502 réponses à ce sujet

[Bailyn242]

The senior human political figure in the Galaxy is Udina in the book and Anderson is his advisor on military and security issues. The correct parallel is the President and the National Security Advisor. The Systems Alliance Parliment is the Legislative Branch.

[nevar00]

Alright, I didn't recall them ever addressing that in the books. I kind of wish they hadn't messed with potential player canon, but ah well...

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...
Alright, now I see where you're coming from.  I agree, but unfortunately... he really didn't have a choice.  There really wasn't anyone else he could trust to not be with Cerberus... well maybe Udina, but I wouldn't trust him not to keep his mouth shut or to not have taken it seriously. 

He really only had two choices.  Either go to the Turians for help and get this problem cleaned up before it spread any further, or turn a blind eye and wait for another race (if not the entire Council) to act by themselves before everything became too out of hand.  At least this way it gives humanity a chance to fix up there government free of Cerberus corruption.  This way they still have a chance to win back the trust of the others; whereas if it had gotten too out of control that wouldn't really be the case.

As I pointed out earlier it's possible, and if TIM isn't stupid probable, that Cerberus could fake a cleaning house if it looked like the other races might take action.  That's not concrete however so setting that aside I think we have two very different ideas on how the Council behaves, yours being somewhat more forgiving than mine.

Humanity will never be trusted again, because what can be corrupted once can, and will, be corrupted again and the Alliance government clearly won't take necessary action to clean it up.  We've lost any credibility we might have had with the other races.  The Council will not give humanity another chance, any more than they gave the Quarians or Krogan (Batarians kind of left on their own).  By not allowing us to maintain the illusion that we could handle our own affairs Anderson has shown that humanity isn't fit for the position it's been given.  At best we'll be knocked off the Council and heavy restrictions placed on trade, defense, and research if they can manage it, and we will never recover.

nevar00 wrote...
By the way, couldn't Anderson be the senator?  If I remember correctly, they did a good job in Retribution with being unclear when it came to whether or not the Collector base was destroyed and who joined the Council.  I assume so that they don't mess up with each individual's canon.  So Anderson could be the Senator, and even if not he still is an ex-high ranking military official.  

I got the impression (really should read the book) that Anderson is just an Admiral from the discussions here.  Perhaps it's left vague whether he stepped down or was never chosen but that's it.

[DPSSOC]

Bailyn242 wrote...

The senior human political figure in the Galaxy is Udina in the book and Anderson is his advisor on military and security issues. The correct parallel is the President and the National Security Advisor. The Systems Alliance Parliment is the Legislative Branch.

Correct me if I'm wrong doesn't the Alliance have a president?  And if not who ran it before we had a Council seat?

[Zulu_DFA]

Gabey5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

he was framed by Udina 

Udina is kinda cool guy! Frames corupt Turainz and doesn't afraid of anything!!!

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

The senior human political figure in the Galaxy is Udina in the book and Anderson is his advisor on military and security issues. The correct parallel is the President and the National Security Advisor. The Systems Alliance Parliment is the Legislative Branch.

What happened to President Huerta?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 03:34 .

[Inverness Moon]

Bailyn242 wrote...

The point is that they are aware and have been aware for quite some time. TIM builds a house of cards with half truths and lies, at some point it has to come down.

You still have yet to provide evidence that TIM was aware of Liara's true intentions. Because of that, your claim about TIM lieing still remains baseless.

Your behavior and stance is not uncommon. I assume it comes from the fact that you don't like TIM for whatever reason and want to find more reasons to not like him without concern for the valididity of those reasons. In other words, you're immensely biased and it shows.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 février 2011 - 03:44 .

[nevar00]

DPSSOC wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
Alright, now I see where you're coming from.  I agree, but unfortunately... he really didn't have a choice.  There really wasn't anyone else he could trust to not be with Cerberus... well maybe Udina, but I wouldn't trust him not to keep his mouth shut or to not have taken it seriously. 

He really only had two choices.  Either go to the Turians for help and get this problem cleaned up before it spread any further, or turn a blind eye and wait for another race (if not the entire Council) to act by themselves before everything became too out of hand.  At least this way it gives humanity a chance to fix up there government free of Cerberus corruption.  This way they still have a chance to win back the trust of the others; whereas if it had gotten too out of control that wouldn't really be the case.

As I pointed out earlier it's possible, and if TIM isn't stupid probable, that Cerberus could fake a cleaning house if it looked like the other races might take action.  That's not concrete however so setting that aside I think we have two very different ideas on how the Council behaves, yours being somewhat more forgiving than mine.

Humanity will never be trusted again, because what can be corrupted once can, and will, be corrupted again and the Alliance government clearly won't take necessary action to clean it up.  We've lost any credibility we might have had with the other races.  The Council will not give humanity another chance, any more than they gave the Quarians or Krogan (Batarians kind of left on their own).  By not allowing us to maintain the illusion that we could handle our own affairs Anderson has shown that humanity isn't fit for the position it's been given.  At best we'll be knocked off the Council and heavy restrictions placed on trade, defense, and research if they can manage it, and we will never recover.

I wouldn't call the Council forgiving, but I still would have to say that as suave as TIM might be, there's no real way he could quietly take the Cerberus agents out of the Alliance government as (well for one thing many were visible politicians and couldn't really just "disappear") but mainly because, again, the Turians were already onto them.  Which also means so were the Asari and Salarians.  There was no good way out of this mess, and I still believe that by taking out the mess before it got worse was the right decision.

The situation is really not comparable to what happened to the Krogan and Quarians at all.  Humanities government was slowly being infiltrated by a terrorist organization that was taken out before it could do too much damage.  The Krogan tried to conquer the galaxy... yeah that's not really similiar.

The Quarians are a special case as they pretty much could have caused the destruction of all organic life... granted it was an accident, but still.  It may have been harsh but I can easily see why everyone was mad at them at the time.

And anyway, I'm pretty sure once Shepard helps destroy a threat as big as the Reapers, that will do a lot to repair the image of humanity. 

nevar00 wrote...
By the way, couldn't Anderson be the senator?  If I remember correctly, they did a good job in Retribution with being unclear when it came to whether or not the Collector base was destroyed and who joined the Council.  I assume so that they don't mess up with each individual's canon.  So Anderson could be the Senator, and even if not he still is an ex-high ranking military official.  

I got the impression (really should read the book) that Anderson is just an Admiral from the discussions here.  Perhaps it's left vague whether he stepped down or was never chosen but that's it.

Well apparently he wasn't the Senator... but regardless he was at the very least an honored and well-known military official.  It's not like he was just some random joe off the street, even if he wasn't a direct leader.

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 03:52 .

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...
I wouldn't call the Council forgiving, but I still would have to say that as suave as TIM might be, there's no real way he could quietly take the Cerberus agents out of the Alliance government as (well for one thing many were visible politicians and couldn't really just "disappear") but mainly because, again, the Turians were already onto them.  Which also means so were the Asari and Salarians.  There was no good way out of this mess, and I still believe that by taking out the mess before it got worse was the right decision.

...Cerberus would stage a massive bust cleaning out a few high ranking offiicials and big business men who would be sent to a classified location to be imprisoned when in reality they'd just be working within Cerberus proper now or recycled and released with fake ID's.  This shows that humanity is trying and making progress in cleaning their own house.  If we don't get everyone the Turians know about maybe our intelligence isn't as good as theirs (possibly compromised).  So the Turians, encouraged by the bust, gives the Alliance their list and they get cleaned out in the same way.  This way we appear to police ourselves, we still look like part of the community for accepting Turian aid, but the difference is we don't ask them to come in and do it for us.

Behold my plan to appease the aliens, and avoiding the damage that could be caused, while still saving face for humanity.  I thought this up in 5 minutes and I'm nowhere near as suave as TIM is supposed to be.

nevar00 wrote...
The situation is really not comparable to what happened to the Krogan and Quarians at all.

The Krogan and Quarian situations weren't comparable to each other at all either, but the response was the same.

nevar00 wrote...
And anyway, I'm pretty sure once Shepard helps destroy a threat as big as the Reapers, that will do a lot to repair the image of humanity.

Yes because rushing to the rescue did so much to improve the Council's attitude the last time.  They say that insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting different results.  I will defeat the Reapers cause it needs doing but I no longer hold any delusions that the Council will be grateful for, or even acknowledge, my work. 

nevar00 wrote...
Well apparently he wasn't the Senator... but regardless he was at the very least an honored and well-known military official.  It's not like he was just some random joe off the street, even if he wasn't a direct leader.

Yes it's not as bad as if some random slob had to do it (then we'd be really screwed), but it still reflects badly that he had to step outside official channels in order to clean out Cerberus.

[jbblue05]

Based off what Anderson did in Retribution I think these events should happen based on if youy saved the Council or let them die

Saved the Council-  The Alliance is suspended from the Council until the Turians investigation is complete..  Huge reduction of humans in C-Sec. The Alliance is not allowed to patrol  Ciradel Space.

Human-Led Council-  Alliance maintains seat on the Council.  Humans in C-sec are about the same.  The Turians and Alliance cold war "heats up" and they are on the brink of full-scale war.  Alien riots against humanity increase heavily.


Thanks alot Anderson.

[Zulu_DFA]

nevar00 wrote...

I wouldn't call the Council forgiving, but I still would have to say that as suave as TIM might be, there's no real way he could quietly take the Cerberus agents out of the Alliance government as (well for one thing many were visible politicians and couldn't really just "disappear") but mainly because, again, the Turians were already onto them.  Which also means so were the Asari and Salarians.  There was no good way out of this mess, and I still believe that by taking out the mess before it got worse was the right decision.

The "mess" existed only in Anderson's and other alien-loving heads. In reality, there was no mess, and everybody in the Alliance was happy with things just the way they were.

But after Anderson's actions there is a lot of mess indeed to sort out. Good thing TIM is alive, and that means we (the Human kind) have somebody to look after us, while Anderson is busy banging away Kahlee Sanders in the Turian Embassy.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 04:11 .

[Bailyn242]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

The point is that they are aware and have been aware for quite some time. TIM builds a house of cards with half truths and lies, at some point it has to come down.

You still have yet to provide evidence that TIM was aware of Liara's true intentions. Because of that, your claim about TIM lieing still remains baseless.

Your behavior and stance is not uncommon. I assume it comes from the fact that you don't like TIM for whatever reason and want to find more reasons to not like him without concern for the valididity of those reasons. In other words, you're immensely biased and it shows.

Actually the burden of proof is on you. TIM got Shepard's body from Liara and knows what happened in the redemption comic. Every piece of evidence in the game and comics supports me. Your nebulous theories and justifications are what has no supporting evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

Incorrect, I think that once he is properly leashed (something I have posted multiple times) he would be a great asset to humanity and the council as a whole. I certainly don't trust him but I don't hate him either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn, burden of proof always rests with the accuser, not the accused, in everything but the most regressive (or military) trials. In this case, you are the one accusing.

And no, the evidence in the game doesn't support you. You'd make a poor lawyer with such claims.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 18 février 2011 - 04:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nothing good for the Alliance leadership, possibly. For ordinary galactic citizens who now have less of a chance of getting scooped into Cerberus' maw of experimentation? I would say so.

If I were a galactic citizen, I'd be more worried about the STG neutering me, the Asari selling me deadly merchandise and/or contracting me into slavery, or the Turians waging a 'police action' against my species.

Any one of those is more likely than a Cerberus abduction. Come to that, so is getting hit by a car.

[Bailyn242]

Something to note when thinking about the Councillor's position vs an internal position within human government. So there is a President, he has no vote on the Council. He can influence that Council through his representative but canning the one man willing to go after corruption would send a clear message that humanity is hopelessly corrupt. Something even worse than implying that humanity needed help to clean up the corruption.

[Zurcior]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

The senior human political figure in the Galaxy is Udina in the book and Anderson is his advisor on military and security issues. The correct parallel is the President and the National Security Advisor. The Systems Alliance Parliment is the Legislative Branch.

What happened to President Huerta?

He's a zombie, remember?

 Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Come on Dean, that whitewash is really getting thin, it's running down the walls already and any rain will wash it completely away. LotSB dispels your claims in a single message from TIM.

"We are aware..."

Which comes at an indeterminate time well into ME2, and not at the start. The Lair of the Shadow Broker was written and released as a 'bridging DLC': a point after which Shepard already has the opportunity to talk to Liara (and, if played as Bridging DLC as designed, would actually be 'received' after being required to talk to Liara).

The point is that they are aware and have been aware for quite some time.

Objection! The assumption is not supported by the evidence.

No indication of any length of awareness is given: since Shepard's discussion with Liara? After Horizon? After the Suicide Mission? The time is indeterminate: it does not support claims as proof of knowledge before Freedom's Progress, when Shepard talked with TIM.

[Inverness Moon]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Actually the burden of proof is on you. TIM got Shepard's body from Liara and knows what happened in the redemption comic. Every piece of evidence in the game and comics supports me. Your nebulous theories and justifications are what has no supporting evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

You don't seem to know how burden of proof works. As Dean says, it rests on you. You are the one accusing TIM of lieing, therefore you have to provide evidence to support that claim. It's that simple.

Dean already quite thoroughly explained why the events of Redemption don't help your case.

Incorrect, I think that once he is properly leashed (something I have posted multiple times) he would be a great asset to humanity and the council as a whole. I certainly don't trust him but I don't hate him either.

If TIM was properly leashed, Shepard would probably still be dead, EDI might not have been created, and Cerberus might be ignoring the threat of the reapers like everyone else.

Edit:

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Objection!

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 février 2011 - 04:33 .

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn, burden of proof always rests with the accuser, not the accused, in everything but the most regressive (or military) trials. In this case, you are the one accusing.

And no, the evidence in the game doesn't support you. You'd make a poor lawyer with such claims.

We have repeatedly given the evidence that game has provided only to have that evidence ignored. Prove that this information is wrong with something that is in the game or books. The fact is that not one of you can. All you can do is provide word play to defend TIM's baldfaced lies.

Like to folks in Missouri say "Show Me".

We have proven that he definitely lied about the Collector Ship. This establishes the character of the man. When we return from that mission a message arrives in our inbox from Cerberus that "We are aware..." something directly contradictory to what he had previously told us. On top of this during the pre mission brief for the Collector ship mission TIM makes the bold statement "Information is my weapon..."

This clearly establishes two options when interpreting the data. Either TIM lied or that he really is incompetent when working with information. I suspect that it is the former since every other piece of information on Cerberus indicates that they are a highly professional group with a track record of getting the information that they need.

Simply stating prove it because you are the accuser is a transparent attempt to defend and undefensible position. Simple fact you don't even have as much circumstantial evidence as we have, let alone hard quotes from TIM himself as we have provided. You have nothing but your personal interpretation of what you think is going on in the character's head.

Nice try to deflect me but in court we would have presented our evidence and as the defense attorney you've just stood up and told the Jury, I have nothing but this is what I think happened. Outstanding job, your client will fry in a year.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Based off what Anderson did in Retribution I think these events should happen based on if youy saved the Council or let them die

Saved the Council-  The Alliance is suspended from the Council until the Turians investigation is complete..  Huge reduction of humans in C-Sec. The Alliance is not allowed to patrol  Ciradel Space.

Human-Led Council-  Alliance maintains seat on the Council.  Humans in C-sec are about the same.  The Turians and Alliance cold war "heats up" and they are on the brink of full-scale war.  Alien riots against humanity increase heavily.


Thanks alot Anderson.

Wrong.

Saved the Council - Anderson is the representative to the Council and take the action required to take out and remove the corruption. Humanities seat is strong and the Council races laud the efforts of the human representative who resigned to restore his people's name. Alliance Fleet gains the time to restore their fleet while the Council continues their 20 colony victory tour to thank the Alliance soldiers who saved them.

Human-led Council - Alliance and humans maintain their seats. Turian and Alliance relations remain stable and the use of the Turians demonstrates that this was not a coup and eases tensions between the races. Riots to occur between human extremists and their anti-human counterparts.

Well Done Dave.

[Inverness Moon]

Bailyn242 wrote...

We have repeatedly given the evidence that game has provided only to have that evidence ignored. Prove that this information is wrong with something that is in the game or books. The fact is that not one of you can. All you can do is provide word play to defend TIM's baldfaced lies.

Like to folks in Missouri say "Show Me".

We have proven that he definitely lied about the Collector Ship. This establishes the character of the man. When we return from that mission a message arrives in our inbox from Cerberus that "We are aware..." something directly contradictory to what he had previously told us. On top of this during the pre mission brief for the Collector ship mission TIM makes the bold statement "Information is my weapon..."

The events of the collector ship mission in no way prove TIM was lieing about Liara.

There is also the fact that I understand and agree with TIM's reasons for withholding information about that mission, even if I don't like being on the receiving end.

I can't really see the point to him lieing about Liara. Perhaps you could explain that to me?

This clearly establishes two options when interpreting the data. Either TIM lied or that he really is incompetent when working with information. I suspect that it is the former since every other piece of information on Cerberus indicates that they are a highly professional group with a track record of getting the information that they need.

Or, you know, his informant could be wrong (or lieing).

If we found out his informant was Nyxeris, for example, you'd be eating your words.

Simply stating prove it because you are the accuser is a transparent attempt to defend and undefensible position. Simple fact you don't even have as much circumstantial evidence as we have, let alone hard quotes from TIM himself as we have provided. You have nothing but your personal interpretation of what you think is going on in the character's head.

What we have is the pleasure of watching you try to claim TIM lied about Liara based on supposition.

[Bailyn242]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Actually the burden of proof is on you. TIM got Shepard's body from Liara and knows what happened in the redemption comic. Every piece of evidence in the game and comics supports me. Your nebulous theories and justifications are what has no supporting evidence, circumstantial or otherwise.

You don't seem to know how burden of proof works. As Dean says, it rests on you. You are the one accusing TIM of lieing, therefore you have to provide evidence to support that claim. It's that simple.

Dean already quite thoroughly explained why the events of Redemption don't help your case.

Incorrect, I think that once he is properly leashed (something I have posted multiple times) he would be a great asset to humanity and the council as a whole. I certainly don't trust him but I don't hate him either.

If TIM was properly leashed, Shepard would probably still be dead, EDI might not have been created, and Cerberus might be ignoring the threat of the reapers like everyone else.

Edit:

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Objection!

I will continue to ignore the false "Cerberus brought Shepard back" defense you continue to trot out. Repeating the same sad line does little to improve your defense. At least Dean and Zulu attempt to put together something thought out. I also never said anything about the past, I said NOW he needs to be put on a leash and the events of Retribution support my argument. Retribution was a Cerberus blunder on MANY levels.

By taking personal revenge on Grayson Cerberus triggered his broadcast of the information that leads to the raids. Don't go after Grayson and all his research goes on undisturbed.

By taking personal revenge on Grayson TIM oversees the operation in person and is nearly captured in the action. The end result is that his secure base has to be moved to protect against further leaks.

Personal oversight of the research and the raids lead to Reaper avatar escaping and managing to raid all Alliance Biotic information to the Reapers.

While this has yet to happen it has created a situation that once Aria learns that her daughter was killed by Cerberus there might be a major player personally hunting Cerberus in regions where they used to be able to act with relative impunity. This one is a personal theory not in evidence yet and before you point to her working with TIM at the end of the novel she has yet to review the data that would reveal their connection to the abduction of Grayson.

Put a leash on him - hope its the next DLC.

 By the way, establishing the credibility of someone is critical in determining the veracity of his claims. By demonstrating that he lied and quoting him confirming the lie everything that he has said has to be questioned. If you choose to continue the believe a liar after they have lied to you is your own mistake.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 18 février 2011 - 04:54 .

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Based off what Anderson did in Retribution I think these events should happen based on if youy saved the Council or let them die

Saved the Council-  The Alliance is suspended from the Council until the Turians investigation is complete..  Huge reduction of humans in C-Sec. The Alliance is not allowed to patrol  Ciradel Space.

Human-Led Council-  Alliance maintains seat on the Council.  Humans in C-sec are about the same.  The Turians and Alliance cold war "heats up" and they are on the brink of full-scale war.  Alien riots against humanity increase heavily.


Thanks alot Anderson.

Wrong.

Saved the Council - Anderson is the representative to the Council and take the action required to take out and remove the corruption. Humanities seat is strong and the Council races laud the efforts of the human representative who resigned to restore his people's name. Alliance Fleet gains the time to restore their fleet while the Council continues their 20 colony victory tour to thank the Alliance soldiers who saved them.

Human-led Council - Alliance and humans maintain their seats. Turian and Alliance relations remain stable and the use of the Turians demonstrates that this was not a coup and eases tensions between the races. Riots to occur between human extremists and their anti-human counterparts.

Well Done Dave.

Anderson quits on the Council  Humanities seat on the original Council is minor its more of a symbol, the Alliance isn't really at the big kids table yet.  All the good the Alliance did in ME1 is bing torn the shreds because of Anderson and the Turians

The Turians and Alliance aren't stable in ME2 their in a cold war The Turians arresteing high-ranking alliance officials to undisclosed locations  could be the boiling point..

Turians aren't diplomatic

Well done Dave  Wow you have your paragon goggles on tight

[DPSSOC]

Bailyn242 wrote...
Put a leash on him - hope its the next DLC.

No, partly because I hope the next DLC is VS (probably not but I can hope).  Mainly however the only reason Cerberus get's any results at all, even with the collosal failures, is because they can act without restriction.  Put a leash on TIM and he becomes useless.  Even if the restrictions placed on him didn't kill any potential use he might be, how exactly do you propose to make him help the Council?  Torture?  Drugs?  Will you hunt down and threaten his loved ones (assuming he has any)?  How far are you willing to go to force a man to work against his will?

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Based off what Anderson did in Retribution I think these events should happen based on if youy saved the Council or let them die

Saved the Council-  The Alliance is suspended from the Council until the Turians investigation is complete..  Huge reduction of humans in C-Sec. The Alliance is not allowed to patrol  Ciradel Space.

Human-Led Council-  Alliance maintains seat on the Council.  Humans in C-sec are about the same.  The Turians and Alliance cold war "heats up" and they are on the brink of full-scale war.  Alien riots against humanity increase heavily.


Thanks alot Anderson.

Wrong.

Saved the Council - Anderson is the representative to the Council and take the action required to take out and remove the corruption. Humanities seat is strong and the Council races laud the efforts of the human representative who resigned to restore his people's name. Alliance Fleet gains the time to restore their fleet while the Council continues their 20 colony victory tour to thank the Alliance soldiers who saved them.

Human-led Council - Alliance and humans maintain their seats. Turian and Alliance relations remain stable and the use of the Turians demonstrates that this was not a coup and eases tensions between the races. Riots to occur between human extremists and their anti-human counterparts.

Well Done Dave.

Anderson quits on the Council  Humanities seat on the original Council is minor its more of a symbol, the Alliance isn't really at the big kids table yet.  All the good the Alliance did in ME1 is bing torn the shreds because of Anderson and the Turians

The Turians and Alliance aren't stable in ME2 their in a cold war The Turians arresteing high-ranking alliance officials to undisclosed locations  could be the boiling point..

Turians aren't diplomatic

Well done Dave  Wow you have your paragon goggles on tight

Not at tightly as your Cerberus blinders.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 18 février 2011 - 05:01 .