502 réponses à ce sujet

[nevar00]

DPSSOC wrote...

nevar00 wrote...
I wouldn't call the Council forgiving, but I still would have to say that as suave as TIM might be, there's no real way he could quietly take the Cerberus agents out of the Alliance government as (well for one thing many were visible politicians and couldn't really just "disappear") but mainly because, again, the Turians were already onto them.  Which also means so were the Asari and Salarians.  There was no good way out of this mess, and I still believe that by taking out the mess before it got worse was the right decision.

...Cerberus would stage a massive bust cleaning out a few high ranking offiicials and big business men who would be sent to a classified location to be imprisoned when in reality they'd just be working within Cerberus proper now or recycled and released with fake ID's.  This shows that humanity is trying and making progress in cleaning their own house.  If we don't get everyone the Turians know about maybe our intelligence isn't as good as theirs (possibly compromised).  So the Turians, encouraged by the bust, gives the Alliance their list and they get cleaned out in the same way.  This way we appear to police ourselves, we still look like part of the community for accepting Turian aid, but the difference is we don't ask them to come in and do it for us.

Behold my plan to appease the aliens, and avoiding the damage that could be caused, while still saving face for humanity.  I thought this up in 5 minutes and I'm nowhere near as suave as TIM is supposed to be.

But that's also assuming it would work, and based on TIM's track record... let's just say I wouldn't put much faith in him getting away clean with all of that working out.  Let's see... he's allowed husks, crazy rachni, and a human-reaper hybrid to run rampant... he made a mess dealing with Karajou and his squad and ended up with several of his main facilities destroyed... somehow Toombs managed to escape and a half-deranged soldier managed to track down (and potentially kill) several top scientists... of course there is that whole situation with Jack...

Oh yeah, and I think you said you didn't read the books, but there's a huge debacle in the second one with an autistic super-biotic girl.  I won't give away any spoilers but TIM's plans mess up, people betray him, he ends up launching a failed attack on a Quarian ship... it's just one screw up after another.

Let's just say he doesn't have the best track record with covering his tracks and that I think you're putting a bit too much faith in him.  Also assuming the aliens don't act before his bust, there is always the potential of the non-Cerberus Alliance acting out on their own; we aren't sure how much they know.

nevar00 wrote...
The situation is really not comparable to what happened to the Krogan and Quarians at all.

The Krogan and Quarian situations weren't comparable to each other at all either, but the response was the same.

Not really.  Krogan try to take over the universe: they get genophaged.  Quarians inadvertantly release a threat that could take over the universe: they get kicked out of the Citadel.  One is much more extreme than the other.

nevar00 wrote...
And anyway, I'm pretty sure once Shepard helps destroy a threat as big as the Reapers, that will do a lot to repair the image of humanity.

Yes because rushing to the rescue did so much to improve the Council's attitude the last time.  They say that insanity is repeating the same action over and over and expecting different results.  I will defeat the Reapers cause it needs doing but I no longer hold any delusions that the Council will be grateful for, or even acknowledge, my work. 

But the Council was grateful and acknowledged your work, just not the fact that Reapers were behind it.  And they aren't the only ones guilty of that, all the humans are as well (aside from Andereson of course and maybe Hackitt?  I don't remember).  Honestly, I was annoyed and yelled at them just as everyone else did, but to look at it from their (and Udina's) persepective... it is hard to believe that a race of giant living spaceships are coming to kill everyone when there really isn't much proof.

But considering you come back from the dead to work with a psuedo-terrorist pro-human group and still try and convince them about a hard-to-believe-and-prove threat that is attacking human colonies outside of the Citadel space... what exactly were they supposed to do?  The fact that they still trusted you enough to make you a Spectre again... of course I, and I'm sure most of us, told them to shove it... but that still shows a lot of faith in Shepard. 

Modifié par nevar00, 18 février 2011 - 03:33 .

[Bailyn242]

TIM "is the only one doing anything" seems to be a common thread to the defense of him but I ask you what good has come of it? In the two years since the attack on the Citadel here's the track record:



1) Attack a Quarian team capture their scout vessel.

2) Attack the Quarian Fleet to recapture a child that they had been experimenting on creating the racial tensions we see in ME2 and potentially making it hard to recruit the fleet.

3) Project Lazarus their one success.

4) Send a team to a derelict reaper to get more reaper tech. There is some question about if they were sent to gather the Reaper IFF since TIM tells you that he's lost contact almost immediately after the Collector Ship mission. How could he have sent them the early enough to lose contact right after the Collector ship mission which is when we find out we need the IFF in the first place.

5) Kidnap Grayson, murder Liselle.

6) Experiment on Grayson and turn him into a Reaper Avatar that escapes, and ransacks human Biotic Data for the enemy.



Those are the actions we're aware of in the two years that they have scaled back their activities. As of right now the have done nadda other than project Lazarus. You act like they actually got something significant done. Just because he believes Shepard about the Reapers doesn't give him a free pass.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wulfram wrote...

"According to the United North American States' line of succession, if Huerta was considered dead, then power would transfer to the Vice President and Speaker Ford would have held the position of Vice President for the last year.”

If he was President of the Alliance, the UNAS' line of succession wouldn't matter?

All right, so maybe that clumsy CDN team did retcon Huerta into being the President of the UNAS. That would only mean that the Alliance must have someone else as its President and head of state, who may, or may not be more important than the Prime Minister. Which is totally irrelevant as it pertains to this discussion, because whatever the case, Anderson was never a "second-in-command" in the Alliance. His standing as of Retribution is no more important than that of at least a few dozens of other public and military officials.

And, while it is a matter of opinion, whehter it is sad or not, that Andreson apparently hadn't been briefed well enough on all of the Alliance's official policies and unofficial agendas, it is an absolute fact, that Anderson had no authority and no right to take the fate of the Alliance into his own hands. He overstepped his authority and blatantly disregarded protocol and procedure, when he took those files to the Turians. Hell, even most of his Turian buddies must despise him for such a dereliction of his duty. "Face of humanity", my ass!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 18 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[Gabey5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And I hear Executor Pallin has already paid for his corruption and abuse of power, now, hasn't he?

he was framed by Udina 

Udina is kinda cool guy! Frames corupt Turainz and doesn't afraid of anything!!!

 i lol'd

[Xilizhra]

Arijharn wrote...

Couldn't Anderson wait to start his witch-hunt for Cerberus cells and neutralize TIM until after the Reapers have been and gone? I mean, say what you will about Cerberus, but they still have resources and you may as well make use of them if you need them if the Reapers are arriving en masse.

For some reason this is making me think of Starcraft. "Oh no, I can't accept that lift from you! You're the dastardly Sons of Korhal! TERRORISTS! My men may die to the zerg, but it's okay because they'll die as men!"

Not even your attempted strawman is accurate; the Confederacy's actions against the Sons of Korhal were basically defensive. The Sons were formenting rebellion against it. Granted, the Confederacy was an awful government (though I don't know how big an improvement the Dominion was), but Mengsk was eagerly waging war on the Confederacy as his primary target while the Zerg attacked outlying colonies.
Anyway, with Cerberus, does Anderson even know how much Cerberus is working against the Reapers? All he knew was that it was sponsoring an investigation of disappearing colonies; I don't think he knew anything else. Presumably he didn't think that that was enough to keep him from stopping Cerberus if he had the chance.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anyway, with Cerberus, does Anderson even know how much Cerberus is working against the Reapers? All he knew was that it was sponsoring an investigation of disappearing colonies; I don't think he knew anything else.

More than enough. He talked to Shepard. His Horizon emissary could only confirm Shepard's claims. And by the time of Retribution's beginning, the reports of the colonies missing would have ceased coming.

Xilizhra wrote...

Presumably he didn't think that that was enough to keep him from stopping Cerberus if he had the chance.

Right. That's why his mental capacity is now seriously questioned.

[Sajuro]

If the fate of all sentient life is now in question because a terrorist organization was raided... I don't know how great our chances were in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Our chances have always been dismal. In fact, we're relying on un-indicated Reaper limitations for why we have a chance at all, given the ease with which they could logically destroy us.



So what? Bring it on, and if we go down, may we take the very stars of the galaxy down with us.

[DPSSOC]

nevar00 wrote...
But that's also assuming it would work, and based on TIM's track record... let's just say I wouldn't put much faith in him getting away clean with all of that working out.  Let's see...

 
Yes admittedly TIM isn't batting a thousand, however this isn't an operation it's simply manipulating the right people into busting a few of his moles to give the impression that humanity is getting it's act together.  TIM already made the Alliance and Council dance to his tune with Shepard so it's not like success in this area is unprecednted.

nevar00 wrote...

The Krogan and Quarian situations weren't comparable to each other at all either, but the response was the same.

Not really.  Krogan try to take over the universe: they get genophaged.  Quarians inadvertantly release a threat that could take over the universe: they get kicked out of the Citadel.  One is much more extreme than the other.

And in both circumstances the Council made sure they were beaten down (actively with the Krogan, passively with the Quarians) and hung them out to dry.

nevar00 wrote...
it is hard to believe that a race of giant living spaceships are coming to kill everyone when there really isn't much proof.

I've brought this up before; being skeptical of the existence of dragons is only reasonable until one crashes into your house and kills your neighbours.  The Council saw Sovereign, it looked nothing like any of the other Geth vessels, possessed weapons unlike any of the Geth vessels, there is no grounds to believe Sovereign was a Geth vessel, leaving only one theory as to what it was.  "Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbably, must be the truth."  The Council's denial of the Reapers is just that, denial.  It's blind, irrational, and criminally negligent given what they have seen with their own eyes.

[Xilizhra]

More than enough. He talked to Shepard. His Horizon emissary could only confirm Shepard's claims. And by the time of Retribution's beginning, the reports of the colonies missing would have ceased coming.

And with those reports stopped, he'd have no reason to believe that Cerberus was still useful.

I've brought this up before; being skeptical of the existence of dragons is only reasonable until one crashes into your house and kills your neighbours. The Council saw Sovereign, it looked nothing like any of the other Geth vessels, possessed weapons unlike any of the Geth vessels, there is no grounds to believe Sovereign was a Geth vessel, leaving only one theory as to what it was. "Once you have eliminated the impossible whatever remains, however improbably, must be the truth." The Council's denial of the Reapers is just that, denial. It's blind, irrational, and criminally negligent given what they have seen with their own eyes.

Don't count on this. The Council could well be preparing to fight the Reapers themselves and simply be unwilling to tell Shepard, as she's a Cerberus agent.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

More than enough. He talked to Shepard. His Horizon emissary could only confirm Shepard's claims. And by the time of Retribution's beginning, the reports of the colonies missing would have ceased coming.

And with those reports stopped, he'd have no reason to believe that Cerberus was still useful.

Are you saying Cerberus shouldn't have stopped the Collector threat?

Here is a hint: before you type, think.

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't count on this. The Council could well be preparing to fight the Reapers themselves and simply be unwilling to tell Shepard, as she's a Cerberus agent.

And even if this was the case, the Council kept Anderson out of the loop. Even while (if) he had been the Chairman... Rrrrright...

And of Cerberus he had verified information that they had been doing at least something about the menace.

[Sajuro]

So to make sure I am getting the gist, Anderson (in the eyes of Cerberus supporters) should die because he gave information to the Turians. Kohaku deserved death because he promised the shadow broker information on Cerberus. Am I right?

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

So to make sure I am getting the gist, Anderson (in the eyes of Cerberus supporters) should die because he gave information to the Turians. Kohaku deserved death because he promised the shadow broker information on Cerberus. Am I right?

Took you long enough.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...
Not even your attempted strawman is accurate; the Confederacy's actions against the Sons of Korhal were basically defensive. The Sons were formenting rebellion against it. Granted, the Confederacy was an awful government (though I don't know how big an improvement the Dominion was), but Mengsk was eagerly waging war on the Confederacy as his primary target while the Zerg attacked outlying colonies.

Put yourself in the position of not as the magistrate, but as a regular jane or joe who is brought up in a particular way, and listens to news that are usually quite dismissive of the Sons of Korhal and you can probably start to understand what I'm saying.

I.e., I won't work with terrorists even though they're offering me a way out because they're terrorists (rather, we're told repeatedly that they are).

Mengsk does this same trick against Jim Raynor later.

Xilizhra wrote...
Anyway, with Cerberus, does Anderson even know how much Cerberus is working against the Reapers? All he knew was that it was sponsoring an investigation of disappearing colonies; I don't think he knew anything else. Presumably he didn't think that that was enough to keep him from stopping Cerberus if he had the chance.

He knows that Shephard is working with Cerberus against the Collector's, but Anderson, if Shephard gets to talk to the original council is standing right there next to our hero when he or she says: "Worse, we think the Reapers are involved." Anderson then says to the Council's faces "You're missing the important part Councillor... the Reapers are involved." (or words to that effect).

Presumably though; Anderson trusts Shephard as an individual (similar to how Dr. Chakwas says that she believes our hero's dealings will be ethical...) because Shephard is a decorated/proven hero, and probably even hero worships him or her a bit imo.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

So to make sure I am getting the gist, Anderson (in the eyes of Cerberus supporters) should die because he gave information to the Turians. Kohaku deserved death because he promised the shadow broker information on Cerberus. Am I right?

Took you long enough.

So Renegade Shep should get the same treatment, they did give the information on Cerberus to the Shadow Broker after all . (Just played that part, was indeed a renegade choice even though I thought it had been paragon before)
Still don't subscribe to that line of though since neither Shep,nor Anderson, nor Kohaku owe Cerberus their loyalty.

[Arijharn]

Sajuro, you missed the point



Anderson doesn't owe loyalty to Cerberus, Anderson owes his loyalty to the Alliance. He didn't just weaken Cerberus' position when he passed that information to the Turian's, he weakened the Alliance's as well. The removal of Cerberus' assets became not a victory for the Alliance, it became a victory for the Turian's, and I think in terms of politics, that isn't a good thing, I think it's a bit more complicated than just saying: "Who cares? Cerberus got weakened!"

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

So Renegade Shep should get the same treatment, they did give the information on Cerberus to the Shadow Broker after all [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]. (Just played that part, was indeed a renegade choice even though I thought it had been paragon before)

Naturally, all renegades and paragons who made that particular choice should hang by the neck.

Sajuro wrote...

Still don't subscribe to that line of though since neither Shep,nor Anderson, nor Kohaku owe Cerberus their loyalty.

They owed loyalty to the Alliance, and they disregarded it in course of their actions. They should hang as traitors to the Alliance, not as enemies of Cerberus. TIM, for one, doesn't think his enemies should hang at all, as long as he can still make some use of them. After all, hanging people by the neck is just a waste of potential live test subjects.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 février 2011 - 07:46 .

[Sajuro]

So you would be willing to doom all of those galaxies to being reaped because their sheps did something that you don't like? And when it comes to rooting out corruption in the Alliance, I don't think it should be a zero sum game. The Turians may have had the satisfaction of making all of the arrests but people shouldn't hang just because the Alliance wasn't able to clean its own house.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

So you would be willing to doom all of those galaxies to being reaped because their sheps did something that you don't like?

Those kind of Shepards brought that doom closer themselves by fulfilling the request of a Reaper agent. Better to replace such Shepards with others, more loyal, patriotic and clever.

Sajuro wrote...

And when it comes to rooting out corruption in the Alliance, I don't think it should be a zero sum game. The Turians may have had the satisfaction of making all of the arrests but people shouldn't hang just because the Alliance wasn't able to clean its own house.

Let's get one thing straight. Anderson did not clean the house. He only created the mess that needs cleaning and bolted.

[Sajuro]

1) The Shadow Broker wasn't a Reaper agent at that point in time, and Shepard would have no way of knowing if he was. and it still means you're willing to doom the galaxy for your ideals.

[Markinator_123]

Whatever you do you don't compromise national security like that. Anderson did just that. Anderson should have his head blown off.

[Zulu_DFA]

Sajuro wrote...

1) The Shadow Broker wasn't a Reaper agent at that point in time,

Are you sure? I mean, source? Better a in-game one, so that Shepard could be sure of that too...

Sajuro wrote...

and Shepard would have no way of knowing if he was.

And that's exactly why he has no right to give anything to the Shadow Broker.

Sajuro wrote...

and it still means you're willing to doom the galaxy for your ideals.

No, I'm willing to save the Galaxy by the practical means of removing idiots from the positions around decision-making.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 19 février 2011 - 08:56 .

[DPSSOC]

Sajuro wrote...
So to make sure I am getting the gist, Anderson (in the eyes of Cerberus supporters) should die because he gave information to the Turians.

Not precisely.  He should die because that's generally the penalty for high treason, which turning over sensitive information to a foreign power is, without proper authroization or authority.

Sajuro wrote...
Kohaku deserved death because he promised the shadow broker information on Cerberus. Am I right?

No Kohaku "deserved" to die because he went after people knowing full well it would get him killed.  It'd be no different than me jumping off a cliff; I know what the results are going to be so I deserve what I get.

And to answer your question yes what Shepard did (if he gives the info to the Shadow Broker) is technically treason as well (selling Alliance secrets).  The fact that somebody else is going to do it if you don't is not a defense.

[Dean_the_Young]

That hasn't been the penalty in decades, outside the more regressive countries.



Now a days, that sort of behavior usually begets one of three avenues: lengthy jail time in a state prison, being stripped of all ran, privileges, authority, and official positions and largely left alone except observation from afar, or practical exile to the country said official helped.





I wouldn't say Kohaku deserved to die, but it was an expected course of action. There's what anyone should expect for crossing certain peoples in certain ways, but there's also an important and pertinant point in working towards ending the crimes committed by one's faction, especially on the basis of caring for one's faction.



I have far more sympathy for Kohaku than Anderson: Kohaku didn't know there existed a far greater threat, or of the potential fallout for learning the truth. He didn't even know what the truth was before he went to the Shadow Broker.



Anderson, however, does know that there's a galactic extinction event incoming, and he knows that the Alliance, and should certainly know if the Council was, aren't preparing for the Reapers, and that the group he's going after, is.



I'm not particularly upset that either man went after Cerberus, or that doing so creates some troubles for the Alliance. What's far more important to me is that when Anderson acts, he's doing it in full knowledge that it's against a past and almost certainly future ally against the Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

Those kind of Shepards brought that doom closer themselves by fulfilling the request of a Reaper agent. Better to replace such Shepards with others, more loyal, patriotic and clever.

And if said Shepards save the galaxy anyway? Perhaps in a manner more complete than your Renegade?