502 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

'all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'
-Edmund Burke

[darknoon5]

Sajuro wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

'all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing'
-Edmund Burke

Very appropriate quote, but the Cerberus fanboi's seem to think Cerberus are anything but "evil." (I don't like that word)

Modifié par darknoon5, 14 février 2011 - 05:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...


But many members of Cerberus, including Kai Leng and Rupert Gardner, say that he Alliance is too soft with the aliens.  That is why they joined Cerberus. 

Besides that I can't recall Gardner ever saying anything racist, you've got... two alleged racists.

There's a difference between thinking the Alliance isn't doing the necessary foreign policy and outright racism.

As for you recuiting non aliens, that is because you are Shepard and Shepard is running the show.

No, that's because those Aliens are the best of the best and Cerberus wants to work with them. Shepard didn't go out and pick out the names of random aliens: Cerberus did the research, found who they wanted whether they were alien or not, and asked Shepard to get them.

As for having a romantic relationship with aliens, I can imagine where Cerberus would allow it as part of a mission, but I don't see them allowing it on a personal level as it would be a distraction from Cerberus' mission.  Granted, there is nothing said about this so we can't really argue about that. 

So, your assertion it wouldn't happen is admittedly baseless?

Nice to hear.

As for the Normandy crew, I am 95% sure that I heard Joker say that they brought back a bunch of the original Normandy's crew.  It makes sense to have as much of your original crew as possible because they were a tight knit unit with Shepard. 

Then you are 100% wrong.

As for my orignal point.  Cerberus is a human supremacist organization.

It is supremacist in a nationalist sense, not a racist sense. Humanity, in their lexicon and usage, is a political unit.

When Shepard talks to the Illusive Man about the Collector base, he asks "Was it for human dominance?  Or Cerberus?"  And the Illusive man says "They are one in the same." All I am saying is that Cerberus' goals, ideology, and method are very appealing to racists.  You cannot argue that point.  Psychologically, the KKK believe they are protecting the way of life of whites.  Psychologically, Cerberus believes that it is protecting the way of life of humans.  And to those racists who feel that the Alliance is too soft, Cerberus is a very appealing choice beause it is willing to do ANYTHING to advance humanity.  It is only logical that racists would want to join Cerberus.  Are they frothing at the mouth spewing venom all the time?  No.  You are right.  Cerberus does have standards.  They would recruit professionals, but professionals who share those views.  With that said Cerberus is appealing to people of that profile, and as long as they are capable, Cerberus will recruit someone who is very racist. 

Which is far from your prior claim that Cerberus itself is racist, and filled with racists, such that non-racists are not the Cerberus 'mold.'

Another thing I'd like to point out is that Bioware toned down Cerberus in ME2 since you are working with them and they don't want you feeling bad about working with Cerberus.  I certainly wouldn't want to work with Cerberus in ME1, who murdered Alliance marines, colonists, and even an admiral.  That is plain treason.  Plus, I don't think Bioware wants too much racism in their games, hence the lack of a Cerberus character who uses racial slurs. 

They didn't tone it down. They simply gave you more insight as to what else they did, and then went an extra mile to give some over-the-top shock appeal as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Merc bands are tools. They do a job. Any retaliation would be dependent on the position of the employer.

Whatever, you obviously understood what I meant. If you feel the need to be pedantic, well that's your issue.

Cerberus has links in the "ruling" Earth body.

Cerberus has collaborators within the ruling Earth body. When said collaborators are exposed, they are expunged by the institutuion.

Cerberus does not run the Alliance, nor does the Alliance run Cerberus. The connection between the two is similar to Council government officials who have ties to mercenary bands: the connections are not legal, or policy.

Remember what happened when the US bombed Libya ? Remember what the justification was?

Do you remember what bombing Libya wasn't?

A full scale war. Or a country that could directly fight back.

If Earth did not police it's own then you bet they would do something about it. That is why Andersons actions are important. It puts distance between legitimate government and terrorist organisation.

Which there already is.

[azarhal]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

azarhal wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Absolutely, TIM is ruthless. So what does it tell us about Cerberus's plans that they don't experiment on aliens?

Cerberus actually do experiment on aliens:  Asari, Rachni, Thorian Creepers and the Geth to name a few. They probably did much more then that as well, it's just that Shepard never got the chance to clean up those mess yet.

The Rachni was being experimented on by a coorpoation owned by Saren. The Thorian was being observed by another corporation, they didn't actually experiment on the creature, they observed the creature's interaction with the colonists.

Asari? When was that? One of the novels?

And the Geth were not experimented on - David was. David merely communicated with the Geth.

On the other hand, the Council experiments on the Krogan. The Council keeps out the Volus, who are undeniably powerful and influential. The Asari allow slavery.

The entire Council structure is based on the domination of 3 races over the rest of the galaxy.  Humans are a disenfranchised minority struggling to gain equality, not an entrenched majority trying to keep the minority down.

Cerberus stole Thorian Creepers and Rachni "babies" and experimented on them on different facilities. These are found in different side quests in ME1. Cerberus unleashed Rachni on a few worlds and then sent Alliance/Cerberus soldiers to see how fast they would die (the soldiers, not the Rachni). Also, you can have a nice chat with the scientist responsible for the Thorian Creepers experimentation. She will attack you, if you try to arrest her.

The Asari stuff is mentioned in Jake's ShadowBroker dossier. They tested a biotic suppressant on Asari and humans...

And they experimented on the Geth. David was just a "breakthrough" in their research, the research started long before that...

As for the rest.

The Council didn't experiment on the Krogan, the Salarians went behind the Asari's back. Twice.

The Asari's slavery "contract" isn't slavery, both party agree on the term of the contract. It happen only in the Terminus system. As far as we know it's only legal on Illium as well and outside of Council or Asari space.

Finally, the Council is not a governement, it's closer to the UN security seats.

[Zulu_DFA]

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

What, and just let Cerberus poison the alliance and continue their unethical experiments?

And considering his prestigous position representing humanity, an extremist/terrorist human group holding humanity back (like I said, the reason they were held off the council) is definetly his business.

So now that the Alliance is on the Council, he had to give everybody a reason to hate the Humans even more?

It's people like Anderson, that hold the Humanity back. When was the last time a Turian general came to the Alliance and told us, what the Turian "bad guys" were concocting to take a revanche for the FCW?

It's a fair game, and everyone's gotta do what he's gotta do, so if Anderson gotta play for the Hierarchy team, so be it, but it's not like he is with the Alliance team anymore.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 14 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[Kingthlayer]

Even my most paragon of paragon Shepards will have to deal with Anderson in ME3. Selling out humanity to aliens in any way goes against everything everyone of my Shepards stand for.



Of course only my main Shepard would take any pleasure in killing him, the rest would consider him a friend who made a really big mistake, worse than sleeping with their LIs.

[Whatever42]

azarhal wrote...
Cerberus stole Thorian Creepers and Rachni "babies" and experimented on them on different facilities. These are found in different side quests in ME1. Cerberus unleashed Rachni on a few worlds and then sent Alliance/Cerberus soldiers to see how fast they would die (the soldiers, not the Rachni). Also, you can have a nice chat with the scientist responsible for the Thorian Creepers experimentation. She will attack you, if you try to arrest her.

The Asari stuff is mentioned in Jake's ShadowBroker dossier. They tested a biotic suppressant on Asari and humans...

And they experimented on the Geth. David was just a "breakthrough" in their research, the research started long before that...

As for the rest.

The Council didn't experiment on the Krogan, the Salarians went behind the Asari's back. Twice.

The Asari's slavery "contract" isn't slavery, both party agree on the term of the contract. It happen only in the Terminus system. As far as we know it's only legal on Illium as well and outside of Council or Asari space.

Finally, the Council is not a governement, it's closer to the UN security seats.

So the Salarians created the genophage and the Turians deployed it but it was behind the Council's back? Um... that's 2/3rds of the Council. And sorry, it is slavery, it's just slavery wrapped up in legal nicities. They just don't like to call it slavery. And it's on an Asari world, that is stated many times. It may be the gateway to the Terminus but its still Council space.

The Council is more than the security council. The Council governs trade and determines colonization rights. It limits the size of militaries to ensure that the Council races, particularly the Turians, maintain their military dominance in the galaxy.

And the rachni were little more than animals and the thorian creeper were not sapient. I do have to say though, I still don't see the point of just unleashing monsters on marines - what the heck could they be possibly testing? I think that was just ME1 muahahah we are evil schtick. But my main point was is you don't see Cerberus trying to develop biological or chemical agents for attacking other races. They are not out to get Turians or Asari or Salarians, they are simply out to secure a strong human future in a dangerous galaxy run mostly by a council that doesn't work to protect human interests.

[tonnactus]

Vaenier wrote...

And they are not terrorists.

That is exactly what they are right at the point when they attacked quarian vessels. If the alliance is part of this,they deserve no loyality anyway.

[tonnactus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
 they don't even experiment with other races (except Geth and then they just used Geth to attempt communication).

The rachni are also a race.An intelligent one by the way.(everyone should now that it would be impossible to nearly defeat the council races without spaceships)

[Gabey5]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

he is one of the highest ranking humans... he is the alliance  it is his business 

[Dean_the_Young]

tonnactus wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

And they are not terrorists.

That is exactly what they are right at the point when they attacked quarian vessels. If the alliance is part of this,they deserve no loyality anyway.

Since the quarians brought a military target into their population center, their population center lost it's invoilability. The rules of war don't forbid any attack on a population centers, and explicitly allow it in cases when the defender is using civilian infrastructure to shield war objectives. You aren't, for example, supposed to blow up a dam if it's removed from the military objectives, but if the defender is using the dam to empower the war effort then it is a valid target, even when civilian casualties will result.

Some nations may choose to avoid a target if it threatens too many civilian casualties, but that's their perogative. Putting human shields around a military target is the crime, not the civilian casualties that result if the target is attacked.

The onus is on the defender, not the attacker, to separate military objectives from civilian centers. The moment the Quarian captain of that ship brought the younger Grayson onto the civilian ship, he made it a military target in any effort aimed at her retrieval.


Now, whether Cerberus has a claim to legitimacy is a separate question, and one that comes down to the root of from where organizational legitimacy springs.

[Zulu_DFA]

Gabey5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

he is one of the highest ranking humans... he is the alliance  it is his business 

Not really. In the book his is just Udina's aide, and Udina is not the toppest honcho in the Alliance even if he is the Citadel Council chairman.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gabey5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

And Zulu, yes Anderson showed the Alliance were weak, but what did you want him to do?

Mind his own damn business.

he is one of the highest ranking humans... he is the alliance  it is his business 

I am the State.

-King Louis XIV

[tonnactus]

The Rachni was being experimented on by a coorpoation owned by Saren. T

And cerberus did it too.


Cerberus created cloned rachni on Binthu as part of their super-soldier research. More rachni are encountered at Alliance listening posts on Nepmos and Altahe.
After clearing the rachni out, Shepard discovers they were specimens
shipped from Noveria by Cerberus, and tracks them back to a depot in the Gorgon
system. The depot is overrun with rachni and there are no survivors.
After killing the rachni, Shepard finds the logs of the station's
commanding officer named Flores who was involved in the project. She
angrily claims they treated the rachni like animals when they should
have treated them like POWs and leaves a recommendation that Cerberus
pursue other projects; the rachni are too smart.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Since the quarians brought a military target into their population center, their population center lost it's invoilability. The rules of war don't forbid any attack on a population centers, and explicitly allow it in cases when the defender is using civilian infrastructure to shield war objectives. You aren't, for example, supposed to blow up a dam if it's removed from the military objectives, but if the defender is using the dam to empower the war effort then it is a valid target, even when civilian casualties will result.

Some nations may choose to avoid a target if it threatens too many civilian casualties, but that's their perogative. Putting human shields around a military target is the crime, not the civilian casualties that result if the target is attacked.

The onus is on the defender, not the attacker, to separate military objectives from civilian centers. The moment the Quarian captain of that ship brought the younger Grayson onto the civilian ship, he made it a military target in any effort aimed at her retrieval.


Now, whether Cerberus has a claim to legitimacy is a separate question, and one that comes down to the root of from where organizational legitimacy springs.

Since when is humanity at war with the Quarians ? Without that legitimacy it's just a terrorist act.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Since the quarians brought a military target into their population center, their population center lost it's invoilability.

What military target the cyniad brought into their population center????? Cerberus also wanted to destroy the idenna with explosives,not simply get gillian back. By the way,gillian isnt a property of anyone nor a "military target" in my eyes.

Modifié par tonnactus, 14 février 2011 - 07:31 .

[Whatever42]

tonnactus wrote...

The Rachni was being experimented on by a coorpoation owned by Saren. T

And cerberus did it too.


Cerberus created cloned rachni on Binthu as part of their super-soldier research. More rachni are encountered at Alliance listening posts on Nepmos and Altahe.
After clearing the rachni out, Shepard discovers they were specimens
shipped from Noveria by Cerberus, and tracks them back to a depot in the Gorgon
system. The depot is overrun with rachni and there are no survivors.
After killing the rachni, Shepard finds the logs of the station's
commanding officer named Flores who was involved in the project. She
angrily claims they treated the rachni like animals when they should
have treated them like POWs and leaves a recommendation that Cerberus
pursue other projects; the rachni are too smart.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Rachni

Fair enough, they experimented on Rachni, not realizing how intelligent they were. Just like a citadel licensed corporation did on Novaria. It was probably a pretty easy mistake to make: lets face it, without mom, they were pretty much acting rabid.

But my point was is that Cerberus is not experimenting on the other sapient races of the galaxy to develop biological or chemical weaponry with which to attack those species. They are simply looking for ways to strengthen humanity. The Salarians on the other hand... we need a few threads about how the STG is like the KKK.

[Whatever42]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...


Since the quarians brought a military target into their population center, their population center lost it's invoilability. The rules of war don't forbid any attack on a population centers, and explicitly allow it in cases when the defender is using civilian infrastructure to shield war objectives. You aren't, for example, supposed to blow up a dam if it's removed from the military objectives, but if the defender is using the dam to empower the war effort then it is a valid target, even when civilian casualties will result.

Some nations may choose to avoid a target if it threatens too many civilian casualties, but that's their perogative. Putting human shields around a military target is the crime, not the civilian casualties that result if the target is attacked.

The onus is on the defender, not the attacker, to separate military objectives from civilian centers. The moment the Quarian captain of that ship brought the younger Grayson onto the civilian ship, he made it a military target in any effort aimed at her retrieval.


Now, whether Cerberus has a claim to legitimacy is a separate question, and one that comes down to the root of from where organizational legitimacy springs.

Since when is humanity at war with the Quarians ? Without that legitimacy it's just a terrorist act.

I thought their intention was to recover the target? Was their intention to terrorize the Quarians to achieve some sort of political goal?

I love how everyone is a terrorist these days.

[Barquiel]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

But my point was is that Cerberus is not experimenting on the other sapient races of the galaxy to develop biological or chemical weaponry with which to attack those species.

Trapdoor experiments?

http://masseffect.wi...ssiers/Cerberus

Modifié par Barquiel, 14 février 2011 - 07:39 .

[aeetos21]

This question proves that some people put vendettas ahead of the battle against the reapers. Which is worse (Anderson or Cerberus) really is of no consequence at this point. There will be plenty of time to to do that after. But killing off allies will only hurt you in the end and endanger humanity further against the reapers.

Modifié par aeetos21, 14 février 2011 - 07:35 .

[tonnactus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Fair enough, they experimented on Rachni, not realizing how intelligent they were.

And why they didnt realize that? Did the rachni nearly defeated the council races with some magic and not starships?
The rachni are clearly a intelligent race.

But my point was is that Cerberus is not experimenting on the other sapient races of the galaxy to develop biological or chemical weaponry with which to attack those species.

They experimented on asari and geth too.

2169 - TRAPDOOR experiments on asari captives with omega-enkaphalin to measure disruption of biotic
powers. Estimate 2.5 mg active ingredient for each 25 kg of body
weight; under 7.5 mg dose optimal to avoid detection by taste or smell;
3-5 Citadel standard days onset period; powers return in 2-5 Cit-stan
days after last dose taken; permanent damage possible.

http://masseffect.wi...ssiers/Cerberus

So what is the purpose of this research if not to have a chemical weapon against asari biotics?

[Whatever42]

The rachni are an intelligent race but we know little about them and the rachni we encountered were little more than enraged beasts, even mom so.



And one experiment, 14 years before the start of ME1 is hardly a pattern. At this point there were very few human biotics on which to experiment. That they experimented on some Asari does not mean that they were trying to create a biological weapon to harm Asari.

[Fixers0]

How hard could it be to understand.



Anderson is a human war hero and of man of integrity,, that is someone who should be iconic for humanity, not some pathetic terrorist.

[tonnactus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The rachni are an intelligent race

Right.Like everyone who wanted to know could know.

but we know little about them

Enough to know that they are intelligent regarding the war in the past.

and the rachni we encountered were little more than enraged beasts, even mom so.

They were able enough to breakthrough cerberus security measures...(Cerberus Officers:"they are to clever. General,concentrate on other projects.Flores out"

At this point there were very few human biotics on which to experiment. That they experimented on some Asari does not mean that they were trying to create a biological weapon to harm Asari.

That is exactly what this means. Why cerberus should develop a chemical weapon to disrupt human biotics that,like you wrote,were few at this time?