502 réponses à ce sujet

[Zurcior]

DPSSOC wrote...

I don't think he misses it, if I'm not mistaken Zulu believes Cerberus is still an active part of the Alliance rather than a rogue group (I believe he has a thread dedicated to this theory).  With that in mind any action taken against Cerberus would constitute a betrayal of the Alliance.  Furthermore an argument can be made that Anderson's actions will actually hurt humanity, a lot.

What?! That's so far-fetched even Naruto wouldn't believe it!


Sorry

[darknoon5]

Zurcior wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

I don't think he misses it, if I'm not mistaken Zulu believes Cerberus is still an active part of the Alliance rather than a rogue group (I believe he has a thread dedicated to this theory).  With that in mind any action taken against Cerberus would constitute a betrayal of the Alliance.  Furthermore an argument can be made that Anderson's actions will actually hurt humanity, a lot.

What?! That's so far-fetched even Naruto wouldn't believe it!


Sorry

It is possible (I agree unlikely, however evidence ingame and the whole "former alliance black ops" suggests it is possible), but seeing as either way Anderson had no way of knowing, he made the right call.

[Tennessee88]

darknoon5 wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 so Anderson stops being reasonable and betrays the Alliance in a blink of an eye.

 Since when did Anderson betray the Alliance?

Suppoedly when he went to the turians for help, even though that's ridiculous. He couldn't go to the alliance because of the cerberus insiders. Anderson did what he did to help the Alliance in the long run, something Zulu seems to miss.

He weakened the Alliance at the point when it needed to have the most influence. Even if you agree with Anderson you cannot argue that the Alliance was better off with high ranking officials being hauled off by specially formed CSEC squads comprised of only Turians... 

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

 so Anderson stops being reasonable and betrays the Alliance in a blink of an eye.

 Since when did Anderson betray the Alliance?

Suppoedly when he went to the turians for help, even though that's ridiculous. He couldn't go to the alliance because of the cerberus insiders. Anderson did what he did to help the Alliance in the long run, something Zulu seems to miss.

I don't think he misses it, if I'm not mistaken Zulu believes Cerberus is still an active part of the Alliance rather than a rogue group (I believe he has a thread dedicated to this theory).  With that in mind any action taken against Cerberus would constitute a betrayal of the Alliance.  Furthermore an argument can be made that Anderson's actions will actually hurt humanity, a lot.

Even though I do think Cerberus is an essential part of the Alliance, this has nothing to do with it.

It has been repeated time and again (in this very thread too), that, even if the official story ("Cerberus was always a terrorist group and had never had anything to do with the Alliance") was true, and Anderson had no reason whatsoever to doubt it, he still betrayed the Alliance. He knowingly and deliberately disclosed to a foreign power a package of sensitive information, that in the very least damaged the political standing of his own state. The extent of economic and military interests that got compromised due to his actions is anyone's guess.

Don't give me this bullsh*t, that broadcasting the Alliance is so weak that it can't fight "corruption" on its own is going to do "good in the long run". Next thing you have will be the Turian Councillor demanding to kick the Alliance off the Council and formally empower the Turian Hierarchy to perform police functions in the Alliance space, making the latter a client state, just like the Vol Protectorate. It's only logical, because the Humans are (a) obviously incapable of handling their own dirty lawndry, and ( dangerous because of (a). That's kinda like what the Turians have always wanted to do, isn't it?

This is supported in the book itself. Anderson has to resign and bolt, before charges can be brought against him.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[Bailyn242]

DPSSOC wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 so Anderson stops being reasonable and betrays the Alliance in a blink of an eye.

 Since when did Anderson betray the Alliance?

Suppoedly when he went to the turians for help, even though that's ridiculous. He couldn't go to the alliance because of the cerberus insiders. Anderson did what he did to help the Alliance in the long run, something Zulu seems to miss.

I don't think he misses it, if I'm not mistaken Zulu believes Cerberus is still an active part of the Alliance rather than a rogue group (I believe he has a thread dedicated to this theory).  With that in mind any action taken against Cerberus would constitute a betrayal of the Alliance.  Furthermore an argument can be made that Anderson's actions will actually hurt humanity, a lot.

If they are still an Alliance operation it is so black as to be unknown. In the case where the group is known as a terrorist organization, and that any connections to the alliance are spies for said criminal organization then there is no treason unless and until he is informed that they are still an Alliance operation. 

It is one or the other, they are a criminal/terrorist organization OR an Alliance operation. If they are a deep cover Alliance operation that the Alliance wants to keep black then again there is no treason. According to the information available to Anderson they don't work for the Alliance and any actions against then are legal until he is told otherwise.

So long as the Alliance continues to disavow them then the Alliance has no right to prosecute someone for doing their duty in rooting out their corrupting influence. Sorry, no matter what, that would be the law in a case like the one he postulates. The idea that someone as highly placed as Anderson is kept in the dark about an operation he should know about is ludicrous, Anderson would not betray the Alliance and telling him wouldn't lead him to either. He'd just swallow his disgust and drive on. That is not the case so the accusations of Treason leveled by some in here are completely groundless.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

If they are still an Alliance operation it is so black as to be unknown. In the case where the group is known as a terrorist organization, and that any connections to the alliance are spies for said criminal organization then there is no treason unless and until he is informed that they are still an Alliance operation. 

It is one or the other, they are a criminal/terrorist organization OR an Alliance operation. If they are a deep cover Alliance operation that the Alliance wants to keep black then again there is no treason. According to the information available to Anderson they don't work for the Alliance and any actions against then are legal until he is told otherwise.

It's no treason, until you go to a foreign state and say "I wanna fight some terrorists, but the problem is my state is so full of them, that I want you, the foreigners, to do it for me".

Bailyn242 wrote...

So long as the Alliance continues to disavow them then the Alliance has no right to prosecute someone for doing their duty in rooting out their corrupting influence. Sorry, no matter what, that would be the law in a case like the one he postulates.

The Alliance has right to prosecute Anderson for unauthrized relations with a foreign state. After a due investigation, of course. And he has right for an attorney, and blah... blah...

The fact remains: Anderson has deliberately damaged the Alliance, and even if he manages to get away with it legally, morally he well reamain a traitor to the Alliance.

Bailyn242 wrote...

The idea that someone as highly placed as Anderson is kept in the dark about an operation he should know about is ludicrous, Anderson would not betray the Alliance and telling him wouldn't lead him to either. He'd just swallow his disgust and drive on. That is not the case so the accusations of Treason leveled by some in here are completely groundless.

The idea that Anderson is highly placed in the Alliance is ridiculous, becasue (in the book) he is just a rear admiral and Udina's aide. And even the idea that everyone "highly placed" should know is also rediculous. Only those that "need to know", would know.

Anderson didn't need to know. Ever. And his actions in Retribution just prove why he didn't need to know.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 17 février 2011 - 11:42 .

[DPSSOC]

Tennessee88 wrote...
He weakened the Alliance at the point when it needed to have the most influence. Even if you agree with Anderson you cannot argue that the Alliance was better off with high ranking officials being hauled off by specially formed CSEC squads comprised of only Turians... 

Ok I haven't read the book and was kind of iffy about how far Anderson went.  If he actually turned in high ranking Alliance officials then yes he's a traitor and, sad to say, a moron.  Not for the particular instance necessarily but because what he's done will screw humanity over for a long time.  Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance.  Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

On top of that it demonstrates that humans shouldn't be allowed to police themselves, because we can't, so we get put under the jurisdiction of someone else (Turians probably).  Then all humans are expelled from C-sec, again because we can't be trusted, and on and on until Humans are a social pariah limited to a few existing colonies and absolutely no positions of power or authority.  I hope you're proud of yourself Anderson. 

[Zurcior]

DPSSOC wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...
He weakened the Alliance at the point when it needed to have the most influence. Even if you agree with Anderson you cannot argue that the Alliance was better off with high ranking officials being hauled off by specially formed CSEC squads comprised of only Turians... 

Ok I haven't read the book and was kind of iffy about how far Anderson went.  If he actually turned in high ranking Alliance officials then yes he's a traitor and, sad to say, a moron.  Not for the particular instance necessarily but because what he's done will screw humanity over for a long time.  Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance.  Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

On top of that it demonstrates that humans shouldn't be allowed to police themselves, because we can't, so we get put under the jurisdiction of someone else (Turians probably).  Then all humans are expelled from C-sec, again because we can't be trusted, and on and on until Humans are a social pariah limited to a few existing colonies and absolutely no positions of power or authority.  I hope you're proud of yourself Anderson. 

That's a bit of a reach, isn't it? All of a sudden humanity is going to become some sort of slave race? Come on. You're letting your imagination get the best of you.

[DPSSOC]

Zurcior wrote...
That's a bit of a reach, isn't it? All of a sudden humanity is going to become some sort of slave race? Come on. You're letting your imagination get the best of you.

I didn't say it'd be sudden, just eventual.  What will be sudden is a reduction in high-ranking human C-sec officers, leading to the promotion of unprepared replacements, leading to higher crime.  Any criminal organization consisting primarily of or run by humans will be assumed to have infiltrated the Alliance leading to a Red Scare style witch-hunt.  Also anyone who speaks out for human advancement, or against the Council, will be labelled a Cerberus operative who slipped through the cracks.  So in a few years (decade at most) we'll have no real presence in C-Sec and a government full of nothing but Council yes-men.  Ain't the future lookin' bright.

[Zulu_DFA]

DPSSOC wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...
He weakened the Alliance at the point when it needed to have the most influence. Even if you agree with Anderson you cannot argue that the Alliance was better off with high ranking officials being hauled off by specially formed CSEC squads comprised of only Turians... 

Ok I haven't read the book and was kind of iffy about how far Anderson went.  If he actually turned in high ranking Alliance officials then yes he's a traitor and, sad to say, a moron.

Exact quote from the book:

C-Sec had swooped in and arrested key Cerberus operatives for interrogation, including many high-ranking Alliance officials.

Plus, the Turians said they had their own files on Cerberus, and used them to supplement Grayson's files. So, how accurate was all that is anyone's guess. For all we know, they could be just grabbing everyone they didn't like.

DPSSOC wrote...

Not for the particular instance necessarily but because what he's done will screw humanity over for a long time.  Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance.  Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

On top of that it demonstrates that humans shouldn't be allowed to police themselves, because we can't, so we get put under the jurisdiction of someone else (Turians probably).  Then all humans are expelled from C-sec, again because we can't be trusted, and on and on until Humans are a social pariah limited to a few existing colonies and absolutely no positions of power or authority.  I hope you're proud of yourself Anderson.

My point exactly.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 12:07 .

[Zurcior]

DPSSOC wrote...

Zurcior wrote...
That's a bit of a reach, isn't it? All of a sudden humanity is going to become some sort of slave race? Come on. You're letting your imagination get the best of you.

I didn't say it'd be sudden, just eventual.  What will be sudden is a reduction in high-ranking human C-sec officers, leading to the promotion of unprepared replacements, leading to higher crime.  Any criminal organization consisting primarily of or run by humans will be assumed to have infiltrated the Alliance leading to a Red Scare style witch-hunt.  Also anyone who speaks out for human advancement, or against the Council, will be labelled a Cerberus operative who slipped through the cracks.  So in a few years (decade at most) we'll have no real presence in C-Sec and a government full of nothing but Council yes-men.  Ain't the future lookin' bright.

Again, your imagination is getting the best of you.

[DPSSOC]

Zurcior I direct you to the Council treatment of the Quarians, Krogan, and Batarians. Whatever their reason may have been the point is when the Council drops somebody they drop them fast and hard. My imagination would be getting the best of me if I speculated a Krogan style quarantine to Earth.

Edit: Another thing to take from the Quarians and co.; when you get on the Council's bad side there are no second chances.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 18 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

If they are still an Alliance operation it is so black as to be unknown. In the case where the group is known as a terrorist organization, and that any connections to the alliance are spies for said criminal organization then there is no treason unless and until he is informed that they are still an Alliance operation. 

It is one or the other, they are a criminal/terrorist organization OR an Alliance operation. If they are a deep cover Alliance operation that the Alliance wants to keep black then again there is no treason. According to the information available to Anderson they don't work for the Alliance and any actions against then are legal until he is told otherwise.

It's no treason, until you go to a foreign state and say "I wanna fight some terrorists, but the problem is my state is so full of them, that I want you, the foreigners, to do it for me".

Bailyn242 wrote...

So long as the Alliance continues to disavow them then the Alliance has no right to prosecute someone for doing their duty in rooting out their corrupting influence. Sorry, no matter what, that would be the law in a case like the one he postulates.

The Alliance has right to prosecute Anderson for unauthrized relations with a foreign state. After a due investigation, of course. And he has right for an attorney, and blah... blah...

The fact remains: Anderson has deliberately damaged the Alliance, and even if he manages to get away with it legally, morally he well reamain a traitor to the Alliance.

Bailyn242 wrote...

The idea that someone as highly placed as Anderson is kept in the dark about an operation he should know about is ludicrous, Anderson would not betray the Alliance and telling him wouldn't lead him to either. He'd just swallow his disgust and drive on. That is not the case so the accusations of Treason leveled by some in here are completely groundless.

The idea that Anderson is highly placed in the Alliance is ridiculous, becasue (in the book) he is just a rear admiral and Udina's aide. And even the idea that everyone "highly placed" should know is also rediculous. Only those that "need to know", would know.

Anderson didn't need to know. Ever. And his actions in Retribution just prove why he didn't need to know.

Actually there are plenty of "real world" examples of sovereign states seeking assistance from foreign powers in dealing with their internal terrorist threats, especially when those threats have suborned parts of their government. The Alliance is not the United States nor should there be such a comparison. The US is one of the more stable and powerful governments in the world today. It is not riddled with terrorist cells within the government. On the other hand the Alliance is a very young government and obviously is riddled with Cerberus leaks. What he did is no different than the Pakistani seeking CIA assistance in getting some terrorist group operating out of the mountains along the Afgani border.

Anderson is the Military Advisor to the most powerful Alliance representative in space. Whatever his rank is he has the need to know on all Alliance military operations. Do you really think that the National Security Advisor is not kept informed of ongoing US military operations? He needs to know what the Alliance Military is doing so that he can coordinate Council security operations with his counterparts among the other Council races.

Sure, someone in the Alliance above him can be pissed that he did this and force him out of office but they wouldn't be trying him for treason, there was none.

[Arijharn]

Casuist wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

How exactly are you going to bring Cerberus to 'heel' though? Change who the illusive man is?

If it's because they perform unethical studies, then Isn't the fact that they perform unethical studies one of the main reasons they have an edge? I mean, the Lazarus Project itself could be considered as unethical, if the studies on Pragia (including Jack's own custom bio-amp) actually provided a noticeable increase in human potential for example, isn't that still an edge that couldn't necessarily be bought else wise?

...research subjects are more valuable when they're alive.

Research facilities are more valuable when the inmates don't destroy them.

I'm sorry, but can you not start out with the eclipses whenever you reply, I just can't help thinking that when you do that you're actually slow in the head (although I'm guessing your actual intent is the opposite, i.e., 'what I'm saying should be completely obvious to someone with half a brain.')

My point this is that yes, they do suffer 'momentary setbacks' (ahh, kael'thalas Sunstrider, how I miss you), but they do produce results. They did prove that they control the Geth, they did prove that you can resurrect someone, they did prove that you can create a human biotic super-soldier.

Sure, things go wrong, but how much of that is because it would be pretty boring otherwise (just think how much content we'd 'miss' out on if we didn't have to clean up Cerberus?), but more to the point, bringing them to 'heel' is a pretty damn nebulous claim to make.

[DPSSOC]

Bailyn242 wrote...
Actually there are plenty of "real world" examples of sovereign states seeking assistance from foreign powers in dealing with their internal terrorist threats, especially when those threats have suborned parts of their government.

 
Key phrase, sovereign states.  I like Anderson but he is not a sovereign state, or even the representative of a sovereign state in this instance.  Whatever his position may be he does not have the authority to make the decision to involve foreign powers in an investigation of military/government corruption.  He steps well outside his bounds in approaching the Turians and that is a betrayal (not sure if it compromises treason but still).

[nevar00]

DPSSOC wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...
He weakened the Alliance at the point when it needed to have the most influence. Even if you agree with Anderson you cannot argue that the Alliance was better off with high ranking officials being hauled off by specially formed CSEC squads comprised of only Turians... 

Ok I haven't read the book and was kind of iffy about how far Anderson went.  If he actually turned in high ranking Alliance officials then yes he's a traitor and, sad to say, a moron.  Not for the particular instance necessarily but because what he's done will screw humanity over for a long time.  Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance.  Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

On top of that it demonstrates that humans shouldn't be allowed to police themselves, because we can't, so we get put under the jurisdiction of someone else (Turians probably).  Then all humans are expelled from C-sec, again because we can't be trusted, and on and on until Humans are a social pariah limited to a few existing colonies and absolutely no positions of power or authority.  I hope you're proud of yourself Anderson. 

Actually you can thank TIM and Cerberus for all of that: you know, sneaking racist double agents in such high positions of power.  If anything, Anderson helped quiet down the mess that would have broken out when eventually some other race found out that Cerberus had so well infiltrated the Alliance.  At least with Anderson fixing things it can show the others that humanity still has control over things, and it can at least be kept somewhat quiet when it comes to how bad it was.

Captain Anderson.  Not only a badass, but a Goddamn selfless hero.  This man is the face of humanity.  Give him a damn medal.

[Zurcior]

DPSSOC wrote...

Zurcior I direct you to the Council treatment of the Quarians, Krogan, and Batarians. Whatever their reason may have been the point is when the Council drops somebody they drop them fast and hard. My imagination would be getting the best of me if I speculated a Krogan style quarantine to Earth.

Edit: Another thing to take from the Quarians and co.; when you get on the Council's bad side there are no second chances.

2 out 3 of those examples are from before humans knew there was life outside Earth. The Krogan started a war that rivaled the Rachni Invasion. Hardly comparable in my point of view. The whole Quarian fiasco is the one council decision I disapprove most of. We don't really know how the current council likes to handle such matters. Let me reiterate, I don't approve of some of the ways the Council has handle their problems, but I'll be damned if humanity is represented by Cerberus. And if the Council does as you believe they'll do(assuming they care enough), humanity will do what humanity does best.

[Arijharn]

darknoon5 wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 so Anderson stops being reasonable and betrays the Alliance in a blink of an eye.

 Since when did Anderson betray the Alliance?

Suppoedly when he went to the turians for help, even though that's ridiculous. He couldn't go to the alliance because of the cerberus insiders. Anderson did what he did to help the Alliance in the long run, something Zulu seems to miss.

You're entirely missing the point. When Anderson went to the Turian's for their help he gave the appearance that the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Even if Anderson is completely correct and made the sound decision, you should never underestimate the value of perception within the realm of international politics, especially since the Alliance just joined the Council. 

Just imagine for example if the United States' legislature passed laws that favoured wheat imports from Australia for example (this is on top of the fair trading agreement that the two countries already enjoy). Imagine if this special deal would allow the United States to shore up it's supplies of germ seed or whatever and would eventually save a sizeable amount of money. This is good no? However; do you really think wheat farmers in the United States would be happy with this decision when their profit margins are; if you'll pardon the pun, scythed in half. What do you suppose would happen if the United States wheat farmers had a sizeable lobbyist presence that not only successfully challenged the legislature, but overturned it and not only that, successfully sold the idea to the general public that what the federal government did was completely moronic? I'm going to guess that the immediate reaction would be a massive loss of face.

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...
Actually you can thank TIM and Cerberus for all of that: you know, sneaking racist double agents in such high positions of power.  If anything, Anderson helped quiet down the mess that would have broken out when eventually some other race found out that Cerberus had so well infiltrated the Alliance.  At least with Anderson fixing things it can show the others that humanity still has control over things, and it can at least be kept somewhat quiet when it comes to how bad it was.

And on what grounds would the Council start an investigation into the Alliance military/government?  They couldn't stop the Batarians from having slavery, despite being illegal in Council space, I doubt they can just waltz in and start a witch hunt.  However Cerberus was just doing what they were meant to do, what they were created to do.  You don't blame the snake for biting you.

Anderson's actions would have been laudable and it would have shown that we have control over things if he hadn't gone to the Turians.  If Anderson had been able to clean house in-house (using only human soldiers, police, officials, etc. then you're right he would have been a hero.  Unfortunately by going to the Turians he broadcasted that Cerberus had gotten completely out of control.  If I ask someone to help me carry something it's an admission on my part that I can't do it myself (whether that's why I ask or not).  Same with this, by going to the Turians he admitted humanity couldn't sort this out theselves.

[Zurcior]

DPSSOC wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...
Actually there are plenty of "real world" examples of sovereign states seeking assistance from foreign powers in dealing with their internal terrorist threats, especially when those threats have suborned parts of their government.

 
Key phrase, sovereign states.  I like Anderson but he is not a sovereign state, or even the representative of a sovereign state in this instance.  Whatever his position may be he does not have the authority to make the decision to involve foreign powers in an investigation of military/government corruption.  He steps well outside his bounds in approaching the Turians and that is a betrayal (not sure if it compromises treason but still).

Uh, yes he is.

[DPSSOC]

Zurcior wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Zurcior I direct you to the Council treatment of the Quarians, Krogan, and Batarians. Whatever their reason may have been the point is when the Council drops somebody they drop them fast and hard. My imagination would be getting the best of me if I speculated a Krogan style quarantine to Earth.

Edit: Another thing to take from the Quarians and co.; when you get on the Council's bad side there are no second chances.

2 out 3 of those examples are from before humans knew there was life outside Earth. The Krogan started a war that rivaled the Rachni Invasion. Hardly comparable in my point of view. The whole Quarian fiasco is the one council decision I disapprove most of. We don't really know how the current council likes to handle such matters. Let me reiterate, I don't approve of some of the ways the Council has handle their problems, but I'll be damned if humanity is represented by Cerberus. And if the Council does as you believe they'll do(assuming they care enough), humanity will do what humanity does best.

I think you're missing my point.  Those three races got on the Council's bad side in three vastly different ways.  The Council response was the same; drop 'em.  3 races, spanning over 1,000 years all getting the same response.  That's indicative of an MO and as such serves as a predictable model for future actions.  It wasn't meant as a criticism simply a reminder that the Council is not an institution big on forgiveness or variety.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Actually there are plenty of "real world" examples of sovereign states seeking assistance from foreign powers in dealing with their internal terrorist threats, especially when those threats have suborned parts of their government.

Such states are the Hanar, the Volus, The Elcor, and the Drell of the real world. Weaklings.

Bailyn242 wrote...

The Alliance is not the United States nor should there be such a comparison.

I concur. The Alliance is like today's China. Relatively new kid on the block, not liked very much politically by the old guys, but already indispensable economically. Vying for power and leadership.

Bailyn242 wrote...

What he did is no different than the Pakistani seeking CIA assistance in getting some terrorist group operating out of the mountains along the Afgani border.

When was the last time Pakistan kicked Americans' arses in open warfare?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Anderson is the Military Advisor to the most powerful Alliance representative in space.

Key word: "adviser". He could try and influence the decisions all he wanted, but he had no right to make them.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Whatever his rank is he has the need to know on all Alliance military operations.

Oh yeah?

Do you even understand, what the "need-to-know basis" means? BTW, I remember this was the first thing he lectured you on in the ME universe.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Do you really think that the National Security Advisor is not kept informed of ongoing US military operations? He needs to know what the Alliance Military is doing so that he can coordinate Council security operations with his counterparts among the other Council races.

Do you really think the military attache of the US (Chinese) mission to the United Nations is kept informed of all ongoing black ops conducted by the CIA (whatever the Chinese have for it)?

Bailyn242 wrote...

Sure, someone in the Alliance above him can be pissed that he did this and force him out of office but they wouldn't be trying him for treason, there was none.

Legally, that is up to the investigation to determine. Morally, I repeat, no investiation is needed. The damage to the Alliance is done and is self-evident. Anderson is a turncoat.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 01:04 .

[Shadow of Sparta]

do the writers actually pay as much attention to these aspects of story as you guys do or do they just create a universe as expansive as this without intending to stimulate such heated discussion?genuine question

[DPSSOC]

Zurcior wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Key phrase, sovereign states.  I like Anderson but he is not a sovereign state, or even the representative of a sovereign state in this instance.  Whatever his position may be he does not have the authority to make the decision to involve foreign powers in an investigation of military/government corruption.  He steps well outside his bounds in approaching the Turians and that is a betrayal (not sure if it compromises treason but still).

Uh, yes he is.

Yes he is what?  A representative of a sovereign state or within his authority to approach foreign powers?  Or both?  If the first then no; others have pointed out in the book Anderson is not the human councillor Udina is with Anderson functioning as his military advisor.  For the second no he's not.  At best as an Admiral Anderson has the authority to conduct an investigation of the Alliance military.  He would still require the authorization of his utmost superior (whether that's the President or someone else) to involve foreign powers in the investigation.  Now for the third, even if he were a representative that authroizes him to speak on humanity's behalf to the Council, nothing else.  He would still require the authorization of the President (and probably parliament) to even begin the investigation let alone involve aliens in it.

[Xilizhra]

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.