giant evil spaceships... a small block ops organization (even smaller now thanks to that badass Anderson) or every Alliance, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Quarian, Geth (?), and every other soldier and ship from every specie out there? I'm assume there will probably be a 'work together' option, but you'll probably be able to kill TIM in the end.



Anderson? That's a bit stretch, even for the evilist Shepard out there.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why is there an either/or?

[nevar00]

Tennessee88 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Tenn88: You know, people used to say that about other countries/religions/whatevs. They're still saying it, in fact.

As for your question, I'd need context. My choice would vary based on not only who's being eradicated, but why. There are a few scenarios in which I'd axe my own species (a zombie plague being one of them, the survival of the entire galaxy being another). In other cases, I'd save Earth without blinking an eye (the aliens are slaves of the Reapers, there's some sort of weird plot device where I have to pick who dies). But honestly, it's this false dichotomy that's the problem, this hostile belief that it's either us or them. I'd draw real world parallels, but I'd rather not bring down the ban hammer for talking politics.

Understandable, unfortunately the ban hammer will likely limit a fully fleshed out conversation. I will admit I was being a bit overzealous in my original statement because these conversations are getting a little redundant with the same people on the same sides arguing the same points. Anyways let me see if I can explain this in more reasonable terms.

While I am collecting my thoughts into a cohesive argument, let me change that question just a bit. This is a philosophical question more than one based on the real world. Its not meant to apply to a real world situation, rather it is merely meant to reveal prejudices.

You have two button which will release a virus that will wipe out humanity or one of the other council species (you don't know which), you have to press one button or the other. Which are you going to push, I assume that everyone on this forum has a gut reaction to that question. Of course logic takes over and identifies this scenario as silly, which I will be the first to say, it is. But that doesn't mean the tested individual did not have that initial gut reaction. 

The way I see it, the galaxy is a place full of different races that no matter how hard they try, will never be able to truly grasp each other to the point they can live in a non-competitive relationship. The Krogans, who initiated the Krogan wars because that was there primal nature had a virus that had effects far beyond the huge amounts of stillborns. The very action of releasing the virus placed the Krogan in a racial structure where they were lower than the Council races. I am not arguing if their actions were right or wrong (thats another thread), all I am trying to point out is that the races by the necessity of different cultures, biology, and psychologies will never be able to create a galaxy of true coexistence. They can try, but the actions already undertaken by all races has proved the existence of a racial hierarchy. 

Another example, humanity which is a curious species found themselves at war with the Turians because of our curious nature. The Turians asserted themselves as the dominant species and more importantly the correct species. While they might have been, the fact that they are allowed to have those assumptions is what I am trying to get at.

Working on that theory I have to assume that the other races will at one point or another be in conflict with humanity. The reasons for the conflict could be entirely unforseeable, as was the first contact war (which made no sense to us). We allow our morals which are dictated by our common history and common psychology to dictate that the Yahg have no right to leave their planet. Their psychology likely has very little understanding of the problem was  

Therefore I find it logical to advance the interest of the human race so it can always be in a position of supreme strength. I don't want to enslave everyone, but I certainly want other races to think twice before they think about applying their unique perceptions to humanity in order to justify harming it in anyway. 

Sounds like the way humanity is right now.  I fail to see any real difference.

[Tennessee88]

nevar00 wrote...

I think it's pretty amusing that people think Cerberus would be better allies then the ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET.

Let's see, who would I want at my back to face giant evil spaceships... a small block ops organization (even smaller now thanks to that badass Anderson) or every Alliance, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Quarian, Geth (?), and every other soldier and ship from every specie out there? I'm assume there will probably be a 'work together' option, but you'll probably be able to kill TIM in the end.

Anderson? That's a bit stretch, even for the evilist Shepard out there.

I don't see it as one decision being exclusive to the other. Cerberus certainly doesn't as we saw at the end of Retribution. The illusive man gave Anderson the evidence he needed to enroll Allies and gave Aria evidence which means one of the most influential forces in the Terminus System now has access to evidence. I don't even need to mention how TIM created a dossier with more aliens than humans. 

For now the goals of Cerberus and all the factions ignorant (or partially aware) of the Reaper threat are the same.

[nevar00]

Tennessee88 wrote...

nevar00 wrote...

I think it's pretty amusing that people think Cerberus would be better allies then the ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET.

Let's see, who would I want at my back to face giant evil spaceships... a small block ops organization (even smaller now thanks to that badass Anderson) or every Alliance, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Quarian, Geth (?), and every other soldier and ship from every specie out there? I'm assume there will probably be a 'work together' option, but you'll probably be able to kill TIM in the end.

Anderson? That's a bit stretch, even for the evilist Shepard out there.

I don't see it as one decision being exclusive to the other. Cerberus certainly doesn't as we saw at the end of Retribution. The illusive man gave Anderson the evidence he needed to enroll Allies and gave Aria evidence which means one of the most influential forces in the Terminus System now has access to evidence. I don't even need to mention how TIM created a dossier with more aliens than humans. 

For now the goals of Cerberus and all the factions ignorant (or partially aware) of the Reaper threat are the same.

True, it's just that some people in here seem to be making it out as if picking one over the other is the obviously better choice, which it clearly isn't (especially if one was to side with Cerberus, and I can't  see them doing much against the imidiate threat).

[Tennessee88]

@Nevar



In some way yes that is how humanity is, hence the need for nations, armies, intelligence agencies, and wars. The primary difference is that no matter what our psychological and biological make up are the same. We can ultimately empathize with anyone on some level, even if we are from cultures which are entirely different. You cannot apply that same logic to aliens.

[nevar00]

Tennessee88 wrote...

@Nevar

In some way yes that is how humanity is, hence the need for nations, armies, intelligence agencies, and wars. The primary difference is that no matter what our psychological and biological make up are the same. We can ultimately empathize with anyone on some level, even if we are from cultures which are entirely different. You cannot apply that same logic to aliens.

We would unite, but only if something like, well... like what happened in Mass Effect happened, if we were suddenly thrust into some big alien government.  But unless something like that happens, we really are more or less similiar.  I mean you have the "big names"... USA, Britian,... China can be the Turians... then you have the smaller names like the Volus and the Elcor... and then you have the crazies like the Vorcha and Krogan.  My point being that if all these different human countries could unite, I don't see why it is much different with the other races (going by what we know in Mass Effect).  Obviously exceptions could be with say, the Vorcha, but for the main players like the Asari, Salarians, Quarians, etc., uniting to face a  common threat wouldn't be much different.

[jbblue05]

@nevar00

If Anderson is so badass how come Kai Leng kicks his ass with his bare hands.
The only reason Anderson gets the upperhand is by using numbers to his advantage

Modifié par jbblue05, 16 février 2011 - 04:08 .

[Tennessee88]

They can unite under extreme circumstances, but otherwise they all place the interest of their nations ahead of others. Even if the Alliance and other races unite, that is by no means going to continue after the Reapers have been dealt with. Plus what happens when our economic and military power grows enough to be a real threat to the established racial structure? Are we just supposed to accept that we are not meant to be the dominant economic and military power in the galaxy because it disrupts the galactic community? In many ways you are proving my point / agreeing with me.



I am analyzing this situation outside the threat of the Reapers. When that common threat subsides, we are going to be back in the situation where we have to compete with every other race. Our nature has constantly put us at odds with the powers that be for one reason or another. And while I understand their reservations about humanity, I am not going to naively think that humanity is the problem just because we are a race that has always found wonder in exploration and desired to have control (either real or imaginary).



In many ways we are similar to the Krogan. In the right situation we are a useful tool, otherwise we present far more uncertainty than we do comfort. Eventually we are going to represent a problem that needs to culled so the Council 3 can continue their domination...

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...

I think it's pretty amusing that people think Cerberus would be better allies then the ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET.

Let's see, who would I want at my back to face giant evil spaceships... a small block ops organization (even smaller now thanks to that badass Anderson) or every Alliance, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Quarian, Geth (?), and every other soldier and ship from every specie out there? I'm assume there will probably be a 'work together' option, but you'll probably be able to kill TIM in the end.

The best allies are the ones you know will fight at your side.  Where were the Alliance, Asari, Salarians, Turians, Krogan, Quarians, and Geth throughout ME2?  The first four were burying their heads so deep in the sand there's nothing left above and the last 3 were working through their own still unresolved issues.  I'm not saying Cerberus is perfect but they're the only sure ally we have.

Also Cerberus backed you, supported you, trusted you while everyone else turned their back on you.  You'd do well to remember that.

[silent_key]

nevar00 wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

@Nevar

In some way yes that is how humanity is, hence the need for nations, armies, intelligence agencies, and wars. The primary difference is that no matter what our psychological and biological make up are the same. We can ultimately empathize with anyone on some level, even if we are from cultures which are entirely different. You cannot apply that same logic to aliens.

We would unite, but only if something like, well... like what happened in Mass Effect happened, if we were suddenly thrust into some big alien government.  But unless something like that happens, we really are more or less similiar.  I mean you have the "big names"... USA, Britian,... China can be the Turians... then you have the smaller names like the Volus and the Elcor... and then you have the crazies like the Vorcha and Krogan.  My point being that if all these different human countries could unite, I don't see why it is much different with the other races (going by what we know in Mass Effect).  Obviously exceptions could be with say, the Vorcha, but for the main players like the Asari, Salarians, Quarians, etc., uniting to face a  common threat wouldn't be much different.

A race and a species are completely different things.  A race is a genetically different population within a single species.  To compare Humans and Turians as races is a huge simplification of the issues at hand, not to mention scientifically inaccurate.  Therefore, it is an invalid argument to compare these separate species to humanity in the manner you have.  Humans have the ability to unite on a global scale because we can interbreed with anyone we choose, share, and participate in each others cultures until, eventually, we have reached a homogeneous existence.

This is inconceivable with aliens.  We cannot interbreed (except with asari, but thats a moot point since their children are not human).  We can experience their cultures but never be a part of it.  In short, we cannot unify with them like we can with our own species.  Of course we can trade, form alliances, befriend, etc., but in the end we are all looking out for number 1 (our species), and every single species in ME has been shown to hold to this single truth.

I guess this is why I find it completely ridiculous when people post that they would sacrifice humantiy for the sake of the galaxy.  No matter what, we as humans will ALWAYS choose humans over another species.  It is hardwired into our brain, into our very genetic code.  Anyone saying anything different are just spouting fanciful musing with no in depth thought behind them.  Human dominance is great for humans.  And is no more of a burden on the other races than Turian dominance, or Asari dominance.  The Turians will just have to get used to not being top dog anymore.
 
phew...sorry for the long post.  But on the original topic, I found Anderson's actions frustrating.  If the matter had been left well enough alone, Cerberus would have killed Grayson in a day or two (TIM gave an ultimatum of 3 days i think?),  and we would have been in the same place we are at the end of the novel.  Of course, TIM does make the comment near the end that this will at least push the Alliance into action against the reapers, and he won't have to go it alone anymore.  Obviously Cerberus understands that fighting the reapers is top priority, and they want everyone involved in the counterstrike.

[LordShrike]

Is my FemShep going to care either way? No. Reapers are priority one. If either TIM or Anderson get in my way of killing them, they will regret it. Witch i doubt they will be doing, since they are the two who actually ARE helping.

In essence: Either they help me when i ask, or *Renegade interrupt*.

[Fixers0]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Cerberus are terrorist who should be removed from the Galaxy as they are doing more bad then good things. Anderson is a War hero, and not a traitor, He did was best, He saw Cerberus as terrorists and a danger to Alliance/Human citizens.

Cerberus are freedom fighters, who should be supported as they are doing what needs to be done to liberate the Galaxy from the decadent and oppressive alien regimes. Anderson is an Alliance poster boy, but in reality a drunkard ready to betray the Alliance over a whim of a woman he is in love with.

No Cerberus are criminals, who should be stopped at all cost as they don't care about other species or the average joe and are just trying to archive their insane ideals, Anderson is a man of intergerity, a man who still holds on onto the basic priniciples and who is trying to make the galaxy a better place for everyone.  

No, Cerberus are idealists, who should prevail against all odds, as they are the only group that dares to take a look into the future, and is capable of giving an adequate purpose for all species in the Galaxy, as well as to every average Joe among our own species. Anderson is a retrograde, who hasn't got even a remotely coherent worldview and is likely to act on impulse just as much as on any kind of outdated preconception.

No, Cerberus are criminals who havve commited severe criminal acts agaist the Alliance and the other Citadel races, They have no morals, and only care to complete their own goals which is to become dominats, their leaders is a coward who hides his real name and doesn't responisbility for the actions his organisation made, for them humans are superior to other races, which is racism, Anderson on other hand follows his principals and has a strict code and he cares for the good of the galaxy.

No, Cerberus are heroes, who have the courage to disregard and rebel against the discriminative Citadel laws, and lead the Mankind to its destiny, as opposed to succumbing to the aliens indulging in ignorant and pointless existence. Their leader is an outstanding selfless individual, who rejected all petty amenities of normal life and even his own name, and fully devoted himself to a greater cause. Anderson is a careless idiot, who thinks that risking an interstellar war when the Reapers are already on their way is good for the Galaxy.

No, Cerberus are terorrists,  who has the blood of many Alliance citiziens/Marines and Childeren on their hands and, who lead humanity into its doom by having no regard for other species, as oppsed to the Aliens who are willing to accept humanity by giving them a seat on the council as humanity contiues to contribute to the Galactic community, The leader of Cerberus is a selfish terrorist and a coward who hasen't achieved anything by himself and contiues to manipulate other people while only careng about his own agenda, David Edward Anderson is a Example for Humanity, who doesn't resort to terrorism and racism to win from the Reapers.

I think this has gone too far, We are just endlessly posting our opinion again and again, i think i have made my point clear.
Cerberus = Terrorist Organisation
TIM = Coward and a Terrorist.
Anderson = Warhero and exemplar.  

No, Cerberus are freedom fighters, who had to sacrifice many lives to help Humanity to achieve in less than three decades what other races were unable to achieve over milennia, and thus proving that Humanity has the right, and, more importantly, the might to be unrestricted by any other race, and confidently take step after step on the path of progress.

The leader of Cerberus is a devoted patriot and a man of vision, who has imposed his indomitable will upon the circumstances and has managed the organization to prevail against all odds, while caring about nothing but maximizing the power of Mankind over the environment.

Rear Admiral Anderson is a disgrace of the Human race. Throughout his career he had resorted to favoritism, and the moment he realised it was no longer working, he betrayed the state he was serving and endangered the entire Galaxy to achieve his personal goal, which is apparantly more important to him than the lives of trillions.

Cerberus = Alliance Black Operations Outfit
TIM = Patriot and Man of Vision
Anderson = Drunkard and Traitor

No, This is just our opinion on it.

But let just set the facts, Cerberus has commited: Espionage,  Unethical exepriments, Assasination, Mass murder, Torture Etc.
The only thing their leader has achieved is that they are the most wanted group out there.
Anderson hasn't  betrayed the Alliance as far as i know, he is a noble man and well respected within the Alliance navy.

Modifié par Fixers0, 16 février 2011 - 06:56 .

[Casuist]

Were it not for Anderson's actions in ME1, sentient life would already have been extinguished.



...just a friendly reminder.

[OmegaXI]

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Cerberus are terrorist who should be removed from the Galaxy as they are doing more bad then good things. Anderson is a War hero, and not a traitor, He did was best, He saw Cerberus as terrorists and a danger to Alliance/Human citizens.

Cerberus are freedom fighters, who should be supported as they are doing what needs to be done to liberate the Galaxy from the decadent and oppressive alien regimes. Anderson is an Alliance poster boy, but in reality a drunkard ready to betray the Alliance over a whim of a woman he is in love with.

No Cerberus are criminals, who should be stopped at all cost as they don't care about other species or the average joe and are just trying to archive their insane ideals, Anderson is a man of intergerity, a man who still holds on onto the basic priniciples and who is trying to make the galaxy a better place for everyone.  

No, Cerberus are idealists, who should prevail against all odds, as they are the only group that dares to take a look into the future, and is capable of giving an adequate purpose for all species in the Galaxy, as well as to every average Joe among our own species. Anderson is a retrograde, who hasn't got even a remotely coherent worldview and is likely to act on impulse just as much as on any kind of outdated preconception.

No, Cerberus are criminals who havve commited severe criminal acts agaist the Alliance and the other Citadel races, They have no morals, and only care to complete their own goals which is to become dominats, their leaders is a coward who hides his real name and doesn't responisbility for the actions his organisation made, for them humans are superior to other races, which is racism, Anderson on other hand follows his principals and has a strict code and he cares for the good of the galaxy.

No, Cerberus are heroes, who have the courage to disregard and rebel against the discriminative Citadel laws, and lead the Mankind to its destiny, as opposed to succumbing to the aliens indulging in ignorant and pointless existence. Their leader is an outstanding selfless individual, who rejected all petty amenities of normal life and even his own name, and fully devoted himself to a greater cause. Anderson is a careless idiot, who thinks that risking an interstellar war when the Reapers are already on their way is good for the Galaxy.

No, Cerberus are terorrists,  who has the blood of many Alliance citiziens/Marines and Childeren on their hands and, who lead humanity into its doom by having no regard for other species, as oppsed to the Aliens who are willing to accept humanity by giving them a seat on the council as humanity contiues to contribute to the Galactic community, The leader of Cerberus is a selfish terrorist and a coward who hasen't achieved anything by himself and contiues to manipulate other people while only careng about his own agenda, David Edward Anderson is a Example for Humanity, who doesn't resort to terrorism and racism to win from the Reapers.

I think this has gone too far, We are just endlessly posting our opinion again and again, i think i have made my point clear.
Cerberus = Terrorist Organisation
TIM = Coward and a Terrorist.
Anderson = Warhero and exemplar.  

No, Cerberus are freedom fighters, who had to sacrifice many lives to help Humanity to achieve in less than three decades what other races were unable to achieve over milennia, and thus proving that Humanity has the right, and, more importantly, the might to be unrestricted by any other race, and confidently take step after step on the path of progress.

The leader of Cerberus is a devoted patriot and a man of vision, who has imposed his indomitable will upon the circumstances and has managed the organization to prevail against all odds, while caring about nothing but maximizing the power of Mankind over the environment.

Rear Admiral Anderson is a disgrace of the Human race. Throughout his career he had resorted to favoritism, and the moment he realised it was no longer working, he betrayed the state he was serving and endangered the entire Galaxy to achieve his personal goal, which is apparantly more important to him than the lives of trillions.

Cerberus = Alliance Black Operations Outfit
TIM = Patriot and Man of Vision
Anderson = Drunkard and Traitor

No, This is just our opinion on it.

But let just set the facts, Cerberus has commited: Espionage,  Unethical exepriments, Assasination, Mass murder, Torture Etc.
The only thing their leader has achieved is that they are the most wanted group out there.
Anderson hasn't  betrayed the Alliance as far as i know, he is a noble man and well respected within the Alliance navy.

Fact the council has also done all those things and on a greater scale then cerberus ever has, and when has cerberus commited mass murder on a scale to be worthy to be called mass murder?

Anderson was my boy, but  after he went to the turians he crossed the line and became a traitor to humanity. Besides Cerberus is Black Ops and each council race (or former) has their own version of cerberus and I'm sure each has just as many if not more skeletons in their closets.

[OmegaXI]

Sajuro wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I would like to add that without Cerberus pushing for the Normandy to be created, Sovereign would have won already in ME1 and the Galaxy would have died already. The Normandy was a key asset allowing Shep to complete many missions that required stealth. He would have been blown out of the sky otherwise.
Would Shep have even been a Specter without Cerberus pushing for human power in the galaxy?

And if TIM's mother had never had him
And if that Williams Jock in highschool hadn't dumped her
And if he hadn't met that tramp he dumped her for
and if that tramp had never existed
and if her great great grandmother never went to that anti government rally
and if the American Revolution had never taken place
and if the Roman Empire had never collapsed.
and if the random cave man from shepard's vision hadn't pooped in the lake.
Short version is, Cave man saved the galaxy

so saving the galaxy is so easy even a cave man could do it?

[Arijharn]

nevar00 wrote...

I think it's pretty amusing that people think Cerberus would be better allies then the ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET.

Let's see, who would I want at my back to face giant evil spaceships... a small block ops organization (even smaller now thanks to that badass Anderson) or every Alliance, Asari, Salarian, Turian, Krogan, Quarian, Geth (?), and every other soldier and ship from every specie out there? I'm assume there will probably be a 'work together' option, but you'll probably be able to kill TIM in the end.

Anderson? That's a bit stretch, even for the evilist Shepard out there.

I like the gross tonnage that the 'entire' galactic fleet can wield, but atm unfortunately Reaper shields are impervious to it, it'll be interesting to see if the Thanix can be mass-deployed, relatively cheaply.

[mnmseven]

I believe a sufficient paragon points can make Anderson and TIM hug each other.