502 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramus Quaritch]

Anderson went to the Turians to maintain operational security. He knew that Cerberus had people (potentially) high up in the Alliance. If he sent the Alliance to attack all of those Cerberus space stations, then the moles would tip the Illusive Man off. Getting the Turians to do it was the best way and it was very effective. I'm from the U.S. and the U.S. has done this plenty of times. We didn't kill Che Guevara directly. We helped the Bolivians do it.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. Top Alliance officials support the organisation with information and money to further Alliance goals. That is made obvious. The fact he had to go to a different government in order to hurt Cerberus is proof of this. How good is the Alliance is open for debate though. He is perfectly justified in taking down a corrupt government if he feels that way, but remember the seperation of Cerberus and the Alliance is only for deniability.

And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Admiral Kahoku would disagree.  As wouldKahoku's marines who were killed by a Thresher Maw when they answered the distress beacon Cerberus set up.  If Shepard is a sole survivor then it is revealed that Cerberus set up the massacre of Shepard's team on Akhuze as well.  And then there was the experiment that turned an entire colony to husks in ME1 (during a side quest).  Cerberus did that too.  They are an extremist group in every way.

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 14 février 2011 - 03:15 .

[azarhal]

Denize wrote...

Paul Grayson sent information to Kahlee Sanders and David Anderson. Read Retribution novel, if you want more details.

Thanks.

[rma2110]

Honestly, Anderson did what he thought best. I can't fault him for that. But if what he did gets in the way of my defeating the reapers then my renegade will make him pay for all the lives his idealism cost.

[Vaenier]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. Top Alliance officials support the organisation with information and money to further Alliance goals. That is made obvious. The fact he had to go to a different government in order to hurt Cerberus is proof of this. How good is the Alliance is open for debate though. He is perfectly justified in taking down a corrupt government if he feels that way, but remember the seperation of Cerberus and the Alliance is only for deniability.

And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Admiral Kahoku would disagree.  As wouldKahoku's marines who were killed by a Thresher Maw when they answered the distress beacon Cerberus set up.  If Shepard is a sole survivor then it is revealed that Cerberus set up the massacre of Shepard's team on Akhuze as well.  And then there was the experiment that turned an entire colony to husks in ME1 (during a side quest).  Cerberus did that too.  They are an extremist group in every way.

Thank you. Extremist yes. Terrorist no. There is a difference.

Their methods are extreme, but their goals are not terror.

[lovgreno]

Anderson have a lot of allies, Cerberus only have enemies.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Vaenier wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. Top Alliance officials support the organisation with information and money to further Alliance goals. That is made obvious. The fact he had to go to a different government in order to hurt Cerberus is proof of this. How good is the Alliance is open for debate though. He is perfectly justified in taking down a corrupt government if he feels that way, but remember the seperation of Cerberus and the Alliance is only for deniability.

And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Admiral Kahoku would disagree.  As wouldKahoku's marines who were killed by a Thresher Maw when they answered the distress beacon Cerberus set up.  If Shepard is a sole survivor then it is revealed that Cerberus set up the massacre of Shepard's team on Akhuze as well.  And then there was the experiment that turned an entire colony to husks in ME1 (during a side quest).  Cerberus did that too.  They are an extremist group in every way.

Thank you. Extremist yes. Terrorist no. There is a difference.

Their methods are extreme, but their goals are not terror.

True.  They do not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 14 février 2011 - 03:28 .

[Whatever42]

rma2110 wrote...

Honestly, Anderson did what he thought best. I can't fault him for that. But if what he did gets in the way of my defeating the reapers then my renegade will make him pay for all the lives his idealism cost.

Yup. If Anderson's idealism threatens the galaxy in any way, my Shepard will bury him without hesitation.

[Barquiel]

Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, at least officially. Turians are our allies. Anderson did nothing wrong.

[Whatever42]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

[Whatever42]

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, at least officially. Turians are our allies. Anderson did nothing wrong.

So if an American general asked French to blow up a rogue CIA operation, the U.S. government would be fine with that?

[Vaenier]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.

lol, godwin.

Are you sure they are for humans as a species or humans as a government [ak the Alliance], because Mass Effect makes them the same thing. Everything in the Galaxy is divided by race, because Bioware likes to keep everyone seperate by physical apperance. So, we know Cerberus works for the Alliance, does it not make sense that their goals are to increase the power of the Alliance itself, not humans in general? I really wish Bioware would make factions and not just divide by races. It would be alot more interesting.

lol, assassination. That is a valid strategy used by multiple first world governments. It is still used. That is the whole point of creating a "rogue group" plausable deniability. If anything, that was probably one of the reasons the Alliance created it for in the first place.

[Barquiel]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, at least officially. Turians are our allies. Anderson did nothing wrong.

So if an American general asked French to blow up a rogue CIA operation, the U.S. government would be fine with that?

If your rogue CIA cell is responsible for the death of american citizens, soldiers, generals,...yes - I think they would be fine with that.

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 février 2011 - 03:34 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

They operate in small, individual cells, with each cell not knowing the others.  This means that if one cell gets caught then they can't give away the others.  It also provides legal protection as they can say that those particular individuals went rogue and do not represent the whole organization.  That's the lone wolf strategy and the Ku Klux Klan operates like that to a tee.  Yes they have a national organization, but the ones who do the killing and the terrorizing operate as lone wolves.  The KKK believe in white supremacy.  Cerberus is a human supremacist organization.  They are also similar in that they have been rejected by the majority of society, which is why they are an extremist group in the first place.  If the Alliance accepted Cerberus and its goals and methods, then it would not be an extremist group.  The same with the KKK.  The KKK of the 1920's was "technically" (and this is sadly true) not an extremist group because the vast majority of America in the 1920's accepted the Klan's anti-immigration views and KKK members even openly held public office.  The founding of Cerberus, with the Illusive Man calling for a "Cerberus" to protect humanity against the aliens is very similar to the founding of the KKK.  The KKK were founded to protect the way of life of whites against the blacks after the Civil War (it's bull****, but that's why they started).  That was their justification  Psychologically, both Cerberus and the KKK viewed the "other race" as a threat to their  way of life and will take any measures to defend what they view as their way of life.  In summary, they are similar.

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 14 février 2011 - 03:45 .

[Whatever42]

Barquiel wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, at least officially. Turians are our allies. Anderson did nothing wrong.

So if an American general asked French to blow up a rogue CIA operation, the U.S. government would be fine with that?

If your rogue CIA cell is responsible for the death of american citizens, soldiers, generals,...yes - I think they would be fine with that.

I think you underestimate how much countries value their sovereignty. An officer of your military goes behind the back of the military and government to a foreign government and requests that they attack citizens of your country would be treason. Even if they didn't make a public deal of it for political reasons, that officer would tossed on his ass.

[Ramus Quaritch]

Vaenier wrote...

Are you sure they are for humans as a species or humans as a government [ak the Alliance], because Mass Effect makes them the same thing. Everything in the Galaxy is divided by race, because Bioware likes to keep everyone seperate by physical apperance. So, we know Cerberus works for the Alliance, does it not make sense that their goals are to increase the power of the Alliance itself, not humans in general? I really wish Bioware would make factions and not just divide by races. It would be alot more interesting.

I agree with you that there should be factions or nations that have multiple races.  I wish we saw more of the Hanar and the Drell together.  As for humanity vs. the alliance, Miranda has referred multiple times to Cerberus forwarding the interests of humanity.  The Illusive Man also makes a similar statement.  

[Ramus Quaritch]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, at least officially. Turians are our allies. Anderson did nothing wrong.

So if an American general asked French to blow up a rogue CIA operation, the U.S. government would be fine with that?

If your rogue CIA cell is responsible for the death of american citizens, soldiers, generals,...yes - I think they would be fine with that.

I think you underestimate how much countries value their sovereignty. An officer of your military goes behind the back of the military and government to a foreign government and requests that they attack citizens of your country would be treason. Even if they didn't make a public deal of it for political reasons, that officer would tossed on his ass.

The difference, though, is that Anderson is (depending on your choices) either the human councilor or the equivalent of a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.  He would have the authority to do that (especially if he is the councilor).  Anderson was also operating under the view that Cerberus has done illegal activities (which they had) and therefore taking them down was justified.  

Modifié par Ramus Quaritch, 14 février 2011 - 03:47 .

[JustValiant]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

I think if it would fit in their plans (at least those of TIM) they would assassinate, terrorize and experiment on other races without hesitation. 

[Vaenier]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Are you sure they are for humans as a species or humans as a government [ak the Alliance], because Mass Effect makes them the same thing. Everything in the Galaxy is divided by race, because Bioware likes to keep everyone seperate by physical apperance. So, we know Cerberus works for the Alliance, does it not make sense that their goals are to increase the power of the Alliance itself, not humans in general? I really wish Bioware would make factions and not just divide by races. It would be alot more interesting.

I agree with you that there should be factions or nations that have multiple races.  I wish we saw more of the Hanar and the Drell together.  As for humanity vs. the alliance, Miranda has referred multiple times to Cerberus forwarding the interests of humanity.  The Illusive Man also makes a similar statement.  

I know their statements, but my point still stands. When you refer to the Turian government as an organisation, you just call it the Turians. Same goes for every other government in the galaxy. Humans are the only ones with a special name. But they could be called by just humanity also like everyone else.

Also, Cerberus does not hate other aliens, nor do they try anything to hurt them. All they do is try to make the Alliance stronger. Everything they have done is to either make Alliance military stronger, or to get the Alliance more political power in the Galaxy. And that is just what government does, it likes to get power.

lol, its name is already set up to replace the Council. It is the "Alliance" as in an alliance of races. government likes power, it will try. Its almost like governments have a mind of their own, not really people pushing them, just ideas.

[omgodzilla]

Shepard vs Anderson??



Battle of the decade right there

[Whatever42]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

They operate in small, individual cells, with each cell not knowing the others.  This means that if one cell gets caught then they can't give away the others.  It also provides legal protection as they can say that those particular individuals went rogue and do not represent the whole organization.  That's the lone wolf strategy and the Ku Klux Klan operates like that to a tee.  Yes they have a national organization, but the ones who do the killing and the terrorizing operate as lone wolves.  The KKK believe in white supremacy.  Cerberus is a human supremacist organization.  They are also similar in that they have been rejected by the majority of society, which is why they are an extremist group in the first place.  If the Alliance accepted Cerberus and its goals and methods, then it would not be an extremist group.  The same with the KKK.  The KKK of the 1920's was "technically" (and this is sadly true) not an extremist group because the vast majority of America in the 1920's accepted the Klan's anti-immigration views and KKK members even openly held public office.  The founding of Cerberus, with the Illusive Man calling for a "Cerberus" to protect humanity against the aliens is very similar to the founding of the KKK.  The KKK were founded to protect the way of life of whites against the blacks after the Civil War (it's bull****, but that's why they started).  That was their justification  Psychologically, both Cerberus and the KKK viewed the "other race" as a threat to their  way of life and will take any measures to defend what they view as their way of life.  

The French resistance operated in cells as well. They also had a national leadership based in Britain who sent out orders through coded radio transmissions. They also assassinated Vichy French officials and other collaborators.

Cerberus are more like nationalists than racists. They view the galaxy as a dangerous place with a political structure that is either ineffective or uncaring about human concerns. Cerberus simply believes that humanity needs to be strong enough to protect itself and its interests. I have never once heard anything from Ceberus to suggest that they think themselves better than aliens. Quite the opposite actually.

Using your analogy, the KKK employs other races, permits their members to have personal relationships with other races, never actually says anything bad about other races, doesn't terrorize or kill other races, but is somehow racist? Its bad analogy.

[Whatever42]

StarMarine wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

I think if it would fit in their plans (at least those of TIM) they would assassinate, terrorize and experiment on other races without hesitation. 

Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

[AkiKishi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

That if word got out that humans were experimenting on Aliens humanity would get it's ass kicked.

[Barquiel]

But we know that they experiment on aliens (and humans)...

[Dean_the_Young]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

Except, uh, Cerberus does. Project Trapdoor (the biotic suppression experiments), and the Rachni as well.

While Cerberus certainly doesn't fit the profile or activity of the KKK, or the ****s, or indeed most famous hate/racist groups, they do experiment on aliens as easily as humans.