502 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not at tightly as your Cerberus blinders.

I prefer pro-human goggles

[Bailyn242]

DPSSOC wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...
Put a leash on him - hope its the next DLC.

No, partly because I hope the next DLC is VS (probably not but I can hope).  Mainly however the only reason Cerberus get's any results at all, even with the collosal failures, is because they can act without restriction.  Put a leash on TIM and he becomes useless.  Even if the restrictions placed on him didn't kill any potential use he might be, how exactly do you propose to make him help the Council?  Torture?  Drugs?  Will you hunt down and threaten his loved ones (assuming he has any)?  How far are you willing to go to force a man to work against his will?

I'd get him to work woth the Council the same way he got Sjepard to work with him in the first place. Deal with the real threat. We can take care of the rest later.

I'm expecting that the VS DLC will be to resolve the Cerberus / Alliance issues. What makes more sense than Shepard bringing Cerberus into the fold to assist in combating the Reapers. Once Shepard gets the Council on board they will be willing to use Cerberus to stop them. The council ain't flawless but they can't ignore the contributions that TIM would bring. Kinda like the German scientists recruited post WWII by the Russians and Americans.

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not at tightly as your Cerberus blinders.

I prefer pro-human goggles

Don't kid yourself, they're Cerberus blinders. Humanity is too small to ever achieve what you want.

[Zulu_DFA]

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

[Sajuro]

jbblue05 wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Not at tightly as your Cerberus blinders.

I prefer pro-human goggles

So they are the same thing as beer goggles? that explains a lot

[Xilizhra]

DPSSOC wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...
Put a leash on him - hope its the next DLC.

No, partly because I hope the next DLC is VS (probably not but I can hope).  Mainly however the only reason Cerberus get's any results at all, even with the collosal failures, is because they can act without restriction.  Put a leash on TIM and he becomes useless.  Even if the restrictions placed on him didn't kill any potential use he might be, how exactly do you propose to make him help the Council?  Torture?  Drugs?  Will you hunt down and threaten his loved ones (assuming he has any)?  How far are you willing to go to force a man to work against his will?

No need. If he really wants to defeat the Reapers above all, then he'll happily work with the Council if that's what's necessary.

[Zulu_DFA]

Oh, look, the Reapers are back in the picture....



So how about the utter moronity of attacking the only organization you know to be taking proactive action against the Reapers? Shouldn't you be instead joining forces with it, Dave?

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

Click on Alliance for the link. Scroll down to administration government.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 18 février 2011 - 06:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

Click on Alliance for the link. Scroll down to administration government.

Source where Wiki got it from?

To clarify. There is nothing that precludes the Alliance from having a Prime Minister and a President. In ME1 Huerta was clearly the Alliance's President. Then this CDN stuff came up, and many people now think that he is the USNA President, because the protests were mainly in the USNA. But then there would have been no reason for the Systems Aliance jury to get into the picture, since Earth's nations are sovereign. And the Alliance is independent of Earth.

Actually, Wiki is correct: the Prime Minister is the head of Government. It only forgets to mention that the President is the head of State.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[silent_key]

Bailyn242 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...
Put a leash on him - hope its the next DLC.

No, partly because I hope the next DLC is VS (probably not but I can hope).  Mainly however the only reason Cerberus get's any results at all, even with the collosal failures, is because they can act without restriction.  Put a leash on TIM and he becomes useless.  Even if the restrictions placed on him didn't kill any potential use he might be, how exactly do you propose to make him help the Council?  Torture?  Drugs?  Will you hunt down and threaten his loved ones (assuming he has any)?  How far are you willing to go to force a man to work against his will?

I'd get him to work woth the Council the same way he got Sjepard to work with him in the first place. Deal with the real threat. We can take care of the rest later.

I'm expecting that the VS DLC will be to resolve the Cerberus / Alliance issues. What makes more sense than Shepard bringing Cerberus into the fold to assist in combating the Reapers. Once Shepard gets the Council on board they will be willing to use Cerberus to stop them. The council ain't flawless but they can't ignore the contributions that TIM would bring. Kinda like the German scientists recruited post WWII by the Russians and Americans.

I see no reason why Ceberus/TIM wouldn't work with the Alliance to fight the reapers, but never for them.  He enjoys his position way too much to relinquish any control.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Oh, look, the Reapers are back in the picture....

So how about the utter moronity of attacking the only organization you know to be taking proactive action against the Reapers? Shouldn't you be instead joining forces with it, Dave?

Nope, taking/capturing its resources and putting a leash on its ability to experiment on the people you are supposed to protect is a pretty good idea. He knows that they worked with Shepard to stop the Collector attacks and that Shepard had succeeded. The book leaves it vague about what Shepard was doing by then but the beginning of the book makes it clear that Shepard was no longer working with TIM. 

The only other things he knows about Cerberus revolve around horrifying experiments on a variety of races (including humans) and other nefarious deeds. What was in the information Grayson sent? Was it worse? 

If Cerberus was making plans to topple governing figures would it be wise to let them play just because they were targeting Turians or Asari and not humans? What about the chaos that would engender? Is it wise to leave a destabilizing influence to run wild with Reapers on the horizon?

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

Click on Alliance for the link. Scroll down to administration government.

Source where Wiki got it from?

To clarify. There is nothing that precludes the Alliance from having a Prime Minister and a President. In ME1 Huerta was clearly the Alliance's President. Then this CDN stuff came up, and many people now think that he is the USNA President, because the protests were mainly in the USNA. But then there would have been no reason for the Systems Aliance jury to get into the picture, since Earth's nations are sovereign. And the Alliance is independent of Earth.

Actually, Wiki is correct: the Prime Minister is the head of Government. It only forgets to mention that the President is the head of State.

Ahh, That explains it. You know, I can't understand the flap here guys. All it would take to stop the perceptions that Humanity can't take care of internal security would be the President backing his play.

"My man did what he had to to ensure that the terrorists were brought to justice."

"We knew that there were leaks. The most effective way to pull this off was to use people we could be certain weren't on the take."

Then back it up to the hilt with a very public house cleaning. It demonstrates to the Galactics and your own people that it was nothing more than a mob raid. You just used cops from the next precinct.

I know, the Reapers are coming. So, from the book it doesn't sound like the Alliance lost 1000 of the brightest minds when the raid went through. They lost a couple hundred at worst and many of them weren't the best and brightest. Sure, some will spin it one way or another alien and human media alike but they would have a hard time gaining traction against a cohesive house cleaning that started with a raid, a very effective raid.

Modifié par Bailyn242, 18 février 2011 - 07:21 .

[Arijharn]

Bailyn242 wrote...
So you would prefer to remain an infantile race than a responsible one? Tell me how he could have resolved this dilemma without outside help?

No, I'm saying that the timeframe of when Anderson did his deed was what made it stupid. I'm also pretty sure there could be 'incorruptable' elements within the Alliance and by carefully monitoring the information they have, then they can start to paint a picture of who the leaks are and what to do about it, even if it was character-assassination.

Asking for help from your allies is all well and good, but Anderson didn't even try to do it otherwise, he gave up and said: "I can't trust anyone... bar Kahlee..." and went to the Turian's.

Hell, even hiring mercenaries to do the deed is more preferable than using the Turian's, because just by the perceptions of other species, most notably the ones on the Council it basically says: "We aren't good enough." Even if you think that has a degree of truth, Humanity would lose more than it would gain imo, because if they start suspecting that Cerberus has it's hand in all the pies that Humanity offers, then there is no way that good can come out of it.

Bailyn242 wrote...
He couldn't, unfortunately you and your allies don't want to admit that anything needed to be resolved. I bet money that you would if they strapped you to a table and started cutting.<_<

TIM is not humanity and neither is Cerberus.

Yes of course, I must obviously think that Cerberus does no wrong, despite the fact that I have repeatedly stated that I don't completely trust them, but no, go ahead... ignore this caveat if it's too inconvenient -- like usual.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Oh, look, the Reapers are back in the picture....

So how about the utter moronity of attacking the only organization you know to be taking proactive action against the Reapers? Shouldn't you be instead joining forces with it, Dave?

Nope, taking/capturing its resources and putting a leash on its ability to experiment on the people you are supposed to protect is a pretty good idea. He knows that they worked with Shepard to stop the Collector attacks and that Shepard had succeeded. The book leaves it vague about what Shepard was doing by then but the beginning of the book makes it clear that Shepard was no longer working with TIM.

Capturing Cerberus resources, means that some of those resources are going to be destroyed (just as it pretty much happens). Raised political tensions in the wake of Turians' raids on Human installations aren't going to help either. And the book isn't clear about Shepard not working with TIM. It just says TIM has no current assignment for Shepard.

Bailyn242 wrote...

The only other things he knows about Cerberus revolve around horrifying experiments on a variety of races (including humans) and other nefarious deeds. What was in the information Grayson sent? Was it worse? 

Which is totally irrelevant at the moment, as Cerberus is the only faction taking proactive action to counter the Reaper threat. Any kind of "evil experiments" is better than assured galaxy-wide extinction.

Bailyn242 wrote...
If Cerberus was making plans to topple governing figures would it be wise to let them play just because they were targeting Turians or Asari and not humans? What about the chaos that would engender? Is it wise to leave a destabilizing influence to run wild with Reapers on the horizon?

Even Citadel's own analysts have come to conclusion that Cerberus has shifted it's modus operandi and suspended its "terrorist" activities in the last couple of years. The "chaos" was succesfully created by Anderson though, when he cast all reason aside to pursue his personal goal.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

Click on Alliance for the link. Scroll down to administration government.

Source where Wiki got it from?

To clarify. There is nothing that precludes the Alliance from having a Prime Minister and a President. In ME1 Huerta was clearly the Alliance's President. Then this CDN stuff came up, and many people now think that he is the USNA President, because the protests were mainly in the USNA. But then there would have been no reason for the Systems Aliance jury to get into the picture, since Earth's nations are sovereign. And the Alliance is independent of Earth.

Actually, Wiki is correct: the Prime Minister is the head of Government. It only forgets to mention that the President is the head of State.

It is what it is now retconned or not. Most parliamentary systems I've seen have a Prime Minister rather than a President. 

[Sigh.]

[social science class]
All states have a head of state. Prime minister is never the head of state. If it's a republic, it has a president. If it's a monarchy, it has a monarch. For instance, the Head of State of Canada and Australia is Elizabeth II, aka Queen of England. Now, does the Systems Alliance have a king? I suppose not. Then it has a president. If it's anything like France's political system, the President is quite an important figure. If it's like Germany's system, then the President is mostly symbolic (pretty much like the British Queen), but he is still there.
[/social science class]

Piece of advice: stop showing your ignorance, dude.

Or maybe you need a break? If so, go ahead, you ain't gonna impress nobody with your trolling here anyway.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 07:34 .

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Oh, look, the Reapers are back in the picture....

So how about the utter moronity of attacking the only organization you know to be taking proactive action against the Reapers? Shouldn't you be instead joining forces with it, Dave?

Nope, taking/capturing its resources and putting a leash on its ability to experiment on the people you are supposed to protect is a pretty good idea. He knows that they worked with Shepard to stop the Collector attacks and that Shepard had succeeded. The book leaves it vague about what Shepard was doing by then but the beginning of the book makes it clear that Shepard was no longer working with TIM.

Capturing Cerberus resources, means that some of those resources are going to be destroyed (just as it pretty much happens). Raised political tensions in the wake of Turians' raids on Human installations aren't going to help either. And the book isn't clear about Shepard not working with TIM. It just says TIM has no current assignment for Shepard.

Bailyn242 wrote...

The only other things he knows about Cerberus revolve around horrifying experiments on a variety of races (including humans) and other nefarious deeds. What was in the information Grayson sent? Was it worse? 

Which is totally irrelevant at the moment, as Cerberus is the only faction taking proactive action to counter the Reaper threat. Any kind of "evil experiments" is better than assured galaxy-wide extinction.

Bailyn242 wrote...
If Cerberus was making plans to topple governing figures would it be wise to let them play just because they were targeting Turians or Asari and not humans? What about the chaos that would engender? Is it wise to leave a destabilizing influence to run wild with Reapers on the horizon?

Even Citadel's own analysts have come to conclusion that Cerberus has shifted it's modus operandi and suspended its "terrorist" activities in the last couple of years. The "chaos" was succesfully created by Anderson though, when he cast all reason aside to pursue his personal goal.

First off, sorry about the edit after you had quoted, I had accidentally posted that before I was done with it.

Must have missed that the Citadel's own analysts had noted that (reference plz?) but then out of the blue they started up again when they hit Grayson as far I could interpret Anderson knew.

Their experiments into the Reapers have had mixed results at best. There are two actions that I can point to that were resounding successes, Project Lazarus and Jacob's career moment. Everything else has had pretty nasty results. Seriously his research has given us nothing to use against this threat. If all he was doing was gathering information and discrediting politicians who want to ignore the Reapers I wouldn't have a problem with him but his experiments and research teams (other than Lazarus) have been abject failures. 

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

Anyway, isn't the Alliance and Earth governments seperate?

Yes, and Huerta is the President of the Alliance.

The Alliance is governed by a Parliament and a Prime Minister. 

Source?

Click on Alliance for the link. Scroll down to administration government.

Source where Wiki got it from?

To clarify. There is nothing that precludes the Alliance from having a Prime Minister and a President. In ME1 Huerta was clearly the Alliance's President. Then this CDN stuff came up, and many people now think that he is the USNA President, because the protests were mainly in the USNA. But then there would have been no reason for the Systems Aliance jury to get into the picture, since Earth's nations are sovereign. And the Alliance is independent of Earth.

Actually, Wiki is correct: the Prime Minister is the head of Government. It only forgets to mention that the President is the head of State.

It is what it is now retconned or not. Most parliamentary systems I've seen have a Prime Minister rather than a President. 

[Sigh.]

[social science class]
All states have a head of state. Prime minister is never the head of state. If it's a republic, it has a president. If it's a monarchy, it has a monarch. For instance, the Head of State of Canada and Australia is Elizabeth II, aka Queen of England. Now, does the Systems Alliance have a king? I suppose not. Then it has a president. If it's anything like France's political system, the President is quite an important figure. If it's like Germany's system, then the President is mostly symbolic (pretty much like the British Queen), but he is still there.
[/social science class]

Piece of advice: stop showing your ignorance, dude.

Or maybe you need a break? If so, go ahead, you ain't gonna impress nobody with your trolling here anyway.

sigh

All the head of State does in either of those nations is rubber stamp whatever the Prime Minister and Parliament pass into law.

Be arrogant all you want but the Governor General rarely does more than that and just FYI that's Canada's Head of State since Trudeau's time but I'll admit that's an ongoing debate.

Couple of notes, effective head of state in most systems is the Prime Minister, France is the most notable exception. So by saying "most Parliamentary Systems I was not being ignorant". I wasn't trolling but rather enjoying the debate. Even attempting to be somewhat polite and I get greeted with "show your ignorance". Nicely done sir.

I took social studies too.

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

Must have missed that the Citadel's own analysts had noted that (reference plz?)

ME2, in-game Codex, article "Illusive Man".

Bailyn242 wrote...

but then out of the blue they started up again when they hit Grayson as far I could interpret Anderson knew.

And who is Grayson? Ah, yes, a former drug addict and Cerberus operative, now serving as an enforcer to the drug dealing "Pirate Queen of Omega". I'd suppose one should be commended for taking out such a guy.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Their experiments into the Reapers have had mixed results at best. There are two actions that I can point to that were resounding successes, Project Lazarus and Jacob's career moment. Everything else has had pretty nasty results. Seriously his research has given us nothing to use against his threat. If all he was doing was gathering information and discrediting politicians who want to ignore the Reapers I wouldn't have a problem with him but his experiments and research teams (other than Lazarus) have been abject failures. 

Which was (a) nothing of Anderson's business, ( the best and the only anti-Reaper effort so far.

Bailyn242 wrote...

All the head of State does in either of those nations is rubber stamp whatever the Prime Minister and Parliament pass into law.

We've been talking about existence of such a figure not its function.

Now, let's see. You stated that Udina was the Alliance's top honcho, were proven wrong, and backtracked to the absolutely irrelevant to this thread subject of the existence of the Alliance's President.

You said, the Alliance wouldn't have a president, because it's got parliament and prime minister. Proven wrong, you now try to tell me that presidents generally suck, while totally ignoring my point about France's system.

Just as you've been ignoring in your every post the main point against Anderson - that his actions, even with all allegiances put aside, had only diminishing returns (and very much predictably so). The Turian strike against Cerberus FAILED, as the primary objective (TIM's neutralization) was not achieved. Grayson (the primary reason of all this mess) could not have been saved in any case. But being Reaper-possesed, he datamined the Ascension Project. Human-Turian political tensions are probably at their highest since the FCW. Cerberus, that has actively worked to counter the Reaper threat, is now temporarily under strenght. And nothing of this would have happened, if Anderson had just sit tight on his ass and drunk another bottle of vodka.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[Arijharn]

Couldn't Anderson wait to start his witch-hunt for Cerberus cells and neutralize TIM until after the Reapers have been and gone? I mean, say what you will about Cerberus, but they still have resources and you may as well make use of them if you need them if the Reapers are arriving en masse.



For some reason this is making me think of Starcraft. "Oh no, I can't accept that lift from you! You're the dastardly Sons of Korhal! TERRORISTS! My men may die to the zerg, but it's okay because they'll die as men!"

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Couldn't Anderson wait to start his witch-hunt for Cerberus cells and neutralize TIM until after the Reapers have been and gone? I mean, say what you will about Cerberus, but they still have resources and you may as well make use of them if you need them if the Reapers are arriving en masse.

He did it for [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie].

[STG]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Couldn't Anderson wait to start his witch-hunt for Cerberus cells and neutralize TIM until after the Reapers have been and gone? I mean, say what you will about Cerberus, but they still have resources and you may as well make use of them if you need them if the Reapers are arriving en masse.

He did it for [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie].

Actually he did it because Bioware needs to sell merchandise instead of keeping characters consistent.

[Arijharn]

lol, you can be more cynical than even me! I'm actually quite impressed.

[Wulfram]

"According to the United North American States' line of succession, if Huerta was considered dead, then power would transfer to the Vice President and Speaker Ford would have held the position of Vice President for the last year.”



If he was President of the Alliance, the UNAS' line of succession wouldn't matter?