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[Ramus Quaritch]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

They may not fit the profile of a terrorist organization, but they nearly perfectly fit the profile of the Ku Klux Klan, which for me makes them an evil organization.  And they have done some very illegal things that I talked about in my previous post.  Oh, I forgot to add that they assassinated a political candidate.  

Not even close. The KKK terrorized a group of people to keep them subjugated. Cerberus performs extreme experiments to further human knowledge and power. They don't assassinate other races, they don't terrorize other races, they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication). They don't try to prevent humans from interacting with other races, they themselves employ other races. The analogy is complete invalid.

They operate in small, individual cells, with each cell not knowing the others.  This means that if one cell gets caught then they can't give away the others.  It also provides legal protection as they can say that those particular individuals went rogue and do not represent the whole organization.  That's the lone wolf strategy and the Ku Klux Klan operates like that to a tee.  Yes they have a national organization, but the ones who do the killing and the terrorizing operate as lone wolves.  The KKK believe in white supremacy.  Cerberus is a human supremacist organization.  They are also similar in that they have been rejected by the majority of society, which is why they are an extremist group in the first place.  If the Alliance accepted Cerberus and its goals and methods, then it would not be an extremist group.  The same with the KKK.  The KKK of the 1920's was "technically" (and this is sadly true) not an extremist group because the vast majority of America in the 1920's accepted the Klan's anti-immigration views and KKK members even openly held public office.  The founding of Cerberus, with the Illusive Man calling for a "Cerberus" to protect humanity against the aliens is very similar to the founding of the KKK.  The KKK were founded to protect the way of life of whites against the blacks after the Civil War (it's bull****, but that's why they started).  That was their justification  Psychologically, both Cerberus and the KKK viewed the "other race" as a threat to their  way of life and will take any measures to defend what they view as their way of life.  

The French resistance operated in cells as well. They also had a national leadership based in Britain who sent out orders through coded radio transmissions. They also assassinated Vichy French officials and other collaborators.

Cerberus are more like nationalists than racists. They view the galaxy as a dangerous place with a political structure that is either ineffective or uncaring about human concerns. Cerberus simply believes that humanity needs to be strong enough to protect itself and its interests. I have never once heard anything from Ceberus to suggest that they think themselves better than aliens. Quite the opposite actually.

Using your analogy, the KKK employs other races, permits their members to have personal relationships with other races, never actually says anything bad about other races, doesn't terrorize or kill other races, but is somehow racist? Its bad analogy.

Where do we see Cerberus employ other races (beyond simply hiring them to move a package or kill someone for them)?  Where do we see them permitting members to have personal relationships with other races?  You can't count Shepard and Grayson in that.  As for not saying anything bad about other races, I don't buy that for a second.  Miranda, Jacob, Kelly Chambers, and the Cerberus members you meet on the Normandy do not fit the typical Cerberus mold.  Heck, they say that at least half off the Normandy 2's crew were your crew on the first Normandy (including Joker and Dr. Chakwas) so the Cerberus people on the Normandy 2 are not an accurate representation of Cerberus (they can even break from Cerberus if you do).  It's said multiple times in the books, codexes, and interactions with people (even on the first Normandy) that humans in general don't trust Turians.  The first game especially makes it clear that there is simmering racial tension between the humans and turians.  And Kai Leng in ME: Retribution is a racist and definitely says bad things about Turians and Krogans.  If you look at the Terra Firma Party (which has a problem with racism) it is only logical that human racists would join Cerberus, as they see Cerberus ensuring human domination.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

That if word got out that humans were experimenting on Aliens humanity would get it's ass kicked.

If you presume aliens to be a bunch of racist idiots.

For the same reason Asari criminals don't represent the Asari Republics, human criminals don't stand for the Alliance. Simply because a bunch of humans, already publicly reviled and opposed by a mostly cooperative Alliance, do something bad, doesn't mean that the Council is going to take it out on a third party.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you presume aliens to be a bunch of racist idiots.

For the same reason Asari criminals don't represent the Asari Republics, human criminals don't stand for the Alliance. Simply because a bunch of humans, already publicly reviled and opposed by a mostly cooperative Alliance, do something bad, doesn't mean that the Council is going to take it out on a third party.

Like humans you mean ?

Anderson showed humanity can police it's own. Otherwise anything could happen if word of experiments on Taurians got out. It's not like humanity are the Taurians favourites in a best case scenerio.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...


Where do we see Cerberus employ other races (beyond simply hiring them to move a package or kill someone for them)?

That is employment, but we can also look at ME2. It's a big part of the game, recruiting aliens Cerberus asks you to. We can also look at Cerberus's Shadow Broker files, which reveal how Cerberus took over and maintained and alien drug cartel.

 Where do we see them permitting members to have personal relationships with other races?

Kelly's open xenophilia certainly didn't prevent her entrance.

As for not saying anything bad about other races, I don't buy that for a second.

When have you ever heard them, as an organization, giving racist beliefs about the innate superiority of humans and inferiority of alien species? About the only genuine racist we've seen yet is Kai, and he doesn't go about it as vocally as Mordin does.

 Miranda, Jacob, Kelly Chambers, and the Cerberus members you meet on the Normandy do not fit the typical Cerberus mold.

Why not? Because they aren't uber-racist die-hard terrorists like you expected? Are they not the mold, or is the mold simply not what you expected? Cerberus reflects the whole spectrum of types of individuals: cynics and idealists, ruthless and kind. Who are you to say that someone who's willing joined Cerberus, has been accepted as Cerberus, and would otherwise hang for working for Cerberus, isn't Cerberus?

 Heck, they say that at least half off the Normandy 2's crew were your crew on the first Normandy (including Joker and Dr. Chakwas) so the Cerberus people on

They never say that. Joker and Chakwas are the only returnees until you pick up Tali and Garrus. Everyone else is meeting Shepard for the first time.

the Normandy 2 are not an accurate representation of Cerberus (they can even break from Cerberus if you do).  It's said multiple times in the books, codexes, and interactions with people (even on the first Normandy) that humans in general don't trust Turians.  The first game especially makes it clear that there is simmering racial tension between the humans and turians.

And? I assume you have a point here that you simply forgot.

Simply because the people in Cerberus are professional and aren't frothing doesn't mean that there aren't general tensions between the species... if most of those tensions hadn't been resolved in the Paragon conclusion to ME1, or replaced otherwise with the Renegade ending. Then again, we never get political opinions on the Normandy anyway, so we can't say there isn't any tension on part of the human crew. They're professional, but that doesn't mean anything other than that they can compose themselves.

 And Kai Leng in ME: Retribution is a racist and definitely says bad things about Turians and Krogans.  If you look at the Terra Firma Party (which has a problem with racism) it is only logical that human racists would join Cerberus, as they see Cerberus ensuring human domination.

It would also make sense for human racists to join the Alliance, since the Alliance protects Humans from the Aliens. Does that make the Alliance racist?

Nor would a racists' desire mean that Cerberus would accept him or her into their ranks without question: a racist who can't control themselves, after all, compromises their effectiveness. Motivation is no substitute for control.

Being in Cerberus doesn't make you racist: being racist makes you racist. While Cerberus undoubtably accepts racists (even if ones like Kai Leng are so tame as to marginalize the label), it also unquestionably accepts non-racists as well. 'Racist' has no claim to being a standard part of the Cerberus mold.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 14 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[Sajuro]

Can I ask when the Cerberus/Alliance connection was confirmed? Last I remember, it was another one of Zulu's theories oft linked to in the forums. But if the Alliance tries to execute or have Anderson executed for attacking an enemy of the council, to quote Udina "Do the words 'political s##t storm' mean anything to you?"

[Whatever42]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...
Where do we see Cerberus employ other races (beyond simply hiring them to move a package or kill someone for them)?  Where do we see them permitting members to have personal relationships with other races?  You can't count Shepard and Grayson in that.  As for not saying anything bad about other races, I don't buy that for a second.  Miranda, Jacob, Kelly Chambers, and the Cerberus members you meet on the Normandy do not fit the typical Cerberus mold.  Heck, they say that at least half off the Normandy 2's crew were your crew on the first Normandy (including Joker and Dr. Chakwas) so the Cerberus people on the Normandy 2 are not an accurate representation of Cerberus (they can even break from Cerberus if you do).  It's said multiple times in the books, codexes, and interactions with people (even on the first Normandy) that humans in general don't trust Turians.  The first game especially makes it clear that there is simmering racial tension between the humans and turians.  And Kai Leng in ME: Retribution is a racist and definitely says bad things about Turians and Krogans.  If you look at the Terra Firma Party (which has a problem with racism) it is only logical that human racists would join Cerberus, as they see Cerberus ensuring human domination.

Miranda worked with an Asari on Illium. Kelly is a Cerberus cheerleader, hand-picked by TIM, but is practically dry humping Garrus.  There were more people on the SR1 bad mouthing aliens than on the SR2.

Yes, there is certainly anti-alien sentiment in human society but its more political than race-based. It's like hating China the country, not the Chinese people. Turians attacked us. The Council ignores our concerns. Humans think they are being treated like 2nd class members of the galactic community and are angry and frustrated. Again, more nationalistic than racist. I haven't heard anyone worry that Asari culture will poison humanity and advocate segragation.

I'm not saying Cerberus isn't criminal. Nor am I suggesting that they won't exploit xenophobic attitudes but as an organization they seem to be doing nothing but trying to strengthen the Alliance technologically and politically.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. Top Alliance officials support the organisation with information and money to further Alliance goals. That is made obvious. The fact he had to go to a different government in order to hurt Cerberus is proof of this. How good is the Alliance is open for debate though. He is perfectly justified in taking down a corrupt government if he feels that way, but remember the seperation of Cerberus and the Alliance is only for deniability.
And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Admiral Kahoku would disagree.  As wouldKahoku's marines who were killed by a Thresher Maw when they answered the distress beacon Cerberus set up.  If Shepard is a sole survivor then it is revealed that Cerberus set up the massacre of Shepard's team on Akhuze as well.  And then there was the experiment that turned an entire colony to husks in ME1 (during a side quest).  Cerberus did that too.  They are an extremist group in every way.

Cerberus' official, legal and real status is irrelevant. Anderson knowingly and deliberately betrayed the Alliance, when he provided sensitive information regarding its internal matters (like the names of Cerberus "infiltators" in the official Alliance structures, etc.) to a foreign state.

So did Kahoku when he disclosed the information he had acquired to Shepard, who was outside of the Alliance's chain of command at the time. And his marines didn't simply "answer a distress call". They were investigating Amistan Banes, a figure connected to Cerberus. And the Shadow Broker's files on Cerberus show that this investigation began even before the events of ME1.

Neither of these rear admirals was authourized by their superiors to take those steps. They acted of their own accord, with blatant disregard to the state security of the Systems Alliance. Maybe in some states such actions aren't considered a punishable offence for a civilian. But Anderson and Kahoku weren't civilians.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 février 2011 - 04:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Like humans you mean ?

No, since humans in Mass Effect haven't been threatening war or retaliation for actions of the Eclipse Sisters, or threatening war with the Krogan over Blood Pack crimes.

Anderson showed humanity can police it's own. Otherwise anything could happen if word of experiments on Taurians got out. It's not like humanity are the Taurians favourites in a best case scenerio.

First, it's Turians, not Taurians.

Second, attacking an innocent group for the crimes of someone they are actively opposed against makes no sense, ethically, logically, or strategically. The Alliance isn't helping Cerberus. The Alliance isn't even ignoring Cerberus. While the Alliance is penetrated by and has its efforts compromised by Cerberus, this is the difference between being malevelent and being unable to help effectively.

Having the Turians, or any Council species, or any species at all, attacking the Alliance for the crimes of Cerberus requires them to be so stupid, ignorant, and willing to accept a galactic war as to be insulting towards the aliens.

[darknoon5]

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Look up Eldfell ashland.

As has also been said, they murdered alliance marines for no apparent reason, and there is also Akuze, which was just to satisfy their curiosity.

Most terrorists don't do what they do just to incite terror, they're motivated by some goal. They're called terrorists in the game, anyway, so that's obviously how bioware wants us to view them.

Even if you would not consider them terrorists, they are an extremist. criminal organization, responsible for murder, totrure, theft, assassination etc. They're supposedly pro-human, but look at all the awful tests they've done on their own species-that colony of the dead from ME1, for one example. They are not good, and they do not represent humanity.

Termonology doesn't matter to me. What does is that Cerberus needed taking down, and the illusive man is very lucky Kai Leng saved his ass.

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do? Throw away the best and only real chance they had to stop Cerberus once and for all? The turians, regardless of ME1 events, are unlikely to actually try to exploit the alliance being infiltrated by cerberus...besides, Orianna made it clear the Turian hierachy already knew when she says the reason they were opposed to humanity joining the council was due to Cerberus.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 février 2011 - 04:38 .

[jbblue05]

Anderson made a mess out of everything he's a pariah within the Alliance., caused a political rift amongst the Council races. Abandon his councilor or advisor position just to get Kahlee Sanders in bed.



How in the hell is he justified?



Are some of you people just happy Cerberus was attacked?

[Ramus Quaritch]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...


Where do we see Cerberus employ other races (beyond simply hiring them to move a package or kill someone for them)?

That is emploment, but we can also look at ME2. It's a big part of the game, recruiting aliens Cerberus asks you to.

 Where do we see them permitting members to have personal relationships with other races?

Kelly's open xenophilia certainly didn't prevent her entrance.

As for not saying anything bad about other races, I don't buy that for a second.

When have you ever heard them giving racist beliefs about the innate superiority of humans and inferiority of alien species?

 Miranda, Jacob, Kelly Chambers, and the Cerberus members you meet on the Normandy do not fit the typical Cerberus mold.

Why not? Because they aren't uber-racist die-hard terrorists like you expected? Are they not the mold, or is the mold simply not what you expected? Cerberus reflects the whole spectrum of types of individuals: cynics and idealists, ruthless and kind. Who are you to say that someone who's willing joined Cerberus, has been accepted as Cerberus, and would otherwise hang for working for Cerberus, isn't Cerberus?

 Heck, they say that at least half off the Normandy 2's crew were your crew on the first Normandy (including Joker and Dr. Chakwas) so the Cerberus people on

They never say that. Joker and Chakwas are the only returnees until you pick up Tali and Garrus. Everyone else is meeting Shepard for the first time.

the Normandy 2 are not an accurate representation of Cerberus (they can even break from Cerberus if you do).  It's said multiple times in the books, codexes, and interactions with people (even on the first Normandy) that humans in general don't trust Turians.  The first game especially makes it clear that there is simmering racial tension between the humans and turians.

And? I assume you have a point here that you simply forgot.

Simply because the people in Cerberus are professional and aren't frothing doesn't mean that there aren't general tensions between the species... if most of those tensions hadn't been resolved in the Paragon conclusion to ME1, or replaced otherwise with the Renegade ending. Then again, we never get political opinions on the Normandy anyway, so we can't say there isn't any tension on part of the human crew. They're professional, but that doesn't mean anything other than that they can compose themselves.

 And Kai Leng in ME: Retribution is a racist and definitely says bad things about Turians and Krogans.  If you look at the Terra Firma Party (which has a problem with racism) it is only logical that human racists would join Cerberus, as they see Cerberus ensuring human domination.

It would also make sense for human racists to join the Alliance, since the Alliance protects Humans from the Aliens. Does that make the Alliance racist?

Nor would a racists' desire mean that Cerberus would accept him or her into their ranks without question: a racist who can't control themselves, after all, compromises their effectiveness. Motivation is no substitute for control.

Being in Cerberus doesn't make you racist: being racist makes you racist. While Cerberus undoubtably accepts racists (even if ones like Kai Leng are so tame as to marginalize the label), it also unquestionably accepts non-racists as well. 'Racist' has no claim to being a standard part of the Cerberus mold.

But many members of Cerberus, including Kai Leng and Rupert Gardner, say that he Alliance is too soft with the aliens.  That is why they joined Cerberus.  As for you recuiting non aliens, that is because you are Shepard and Shepard is running the show.  As for having a romantic relationship with aliens, I can imagine where Cerberus would allow it as part of a mission, but I don't see them allowing it on a personal level as it would be a distraction from Cerberus' mission.  Granted, there is nothing said about this so we can't really argue about that. 

As for the Normandy crew, I am 95% sure that I heard Joker say that they brought back a bunch of the original Normandy's crew.  It makes sense to have as much of your original crew as possible because they were a tight knit unit with Shepard.  

As for my orignal point.  Cerberus is a human supremacist organization.  When Shepard talks to the Illusive Man about the Collector base, he asks "Was it for human dominance?  Or Cerberus?"  And the Illusive man says "They are one in the same." All I am saying is that Cerberus' goals, ideology, and method are very appealing to racists.  You cannot argue that point.  Psychologically, the KKK believe they are protecting the way of life of whites.  Psychologically, Cerberus believes that it is protecting the way of life of humans.  And to those racists who feel that the Alliance is too soft, Cerberus is a very appealing choice beause it is willing to do ANYTHING to advance humanity.  It is only logical that racists would want to join Cerberus.  Are they frothing at the mouth spewing venom all the time?  No.  You are right.  Cerberus does have standards.  They would recruit professionals, but professionals who share those views.  With that said Cerberus is appealing to people of that profile, and as long as they are capable, Cerberus will recruit someone who is very racist. 

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Bioware toned down Cerberus in ME2 since you are working with them and they don't want you feeling bad about working with Cerberus.  I certainly wouldn't want to work with Cerberus in ME1, who murdered Alliance marines, colonists, and even an admiral.  That is plain treason.  Plus, I don't think Bioware wants too much racism in their games, hence the lack of a Cerberus character who uses racial slurs. 

[AdmiralCheez]

jbblue05 wrote...

Are some of you people just happy Cerberus was attacked?

I tend to get a bit of a boner whenever those bastards get what's coming to them, yes.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...


Like humans you mean ? [/quote]No, since humans in Mass Effect haven't been threatening war or retaliation for actions of the Eclipse Sisters, or threatening war with the Krogan over Blood Pack crimes.

[quote]

[/quote]First, it's Turians, not Taurians.

Second, attacking an innocent group for the crimes of someone they are actively opposed against makes no sense, ethically, logically, or strategically. The Alliance isn't helping Cerberus. The Alliance isn't even ignoring Cerberus. While the Alliance is penetrated by and has its efforts compromised by Cerberus, this is the difference between being malevelent and being unable to help effectively.

Having the Turians, or any Council species, or any species at all, attacking the Alliance for the crimes of Cerberus requires them to be so stupid, ignorant, and willing to accept a galactic war as to be insulting towards the aliens.
[/quote]

Merc bands are tools. They do a job. Any retaliation would be dependent on the position of the employer.

Whatever, you obviously understood what I meant. If you feel the need to be pedantic, well that's your issue.

Cerberus has links in the "ruling" Earth body.
Remember what happened when the US bombed Libya ? Remember what the justification was? 

If Earth did not police it's own then you bet they would do something about it. That is why Andersons actions are important. It puts distance between legitimate government and terrorist organisation.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 04:46 .

[darknoon5]

jbblue05 wrote...

Anderson made a mess out of everything he's a pariah within the Alliance., caused a political rift amongst the Council races. Abandon his councilor or advisor position just to get Kahlee Sanders in bed.

How in the hell is he justified?

Are some of you people just happy Cerberus was attacked?

I'd say the answer to the last question is yes. Most people would rejoice if Cerberus was crushed completely and utterely.

Anderson intentions were good, and he didn't mess everything up. Like I said, the only reason the Illusive man escaped was Kai Leng. Come on, all TIM did was shoot a Turian in the back and shoot a Turian when he was down.

Even then, Anderson dealt Ceberus a blow they won't recover from for a while...many of their cells and research facilities were destroyed, and at least a few of their alliance insiders were dealt with.

I would like to ask, how is he unjustified? (don't you mean, how are his actions justified, btw)

AdmiralCheez wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Are some of you people just happy Cerberus was attacked?

I tend to get a bit of a boner whenever those bastards get what's coming to them, yes.

I agree. It's a stupid question, anyway. Cerberus are potrayed at morally questionable, at best. Most people aren't going to shed any tears that they got taken down a notch.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 février 2011 - 04:47 .

[azarhal]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

Cerberus actually do experiment on aliens:  Asari, Rachni, Thorian Creepers and the Geth to name a few. They probably did much more then that as well, it's just that Shepard never got the chance to clean up those mess yet.

[Whatever42]

The problem with the scenario is that Anderson knows that the Reapers are coming. He also knows that Cerberus is working full out against the Reapers. And he thinks now is a good time to create division and distrust among the council races and try to take Cerberus out.



It's like the allies deciding that with Hilter (godwin ftw!) owning almost all of Europe, now is a good time to attack the Russians. I hope ME3 allows us to chart our own path away from the mind-boggling idiocy of both Anderson and TIM.

[jbblue05]

darknoon5 wrote...

I'd say the answer to the last question is yes. Most people would rejoice if Cerberus was crushed completely and utterely.

Correction most poeple don't even care about Cerberus.   Cerberus getting destroyed is like the sun rising and setting just another day.  Just because you don't like Cerberus doesn't reflect what Billions of other humans and aliens believe

Anderson intentions were good, and he didn't mess everything up. Like I said, the only reason the Illusive man escaped was Kai Leng. Come on, all TIM did was shoot a Turian in the back and shoot a Turian when he was down.

Even then, Anderson dealt Ceberus a blow they won't recover from for a while...many of their cells and research facilities were destroyed, and at least a few of their alliance insiders were dealt with.

Anderson's intentions were to impress Kahlee Saanders. Anderson wasn't thinking with his brain he was thinking with his penis.  You do kow the Turian soldiers led the attack slaughtering mostly Cerberus scientists and researchers and few soldier.

Anderson is going to strengthen Cerberus, because what the Turians did disgracing the Alliance in public is going to create a lot of patriotism and support to pro-human organizations like Terra Firma and Cerberus are going to see a huge boost in support

I would lik to ask, how is he unjustified? (don't you mean, how are his actions justified, btw)

 I agree. It's a stupid question, anyway. Cerberus are potrayed at morally questionable, at best. Most people aren't going to shed any tears that they got taken down a notch.

People who think Anderson is justified are the poeple who are like "yay Cerberus was attacked"

Modifié par jbblue05, 14 février 2011 - 05:01 .

[Whatever42]

azarhal wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

Cerberus actually do experiment on aliens:  Asari, Rachni, Thorian Creepers and the Geth to name a few. They probably did much more then that as well, it's just that Shepard never got the chance to clean up those mess yet.

The Rachni was being experimented on by a coorpoation owned by Saren. The Thorian was being observed by another corporation, they didn't actually experiment on the creature, they observed the creature's interaction with the colonists.

Asari? When was that? One of the novels?

And the Geth were not experimented on - David was. David merely communicated with the Geth.

On the other hand, the Council experiments on the Krogan. The Council keeps out the Volus, who are undeniably powerful and influential. The Asari allow slavery.

The entire Council structure is based on the domination of 3 races over the rest of the galaxy.  Humans are a disenfranchised minority struggling to gain equality, not an entrenched majority trying to keep the minority down.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 14 février 2011 - 05:02 .

[Vaenier]

darknoon5 wrote...

Look up Eldfell ashland.

Making my point for me now? Done for the sole purpose of creating powerful human biotics to strengthen the Alliance.

As has also been said, they murdered alliance marines for no apparent reason, and there is also Akuze, which was just to satisfy their curiosity.

All done to study various threats and research to make the Alliance stronger against them. I dont like how they used good marines instead of just using some Terminous thugs, but my dislike of the action doesnt make the action a terrorist one.

Most terrorists don't do what they do just to incite terror, they're motivated by some goal. They're called terrorists in the game, anyway, so that's obviously how bioware wants us to view them.

Even if you would not consider them terrorists, they are an extremist. criminal organization, responsible for murder, totrure, theft, assassination etc. They're supposedly pro-human, but look at all the awful tests they've done on their own species-that colony of the dead from ME1, for one example. They are not good, and they do not represent humanity.

Extremist, yes. They have killed many, tortured more. All of it done to strengthen the Alliance in the galactic stage.

When it comes down to it, the only reason the Galaxy stands is because Cerberus constantly pushed to make the Alliance stronger. They made the Normandy a possibility, which was the only reason you could succeed on your missions in both games. Hell, Akuze could be the event that shaped Shepard into the person they are, without it, they could just be another nameless redshirt. Thats not to mention the numerous other ops they have done that will never be revealed because they were successful, they are not incompitant, no matter how much the lazy mission design team goes out of their way to make them. They still opperate because they can get the job done, otherwise they would have died long ago.

[Gabey5]

Cerberus isn't helping the alliance it seeks to control the alliance. Remember when shep said to TIm "next thing i know you will want to grow your own reaper", TIM can't be controlled, held accountable but Anderson dealt him and his organization a cruel blow that they won't recover from anytime soon. The alliance should be controlled by the Alliance. I also believe we need special ops who will fight for human needs behind the scenes with accountability

[darknoon5]

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Look up Eldfell ashland.

Making my point for me now? Done for the sole purpose of creating powerful human biotics to strengthen the Alliance.

As has also been said, they murdered alliance marines for no apparent reason, and there is also Akuze, which was just to satisfy their curiosity.

All done to study various threats and research to make the Alliance stronger against them. I dont like how they used good marines instead of just using some Terminous thugs, but my dislike of the action doesnt make the action a terrorist one.

Most terrorists don't do what they do just to incite terror, they're motivated by some goal. They're called terrorists in the game, anyway, so that's obviously how bioware wants us to view them.

Even if you would not consider them terrorists, they are an extremist. criminal organization, responsible for murder, totrure, theft, assassination etc. They're supposedly pro-human, but look at all the awful tests they've done on their own species-that colony of the dead from ME1, for one example. They are not good, and they do not represent humanity.

Extremist, yes. They have killed many, tortured more. All of it done to strengthen the Alliance in the galactic stage.

When it comes down to it, the only reason the Galaxy stands is because Cerberus constantly pushed to make the Alliance stronger. They made the Normandy a possibility, which was the only reason you could succeed on your missions in both games. Hell, Akuze could be the event that shaped Shepard into the person they are, without it, they could just be another nameless redshirt. Thats not to mention the numerous other ops they have done that will never be revealed because they were successful, they are not incompitant, no matter how much the lazy mission design team goes out of their way to make them. They still opperate because they can get the job done, otherwise they would have died long ago.

I don't want to make analogies with real terrorist actions, but if you're denying Eldfell-ashland as something that falls under "terrorisim," I don't know what will persuade you.

My point was never about how to define Cerberus, anyway, more what they are. As has been said, Cerberus wants to control the alliance, not help it.

I'd say Cerberus is incompetent. Sure, there have been little sucesses, like the arc projector, but if there were many more large-scale sucessess, like Saracino, and their Eldfell-ashland act, we'd know about them. Every other large cell we've seen has failed with their task, besides arguably Lazarus, however if you think TIM wasn't involved at all, they nearly let Shepard get murdered. Depending on ME2's ending, Shepard can tell TIM to take a hike, meaning Lazarus has the capacity to nearly completely fail, anyway.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Vaenier]

darknoon5 wrote...

My point was never about how to define Cerberus, anyway, more what they are. As has been said, Cerberus wants to control the alliance, not help it.

The people inside the Alliance supporting Cerberus want to control the Alliance completely. Welcome to politics. They think they will help the Alliance with their actions, so they will try to take complete power to make the Alliance all it can be.

If you dont like that, you can gut the Alliance and try to fix that. Just dont get the stupid idea that removing Cerberus will magically make all those politicians stop trying to gain power.

[Zulu_DFA]

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

[xI extremist Ix]

All I know is that the Illusive Man wants me to buy tires at Midas.

[darknoon5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

What, and just let Cerberus poison the alliance and continue their unethical experiments?

And considering his prestigous position representing humanity, an extremist/terrorist human group holding humanity back (like I said, the reason they were held off the council) is definetly his business.

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

My point
was never about how to define Cerberus, anyway, more what they are. As
has been said, Cerberus wants to control the alliance, not help
it.

The people inside the Alliance supporting Cerberus want
to control the Alliance completely. Welcome to politics. They think they
will help the Alliance with their actions, so they will try to take
complete power to make the Alliance all it can be.

If you dont
like that, you can gut the Alliance and try to fix that. Just dont get
the stupid idea that removing Cerberus will magically make all those
politicians stop trying to gain power.

Don't patronize me, I
know Cerberus isn't the only problem the Alliance have, but it's the
largets and most dangerous theat, so taking it down would would
definetly help.

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 février 2011 - 05:19 .