502 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Shadow of Sparta wrote...

do the writers actually pay as much attention to these aspects of story as you guys do or do they just create a universe as expansive as this without intending to stimulate such heated discussion?genuine question

We'd all like to think they do, or at least I would, but even if they don't it doesn't matter, there's fun to be had.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

Not disagreeing with you, the Alliance couldn't and it probably does, but it wasn't Anderson's place to decide we'd reached the point we couldn't police ourselves and there is absolutely nothing good that can come from advertising the fact.

[Xilizhra]

Nothing good for the Alliance leadership, possibly. For ordinary galactic citizens who now have less of a chance of getting scooped into Cerberus' maw of experimentation? I would say so.

[Shadow of Sparta]

DPSSOC wrote...

Shadow of Sparta wrote...

do the writers actually pay as much attention to these aspects of story as you guys do or do they just create a universe as expansive as this without intending to stimulate such heated discussion?genuine question

We'd all like to think they do, or at least I would, but even if they don't it doesn't matter, there's fun to be had.

fair enough.discussion is definitely interesting.i appreciate the views form both perspectives .However,shouldn't decisions made in-game be based on information learned in-game?would bioware expect us to know all the background from the books and comics because shepard certainly doesn't.if we do confront cerberus or anderson in me3,won't the way we handle the situations be based on info provided in-game hence making any assumptions made now insignificant?

[nevar00]

DPSSOC wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
Actually you can thank TIM and Cerberus for all of that: you know, sneaking racist double agents in such high positions of power.  If anything, Anderson helped quiet down the mess that would have broken out when eventually some other race found out that Cerberus had so well infiltrated the Alliance.  At least with Anderson fixing things it can show the others that humanity still has control over things, and it can at least be kept somewhat quiet when it comes to how bad it was.

And on what grounds would the Council start an investigation into the Alliance military/government?  They couldn't stop the Batarians from having slavery, despite being illegal in Council space, I doubt they can just waltz in and start a witch hunt.  However Cerberus was just doing what they were meant to do, what they were created to do.  You don't blame the snake for biting you.

"Doing what they were created to do?"  What... you mean in the same way the Taliban are doing what they were created to do?  I don't understand your point here... are you suggesting the Alliance created Cerberus?  Besides, the Turians proved that they knew more about Cerberus then we thought they did: now imagine if they went by themselves and ended up saving the Alliance from Cerberus themselves.  Imagine how bad humanity would've looked.

Genuine question: was that ever made canon (the Alliance creating Cerberus I mean)?  I know in the first game they tried to make Cerberus out as a black ops organization, but I thought they backtracked that little tidbit after they saw the potential they had and made them out to be more of an independant organization in ME 2 and in the books.  I haven't read the comics or anything so idk if that was ever made official or not.

Anderson's actions would have been laudable and it would have shown that we have control over things if he hadn't gone to the Turians.  If Anderson had been able to clean house in-house (using only human soldiers, police, officials, etc. then you're right he would have been a hero.  Unfortunately by going to the Turians he broadcasted that Cerberus had gotten completely out of control.  If I ask someone to help me carry something it's an admission on my part that I can't do it myself (whether that's why I ask or not).  Same with this, by going to the Turians he admitted humanity couldn't sort this out theselves.

Maybe, but who was he supposed to go to that could have possibly not gotten to any of the Cerberus agents hidden throughout the Alliance?  Anderson goes snooping around and he'll end up like Karajou within a few days and  nothing would get done.  By doing what he did he shows that humanity isn't above swallowing his pride and looking for help from others, especial when the alternative is to allow Cerberus to assume direct control of the Alliance.

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[Bailyn242]

DPSSOC wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...
Actually there are plenty of "real world" examples of sovereign states seeking assistance from foreign powers in dealing with their internal terrorist threats, especially when those threats have suborned parts of their government.

 
Key phrase, sovereign states.  I like Anderson but he is not a sovereign state, or even the representative of a sovereign state in this instance.  Whatever his position may be he does not have the authority to make the decision to involve foreign powers in an investigation of military/government corruption.  He steps well outside his bounds in approaching the Turians and that is a betrayal (not sure if it compromises treason but still).

Of course Anderson is not a sovereign state in and of himself, why bother with such fluff statements? They have no bearing in the debate.

He is however the national security advisor to one and it is within his purview to take such actions when the data he has reveals that his state's internal organs have been penetrated by a terrorist and criminal organization. The key issue is that his state has declared that group a terrorist group and his allies have as well. Since they had obviously penetrated the very internal government agencies he would normally turn to to deal with this problem he makes the right decision based on HIS OWN GOVERNMENT'S DECLARED POSITION and brings in allies to take the action that his own government cannot due to this penetration. Happens all the time in the REAL WORLD. Do not let your love of Cerberus and emotional response to them getting slapped lead you astray. They did what they did and while there may/will be consequences, a trial for treason is not one of them.

As for the argument that you have proven that humanity can't police themselves. What's your point? They obviously couldn't and wouldn't be able to until this was dealt with. Thinking that the other races didn't know this is foolish, they know and they have serious questions about humanity because of it. This issue was so bad that it provided justification for anti-human sentiments among the other races.

By stepping up and acknowledging this fact Anderson proved that humanity is truly a part of the community and is responsible enough to deal with the problem how ever they have to. By using the Turians to clean out that batch of moles he has made it possible to police themselves moving forward and sent the message that no one is above the law of the land. If humanity kept on the path of denial it would cause even more resentment and the consequences of that could be huge.

Lets put it this way if human corruption wasn't addressed then there could come a point (before the Human Fleet gets rebuilt) where the Council rejects humanity as a member race and moves to grant the rights they had been granted previously (not the seat on the council but colony rights) to some other races that would benefit from the additional colony rights. Heck, at the pace Wrex was gathering the Krogan they might get the seat and the colonies and kick humanity in their daddy bags if the corruption bad enough.

Simply put, Anderson was put between a rock and a hard place and was willing to put himself in harms way to get the job done regardless. He may be reviled among certain groups within humanity but history will probably tell another tale in the long run. To him it doesn't matter what happens to him or his name. The criminals got what was coming.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 18 février 2011 - 01:27 .

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nothing good for the Alliance leadership, possibly. For ordinary galactic citizens who now have less of a chance of getting scooped into Cerberus' maw of experimentation? I would say so.

Yes but, at the risk of sounding insensitive, those aren't the people Anderson owes his loyalty, to hell with them.

Shadow of Sparta wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Shadow of Sparta wrote...
do the writers actually pay as much attention to these aspects of story as you guys do or do they just create a universe as expansive as this without intending to stimulate such heated discussion?genuine question

We'd all like to think they do, or at least I would, but even if they don't it doesn't matter, there's fun to be had.

fair enough.discussion is definitely interesting.i appreciate the views form both perspectives .However,shouldn't decisions made in-game be based on information learned in-game?would bioware expect us to know all the background from the books and comics because shepard certainly doesn't.if we do confront cerberus or anderson in me3,won't the way we handle the situations be based on info provided in-game hence making any assumptions made now insignificant?

A little, but if I learned anything from ME2 it's that most of the assumptions on the forums are made insignificant when the game comes out.  I'm sure we'll get some kind of info from the book given to us if they plan to force a confrontation about it.  Possibly a communication with TIM (email or holo) where he informs us that Anderson has thrown the s**t directly into the fan, with a few details thrown in by Anderson later on so we can get both sides of the story and make an informed decision.  Or not we'll have to wait and see.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

What a disgusting viewpoint

Humanity (as a species) would be humiliated in your scenario imo. We'd probably wouldn't be quite as reviled as the Quarian's but damn we'd be close. Perception is everything in this, so even if Anderson thought that he was doing the right thing, he did the moronic thing and for lots of different reasons.


I wouldn't say our society would completely collapse, but honestly it would regress a lot. If Humanity could not be trusted for example, who would want to do business with us? If Humanity couldn't be trusted, how would they believe us if we said: "Guys, it's okay now really. Cerberus has been completely routed." The Earth 'golden age' would disappear imo.

[Bailyn242]

Arijharn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

What a disgusting viewpoint

Humanity (as a species) would be humiliated in your scenario imo. We'd probably wouldn't be quite as reviled as the Quarian's but damn we'd be close. Perception is everything in this, so even if Anderson thought that he was doing the right thing, he did the moronic thing and for lots of different reasons.


I wouldn't say our society would completely collapse, but honestly it would regress a lot. If Humanity could not be trusted for example, who would want to do business with us? If Humanity couldn't be trusted, how would they believe us if we said: "Guys, it's okay now really. Cerberus has been completely routed." The Earth 'golden age' would disappear imo.

So you would prefer to remain an infantile race than a responsible one? Tell me how he could have resolved this dilemma without outside help?

He couldn't, unfortunately you and your allies don't want to admit that anything needed to be resolved. I bet money that you would if they strapped you to a table and started cutting.<_<

TIM is not humanity and neither is Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

Yes but, at the risk of sounding insensitive, those aren't the people Anderson owes his loyalty, to hell with them.

And Shepard betrayed the Council and the Alliance alike when she fled the Citadel for Ilos. I for one am not complaining.

Humanity (as a species) would be humiliated in your scenario imo. We'd probably wouldn't be quite as reviled as the Quarian's but damn we'd be close. Perception is everything in this, so even if Anderson thought that he was doing the right thing, he did the moronic thing and for lots of different reasons.

We as a species are the ones who harbored a galactic pseudo-terrorist group within our government. That's... pretty damned bad.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

From the Turians' perspective - of course. They don't even need this whole Cerberus stuff to feel that way. But we're discussing Humans here, and Alliance's officers at that, and how they shouldn't sell out the Alliance to the Turians no matter what.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 01:50 .

[Zurcior]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

From the Turians' perspective - of course. They don't even need this whole Cerberus stuff to feel that way. But we're discussing Humans here, and Alliance's officers at that, and how they shouldn't sell out the Alliance to the Turians no matter what.

 He didn't sellout the Alliance. He soldout Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

From the Turians' perspective - of course. They don't even need this whole Cerberus stuff to feel that way. But we're discussing Humans here, and Alliance's officers at that, and how they shouldn't sell out the Alliance to the Turians no matter what.

I think that in this case, the Alliance deserved its "selling out." It was either incompetent or treacherous itself.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]nevar00 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
And on what grounds would the Council start an investigation into the Alliance military/government?  They couldn't stop the Batarians from having slavery, despite being illegal in Council space, I doubt they can just waltz in and start a witch hunt.  However Cerberus was just doing what they were meant to do, what they were created to do.  You don't blame the snake for biting you.[/QUOTE]

"Doing what they were created to do?"  What... you mean in the same way the Taliban are doing what they were created to do?  I don't understand your point here... are you suggesting the Alliance created Cerberus?  Besides, the Turians proved that they knew more about Cerberus then we thought they did: now imagine if they went by themselves and ended up saving the Alliance from Cerberus themselves.  Imagine how bad humanity would've looked.[/quote]

Exactly like that.  You stop a group like that certainly, repair the damage, but you don't blame them for the effect their actions had.  I grab a snake and the snake bites me it's my fault not theirs.  Cerberus does what it does, you stop it, punish it, but you don't complain that they made you look bad.

[quote]nevar00 wrote...
Genuine question: was that ever made canon (the Alliance creating Cerberus I mean)?  I know in the first game they tried to make Cerberus out as a black ops organization, but I thought they backtracked that little tidbit after they saw the potential they had and made them out to be more of an independant organization in ME 2 and in the books.  I haven't read the comics or anything so idk if that was ever made official or not.[/quote]

Yeah I'm a bit sketchy on that too.

[quote]nevar00 wrote...


[quote]Anderson's actions would have been laudable and it would have shown that we have control over things if he hadn't gone to the Turians.  If Anderson had been able to clean house in-house (using only human soldiers, police, officials, etc. then you're right he would have been a hero.  Unfortunately by going to the Turians he broadcasted that Cerberus had gotten completely out of control.  If I ask someone to help me carry something it's an admission on my part that I can't do it myself (whether that's why I ask or not).  Same with this, by going to the Turians he admitted humanity couldn't sort this out theselves.[/quote]Maybe, but who was he supposed to go to that could have possibly not gotten to any of the Cerberus agents hidden throughout the Alliance?  Anderson goes snooping around and he'll end up like Karajou within a few days and  nothing would get done.  By doing what he did he shows that humanity isn't above swallowing his pride and looking for help from others, especial when the alternative is to allow Cerberus to assume direct control of the Alliance.[/quote]

We've shown that in the past, we've asked for assistance before that's not an issue.  The issue is that what Anderson did destroys any credibility the Alliance had as a government, because from now on the other races can't be sure whether or not we've been infiltrated by a criminal organization.  As for what he could have done is pulled an Elliot Ness, gather what people you know you can trust and go to work.  Alternatively he could have done nothing and played along, always an option.

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Key phrase, sovereign states.  I like Anderson but he is not a sovereign state, or even the representative of a sovereign state in this instance.  Whatever his position may be he does not have the authority to make the decision to involve foreign powers in an investigation of military/government corruption.  He steps well outside his bounds in approaching the Turians and that is a betrayal (not sure if it compromises treason but still).[/quote]

Of course Anderson is not a sovereign state in and of himself, why bother with such fluff statements? They have no bearing in the debate.

He is however the national security advisor to one[/quote]
 
I thought he was Udina's military advisor (that's what I got from my playthrough with Udina on the Council), those aren't the same thing.  Anderson serves to help Udina understand military matters because they're outside his skill set.  Were he the equivalent of a national security advisor he would answer to the President of the Alliance, not the Councillor (who merely serves as humanity's voice).

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
and it is within his purview to take such actions when the data he has reveals that his state's internal organs have been penetrated by a terrorist and criminal organization.[/quote]
 
No it's not.  He's an advisor it's debatable if it would be within his purview to take such action within the Alliance Navy let alone the whole thing.

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
The key issue is that his state has declared that group a terrorist group and his allies have as well. Since they had obviously penetrated the very internal government agencies he would normally turn to to deal with this problem he makes the right decision based on HIS OWN GOVERNMENT'S DECLARED POSITION and brings in allies to take the action that his own government cannot due to this penetration. Happens all the time in the REAL WORLD.[/quote]
 
Yes but Anderson DOES NOT HAVE THAT AUTHORITY.  He is an aide to the Human Councillor to help explain military matters to Udina, that's it, that's his job.  Even a national security advisor doesn't have the authority to grant foreign powers jurisdiction within his nation, that requires the approval of the head of state.

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
As for the argument that you have proven that humanity can't police themselves. What's your point? They obviously couldn't and wouldn't be able to until this was dealt with. Thinking that the other races didn't know this is foolish, they know and they have serious questions about humanity because of it. This issue was so bad that it provided justification for anti-human sentiments among the other races.

By stepping up and acknowledging this fact Anderson proved that humanity is truly a part of the community and is responsible enough to deal with the problem how ever they have to. By using the Turians to clean out that batch of moles he has made it possible to police themselves moving forward and sent the message that no one is above the law of the land.[/quote]
 
Except he hasn't.  By admitting, without wiggle room, that we couldn't take care of our own affairs we will never be trusted to do so again.  That is what you're not getting.  If a school has to call in the police to get the students under control that school will always have a police presence from then on out.  The same applies here.  By showing that we needed outside influence to police ourselves, and allowing such outside influence, we will never be rid of it, ever.  There is now nothing we can do to convince the rest of the galactic community that we're clean and will stay that way because there's no way of knowing if we missed someone.

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
If humanity kept on the path of denial it would cause even more resentment and the consequences of that could be huge.[/quote]
 
Perhaps, or perhaps before that happened Cerberus would stage a massive bust cleaning out a few high ranking offiicials and big business men who would be sent to a classified location to be imprisoned when in reality they'd just be working within Cerberus proper now or recycled and released with fake ID's.  This shows that humanity is trying and making progress in cleaning their own house.  If we don't get everyone the Turians know about maybe our intelligence isn't as good as theirs (possibly compromised).  So the Turians, encouraged by the bust, gives the Alliance their list and they get cleaned out in the same way.  This way we appear to police ourselves, we still look like part of the community for accepting Turian aid, but the difference is we don't ask them to come in and do it for us.

[quote]Bailyn242 wrote...
Simply put, Anderson was put between a rock and a hard place and was willing to put himself in harms way to get the job done regardless. He may be reviled among certain groups within humanity but history will probably tell another tale in the long run. To him it doesn't matter what happens to him or his name. The criminals got what was coming.[/quote]

If the Council sticks to their MO there won't be a long run.  I refuse to believe you haven't noticed but the Council crushes the weak.  What Anderson did was throw humanity into shark infested waters with open wounds.

Edit:
[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]Yes but, at the risk of sounding insensitive, those aren't the people Anderson owes his loyalty, to hell with them.[/quote]
And Shepard betrayed the Council and the Alliance alike when she fled the Citadel for Ilos. I for one am not complaining.[/quote]

Yes he betrayed the people he owed his loyalty for their own and everyone elses good.  Anderson is hurting the people he's betraying and the people they represent, not helping them.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 18 février 2011 - 02:05 .

[nevar00]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Cause after this the Council and other governments know just how high the corruption went, so from now on any human criminal group makes a huge dent in the integrity of the Alliance. Criminal group pops up, Council and co. immediately level accusations of corruption, mass arrests, interrogations, Alliance get's smacked, lather, rinse, repeat.

It seems that clearly, the Alliance wasn't capable of policing itself. Either the Alliance was actively sheltering Cerberus or Cerberus was running rings around the Alliance's internal security. Hence, the perception is completely accurate and whatever happens to the Alliance because of it is very possibly totally warranted.

From the Turians' perspective - of course. They don't even need this whole Cerberus stuff to feel that way. But we're discussing Humans here, and Alliance's officers at that, and how they shouldn't sell out the Alliance to the Turians no matter what.

I think that in this case, the Alliance deserved its "selling out." It was either incompetent or treacherous itself.

Exactly.  Had Anderson not done anything, the infestation would've just gotten worse, until one of the other races eventually would take matters into their own hands.  Anderson showed that Cerberus hadn't been in too deep and that the Alliance weren't completely incompetent, and that now they could rebuild for the better.

History will prove that Anderson is a God amongst men, because he's the hero that humanity deserves, but not the one they need right now... and so Cerberus will hunt him... because he can take it... because he's not a hero... he's a silent guardian, a watchful protector... Captain Anderson.

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 02:06 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Zurcior wrote...

He didn't sellout the Alliance. He soldout Cerberus.

So that's why Udina and the brass were about to start an investigation?

And who did he do any good may I ask? Aside from triggering Grayson's rampage, nothing has been really achived, not even his self-hating goals. Cerberus will recover shortly, and with public ire and fear of the Turian revanche, the "unofficial" support from the Alliance, both "corrupt" government and the right-wing citizens, will only bolster Cerberus and it may come out of it even stronger in the end. Have you imagined what a show Terra Firma is going to perform in the wake of this whole affair?

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 02:15 .

[Shadow of Sparta]

i like anderson and i wouldn't kill him but i do agree that there would be pretty serious consequences as a result of his actions.even if the alien council races loses faith in humanity,who's to say that that faith can't be regained by shepards actions?

bros before foes

[nevar00]

DPSSOC wrote...
Exactly like that.  You stop a group like that certainly, repair the damage, but you don't blame them for the effect their actions had.  I grab a snake and the snake bites me it's my fault not theirs.  Cerberus does what it does, you stop it, punish it, but you don't complain that they made you look bad.

Okay I think we're going in circles here.  I agree with you, but at what point did Anderson "blame them for the effect their actions had"?  Again by doing what he did, he showed that:

- he isn't too prideful to look for help when he needs it
- the Alliance wasn't completely corrupt and can now work out its problems better without Cerberus mucking up the works
- humans can be trusted, and even moreso now that so much corruption was taken out.

Yeah I'm a bit sketchy on that too.

Alright... I thought you were implying that the Alliance had in fact created Cerberus and were now looking for help when their creation grew out of control.  My bad... but I hope Bioware at least settles this.

We've shown that in the past, we've asked for assistance before that's not an issue.  The issue is that what Anderson did destroys any credibility the Alliance had as a government, because from now on the other races can't be sure whether or not we've been infiltrated by a criminal organization.  As for what he could have done is pulled an Elliot Ness, gather what people you know you can trust and go to work.  Alternatively he could have done nothing and played along, always an option.

The Turians, at the very least, already knew about how far Cerberus had infiltrated the Alliance: that was my point.  You say that because the Alliance proved that Cerberus had infiltrated them, that they can no longer be trusted.  I am saying that the Turians already knew this and therefore could already not trust humanity (I think it's safe to say that both the Asari and Salarians also were aware, as if they weren't just outright discussing the problem they are generally more intelligent).  With what Anderson did, the Alliance can repair itself and its image in the galactic community.

As for him going to humans he trusted, that was the problem: there weren't any outside of Sanders.

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 02:22 .

[Zurcior]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

He didn't sellout the Alliance. He soldout Cerberus.

So that's why Udina and the brass were about to start an investigation?

And who did he do any good may I ask? Aside from triggering Grayson's rampage, nothing has been really achived, not even his self-hating goals. Cerberus will recover shortly, and with public ire and fear of the Turian revanche, the "unofficial" support from the Alliance, both "corrupt" government and the right-wing citizens, will only bolster Cerberus and it may come out of it even stronger in the end. Have you imagined what a show Terra Firma is going to perform in the wake of this whole affair?

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

 Are you interested in buying swampland? I can get you a good deal.

[Gabey5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...




And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

he was framed by Udina 

Modifié par Gabey5, 18 février 2011 - 02:34 .

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...
Okay I think we're going in circles here.  I agree with you, but at what point did Anderson "blame them for the effect their actions had"?  Again by doing what he did, he showed that:

- he isn't too prideful to look for help when he needs it
- the Alliance wasn't completely corrupt and can now work out its problems better without Cerberus mucking up the works
- humans can be trusted, and even moreso now that so much corruption was taken out.

He showed the exact opposite of that because it was Anderson who went to them, rather than the government.  Anderson's actions said, my government is too corrupt to work out their own problems, I'm the last good guy, please save us.  If Anderson had gone through official channels it would have been the Alliance asking the Turians for assistance, not the last uncorrupt official the Alliance has.  This would curb a lot of the backlash, as it stands the only human he's shown that can be trusted is himself, and there's only one of him I checked.

nevar00 wrote...
Actually you can thank TIM and Cerberus for all of that: you know, sneaking racist double agents in such high positions of power.  If anything, Anderson helped quiet down the mess that would have broken out when eventually some other race found out that Cerberus had so well infiltrated the Alliance.  At least with Anderson fixing things it can show the others that humanity still has control over things, and it can at least be kept somewhat quiet when it comes to how bad it was.

My "don't blame the snake" comment was with regards to the bolded part of this post, sorry for the confusion. 

nevar00 wrote...

We've shown that in the past, we've asked for assistance before that's not an issue.  The issue is that what Anderson did destroys any credibility the Alliance had as a government, because from now on the other races can't be sure whether or not we've been infiltrated by a criminal organization.  As for what he could have done is pulled an Elliot Ness, gather what people you know you can trust and go to work.  Alternatively he could have done nothing and played along, always an option.

The Turians, at the very least, already knew about how far Cerberus had infiltrated the Alliance: that was my point.  You say that because the Alliance proved that Cerberus had infiltrated them, that they can no longer be trusted.  I am saying that the Turians already knew this and therefore could already not trust humanity (I think it's safe to say that both the Asari and Salarians also were aware, as if they weren't just outright discussing the problem they are generally more intelligent).  With what Anderson did, the Alliance can repair itself and its image in the galactic community.

See above it isn't about whether or not they knew it's how they were approached for assistance.  If Udina, or the President, had approached the Turians it would have been different, it's the government acknowledging a problem beyond their control.  Anderson is just one man doing the right thing, that he felt he had to do it means the government never would have and so humans can't be trusted to look after their own affairs because Anderson is clearly the exception rather than the norm.

[DaVanguard]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

He didn't sellout the Alliance. He soldout Cerberus.

So that's why Udina and the brass were about to start an investigation?

And who did he do any good may I ask? Aside from triggering Grayson's rampage, nothing has been really achived, not even his self-hating goals. Cerberus will recover shortly, and with public ire and fear of the Turian revanche, the "unofficial" support from the Alliance, both "corrupt" government and the right-wing citizens, will only bolster Cerberus and it may come out of it even stronger in the end. Have you imagined what a show Terra Firma is going to perform in the wake of this whole affair?

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

Udina not cry OUTRAGE at even the smallest things blasphey

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

He didn't sellout the Alliance. He soldout Cerberus.

So that's why Udina and the brass were about to start an investigation?

And who did he do any good may I ask? Aside from triggering Grayson's rampage, nothing has been really achived, not even his self-hating goals. Cerberus will recover shortly, and with public ire and fear of the Turian revanche, the "unofficial" support from the Alliance, both "corrupt" government and the right-wing citizens, will only bolster Cerberus and it may come out of it even stronger in the end. Have you imagined what a show Terra Firma is going to perform in the wake of this whole affair?

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

There is considerable doubt that Pallin was corrupt at all, that read more like an Udina setup than guilt on Pallin's part. I suspect that it was more a case of removing an obstacle than bringing someone to justice.

[nevar00]

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]nevar00 wrote...
Okay I think we're going in circles here.  I agree with you, but at what point did Anderson "blame them for the effect their actions had"?  Again by doing what he did, he showed that:

- he isn't too prideful to look for help when he needs it
- the Alliance wasn't completely corrupt and can now work out its problems better without Cerberus mucking up the works
- humans can be trusted, and even moreso now that so much corruption was taken out.[/quote]

He showed the exact opposite of that because it was Anderson who went to them, rather than the government.  Anderson's actions said, my government is too corrupt to work out their own problems, I'm the last good guy, please save us.  If Anderson had gone through official channels it would have been the Alliance asking the Turians for assistance, not the last uncorrupt official the Alliance has.  This would curb a lot of the backlash, as it stands the only human he's shown that can be trusted is himself, and there's only one of him I checked.[/QUOTE]

Alright, now I see where you're coming from.  I agree, but unfortunately... he really didn't have a choice.  There really wasn't anyone else he could trust to not be with Cerberus... well maybe Udina, but I wouldn't trust him not to keep his mouth shut or to not have taken it seriously. 

He really only had two choices.  Either go to the Turians for help and get this problem cleaned up before it spread any further, or turn a blind eye and wait for another race (if not the entire Council) to act by themselves before everything became too out of hand.  At least this way it gives humanity a chance to fix up there government free of Cerberus corruption.  This way they still have a chance to win back the trust of the others; whereas if it had gotten too out of control that wouldn't really be the case.

[QUOTE][quote]nevar00 wrote...
Actually you can thank TIM and Cerberus for all of that: you know, sneaking racist double agents in such high positions of power.  If anything, Anderson helped quiet down the mess that would have broken out when eventually some other race found out that Cerberus had so well infiltrated the Alliance.  At least with Anderson fixing things it can show the others that humanity still has control over things, and it can at least be kept somewhat quiet when it comes to how bad it was.[/quote]


My "don't blame the snake" comment was with regards to the bolded part of this post, sorry for the confusion. [/QUOTE]

I gotcha.  Still TIM holds some of the blame, but yeah it's also the Alliance's fault for letting it get that bad.

[quote]nevar00 wrote...
[QUOTE]
We've shown that in the past, we've asked for assistance before that's not an issue.  The issue is that what Anderson did destroys any credibility the Alliance had as a government, because from now on the other races can't be sure whether or not we've been infiltrated by a criminal organization.  As for what he could have done is pulled an Elliot Ness, gather what people you know you can trust and go to work.  Alternatively he could have done nothing and played along, always an option.[/QUOTE]

The Turians, at the very least, already knew about how far Cerberus had infiltrated the Alliance: that was my point.  You say that because the Alliance proved that Cerberus had infiltrated them, that they can no longer be trusted.  I am saying that the Turians already knew this and therefore could already not trust humanity (I think it's safe to say that both the Asari and Salarians also were aware, as if they weren't just outright discussing the problem they are generally more intelligent).  With what Anderson did, the Alliance can repair itself and its image in the galactic community.[/quote]

See above it isn't about whether or not they knew it's how they were approached for assistance.  If Udina, or the President, had approached the Turians it would have been different, it's the government acknowledging a problem beyond their control.  Anderson is just one man doing the right thing, that he felt he had to do it means the government never would have and so humans can't be trusted to look after their own affairs because Anderson is clearly the exception rather than the norm.
[/quote]

As I said, I still say it's better to get this problem fixed before the damage became unrepairable.

By the way, couldn't Anderson be the senator?  If I remember correctly, they did a good job in Retribution with being unclear when it came to whether or not the Collector base was destroyed and who joined the Council.  I assume so that they don't mess up with each individual's canon.  So Anderson could be the Senator, and even if not he still is an ex-high ranking military official.  

[Bailyn242]

@Zulu,



The US has never fought a conventional war in Pakistan.



A more accurate parallel for the First Contact war would be the Russians in Afganistan or the US in Vietnam. In all of these cases the "Superpower" was never allowed to bring the full force of their power to bear against the enemy. The Council stopped the Turians before they could really take the war to the Humans.