502 réponses à ce sujet

[Jagri]

jbblue05 wrote...

Jagri wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Yes...it's too bad the asari know everything about it  :innocent:

Too bad Cerberus can still deploy it and the Asari have no way to counter it.

Just hope it doesn't provoke the STG to come up with a disease to neuter humanity.

Not if we do it to them first

Hah! In any case I wouldn't want to get into biological warfare with the Salarians.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's officially the Turian Heirarchy. Informally, everyone refers to them as 'the Turians.'

[jbblue05]

Jagri wrote...

Hah! In any case I wouldn't want to get into biological warfare with the Salarians.

Human DNA is more diverse than the Krogans, so it would be a lot harder.
Plus the Salarians keep their females on the homeworld. So we can successfully put a massive dent in their population if the occassion arises.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anderson deserves to hang for what he did. But if he can be useful, he has to be used. He may even die a hero or something, for all I care.

Yes, helping to cripple a terrorist organization does indeed deserve a hanging.

Regardless of your viewpoint on Cerberus, seeing as Cerberus is an enemy of the alliance, I don't see why Anderson should hang. Whatever the illusive man says, Cerberus is not humanity. Anderson made the right call.

Cerberus works for the Alliance. Top Alliance officials support the organisation with information and money to further Alliance goals. That is made obvious. The fact he had to go to a different government in order to hurt Cerberus is proof of this. How good is the Alliance is open for debate though. He is perfectly justified in taking down a corrupt government if he feels that way, but remember the seperation of Cerberus and the Alliance is only for deniability.
And they are not terrorists. Never have they tried to incite terror in a population. They dont blow up colonies or kill people to scare the population. Stop using that term to describe anybody doing something you disagree with, its a loaded word and its dangerous to do so.

Admiral Kahoku would disagree.  As wouldKahoku's marines who were killed by a Thresher Maw when they answered the distress beacon Cerberus set up.  If Shepard is a sole survivor then it is revealed that Cerberus set up the massacre of Shepard's team on Akhuze as well.  And then there was the experiment that turned an entire colony to husks in ME1 (during a side quest).  Cerberus did that too.  They are an extremist group in every way.

Cerberus' official, legal and real status is irrelevant. Anderson knowingly and deliberately betrayed the Alliance, when he provided sensitive information regarding its internal matters (like the names of Cerberus "infiltators" in the official Alliance structures, etc.) to a foreign state.

So did Kahoku when he disclosed the information he had acquired to Shepard, who was outside of the Alliance's chain of command at the time. And his marines didn't simply "answer a distress call". They were investigating Amistan Banes, a figure connected to Cerberus. And the Shadow Broker's files on Cerberus show that this investigation began even before the events of ME1.

Neither of these rear admirals was authourized by their superiors to take those steps. They acted of their own accord, with blatant disregard to the state security of the Systems Alliance. Maybe in some states such actions aren't considered a punishable offence for a civilian. But Anderson and Kahoku weren't civilians.

Ludicrous. Especially comparing this to a rogue CIA group. It is more like ARM or some other homegrown US extremist group. In that case we have absolutely no frame of reference in the real world to compare it to. 

First: If it was a rogue CIA cell then another internal agency would have been used to deal with the threat.
Second: If the rogue extremist group was as well connected within the Government then it would be a clean internal agency or branch within an agency that would be used.

Needless to say, these comparisons are ludicrous to attempt since we have such a shallow backdrop for this story. Really, what do we know about the internal structure of any of these governments? What agencies do they have? How are those agencies interconnected?

Anderson did what he had to and if there was any real world parallel then something like this could easily happen, it would just be kept quiet and on the down low. Our government would not want to reveal to the world that it had been so suborned by a terrorist or extremist group that they had no other way to deal with the threat but go outside the government to deal with it, nor would they want to allow it to continue. Talk about a rock and a hard place guys. classic no win situation and Anderson proved that he'd be willing to sacrifice himself to get the job done.

BTW, if Anderson was a councillor and did this rather than Udina's errand boy (more picked Anderson than picked Udina) then he would be acting as a member of the council and his primary task is to ensure the stability of galactic civilization and represent Humanity on the Council. Not the Alliance, humanity. You know, just like the Asari represents the Asari people, the Turian represents the Turian people etc.. Anderson as a Councillor acted within the scope of his mandate when he brought in a group that Cerberus had not suborned to take them down.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anderson isn't Councilor in Retribution.



Retribution was written based on the presumption that Udina had been chosen for Councilor by Shepard. Anderson isn't Councilor during the events, nor was he ever Councilor: the writers went with the scenario that allowed them to write the story of Anderson being able to go off gavalanting across the galaxy in a way he wouldn't have been able to do as Councilor. As the events would not have occured as depicted had Anderson been Councilor, Retribution actually exists in a hazy status of para-canon: we know it happens as depicted in a galaxy in which Udina is Councilor, but until ME3 comes out we have no idea how it transpires in a time when Anderson is Councilor.





All that said, I don't criticize Anderson for cleaning house of the Alliance. I do criticize him for his over-opposition against the one faction in the galaxy that he would know has been actively opposing the Reapers, before the Reapers have been dealt with, and when he knows that neither the Alliance or the Council have their own significant Reaper-research projects underway.



After the Reapers? I'd applaud. Before? Well, winning against them since ME1 has become that much more despite Anderson, as opposed to thanks to him.

[Jagri]

jbblue05 wrote...

Jagri wrote...

Hah! In any case I wouldn't want to get into biological warfare with the Salarians.

Human DNA is more diverse than the Krogans, so it would be a lot harder.
Plus the Salarians keep their females on the homeworld. So we can successfully put a massive dent in their population if the occassion arises.

Thats assuming that Salarians don't start with a base. Krogan had the advantage of being a race that didn't care about medical research nor did they likely document in detail diseases that have broken out in their populations. Humans on the other hands have vast database of information on diseases and viruses that has plagued humanity for thousands of years. I am sure a Salarain could scrap through the human archieves and find himself a sample of "Small Pox" then enhance it a bit to work around any immunities or vaccines we came up for it and boom! The hyperlethal small pox is released on humanity.

But enough of that sure humans would kick the entire Council and all its races butts cause we special!

[Wulfram]

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

[Inverness Moon]

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

I don't see how anyone could say that with a straight face considering Cerberus is responsible for Shepard's recreation and the creation of the Normandy SR2 and EDI from technology salvaged from Sovereign. I think it's quite obvious that those immensely significant contributions to the fight against the reapers.

Also, even if Cerberus wasn't around it wouldn't change the fact that the Alliance and the Council continue to bury their heads in the sand. Don't try to blame the majority of the galaxy's stupidity on Cerberus.

[jayred vas normandy]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Anderson isn't Councilor in Retribution.

Retribution was written based on the presumption that Udina had been chosen for Councilor by Shepard. Anderson isn't Councilor during the events, nor was he ever Councilor: the writers went with the scenario that allowed them to write the story of Anderson being able to go off gavalanting across the galaxy in a way he wouldn't have been able to do as Councilor. As the events would not have occured as depicted had Anderson been Councilor, Retribution actually exists in a hazy status of para-canon: we know it happens as depicted in a galaxy in which Udina is Councilor, but until ME3 comes out we have no idea how it transpires in a time when Anderson is Councilor.


All that said, I don't criticize Anderson for cleaning house of the Alliance. I do criticize him for his over-opposition against the one faction in the galaxy that he would know has been actively opposing the Reapers, before the Reapers have been dealt with, and when he knows that neither the Alliance or the Council have their own significant Reaper-research projects underway.

After the Reapers? I'd applaud. Before? Well, winning against them since ME1 has become that much more despite Anderson, as opposed to thanks to him.

they way the book states it , Anderson could have been the councilor but resigned his postion some time shortly after ME2, then becoming just an adviser. but i dont think its ever been stated one way or the other.

 my thoughts are that in light of the actions that TIM and Cerberus have taken, Anderson was right in the actions he took. My paragade shep plans to make sure TIM answers for the crimes he comitted aginst Grayson. 

[Wulfram]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

I don't see how anyone could say that with a straight face considering Cerberus is responsible for Shepard's recreation and the creation of the Normandy SR2 and EDI from technology salvaged from Sovereign. I think it's quite obvious that those immensely significant contributions to the fight against the reapers.

Also, even if Cerberus wasn't around it wouldn't change the fact that the Alliance and the Council continue to bury their heads in the sand. Don't try to blame the majority of the galaxy's stupidity on Cerberus.

I don't see any reason why Shepard, the Normandy SR2 or EDI are necessary to defeat the reapers and in any case they've already been built, so there's no reason to keep Cerberus around any more.

[Crackseed]

By your logic though Dean, our Sheps taking out the Shadow Broker is also just as idiotic since the Broker was also looking for a way to combat the Reapers or find ways to survive. Just because Cerberus is obsessed with combating the Reapers doesn't mean they get a free pass. I agree we actually owe them more then just a brief nod considering Shepard's return is all due to them, but it's also saying something that despite wanting to combat the Reapers, they still seem to think it's "cool" to be screwing around with experiments on races or doing things that could backfire and cause turmoil when every effort and cell they have should be working to the same goal of funding the war against the Reapers.

Just some food for thought I suppose. While I dislike Cerberus, that dislike is from an in-game RP standpoint and I appreciate the interesting lore and unique design of their group. Doesn't mean I won't shoot TIM in the head when I get a chance Figured I should say that before Zulu gets more defensive thinking we're all hating Cerberus needlessly haha >.>

Modifié par crackseed, 14 février 2011 - 11:25 .

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Like humans you mean ?

No, since humans in Mass Effect haven't been threatening war or retaliation for actions of the Eclipse Sisters, or threatening war with the Krogan over Blood Pack crimes.

Anderson showed humanity can police it's own. Otherwise anything could happen if word of experiments on Taurians got out. It's not like humanity are the Taurians favourites in a best case scenerio.

First, it's Turians, not Taurians.

Second, attacking an innocent group for the crimes of someone they are actively opposed against makes no sense, ethically, logically, or strategically. The Alliance isn't helping Cerberus. The Alliance isn't even ignoring Cerberus. While the Alliance is penetrated by and has its efforts compromised by Cerberus, this is the difference between being malevelent and being unable to help effectively.

Having the Turians, or any Council species, or any species at all, attacking the Alliance for the crimes of Cerberus requires them to be so stupid, ignorant, and willing to accept a galactic war as to be insulting towards the aliens.

Huh? Attacking the Alliance? The attacks were carried out on Cerberus bases. There were arrests of Alliance officials but that it not attacking, nor is it a case of treason. It ain't like the Turian's attacked Alliance command or Fifth Fleet HQ.

This is like raids on a former CIA cell with no ties to the CIA any longer (see Charlie Wilson's War and what became the Taliban) and getting someone to attack their bases, not the CIA's bases, their bases. Then letting foreign governments know about corrupt officials (read terrorist or criminal) on their soil that they could arrest within their own sovereign nation under their existing legal rights. I highly doubt the Turians were running Raids on Earth itself or Elysium.

Other notes that cropped up as I read through the thread:

• @Whatever+digits: The Volus lack any form of military, certainly enough of a military to contribute to Galactic defense and security. They are merchants and bankers.
• @Whatever+digits: The only Asari world that allows any form of slavery is Illium, which is not a part of Council regulate space. Condemning the Asari for that would be like condemning humans because humans are members of merc bands that perform slave raids.
• @Whatever+digits: The Council structure does need an overhaul. It should be more like a Security Council backed by some parlimentary system.
• @Zulu: You claim it makes the races hate humanity. Nope, by acting and showing that someone is willing to act Anderson has just proven that Humanity, while flawed has people willing to fight corruption within their own society. In other words his actions just made the Human government more trustworthy, not less.
• @Whatever+digits: Rachni were FAR more than animals and Miranda acknowledges this when she talks about how the experiments were terminated once their intelligence was known. Also the Citadel licenced Corporation was a front for Saren. An acknowledged Rogue Spectre on the run.
• @Dean_the_Young: Get a grip, a 15-year old was a military target only because she was an escaped torture victim. They attacks the fleet not to strike a military target but to capture what TIM regarded as an escaped test subject.
• @Wulfram: Bingo, at some point there has to be a trade off between the detrimental publicity cause by Cerberus and the positive research they do. Unfortunately after their experiment passing on all the files on Human Biotics to the Reapers in Retribution I can't see much positive to their work other than Lazarus and the Jacob/Miranda mission on the Citadel.

Normandy's Crew and Cerberus:

I've seen lots of speculation both ways from people and many I suspect miss the mark. Gabby and Ken "only know the Normandy Team" so they are semi-Cerberus members. They realized that something needed to be done about the Reaper threat and found someone willing to something about it. They were by no means hardcore Cerberus devotees. 
Jacob is another person who realized that as bad as Cerberus may be portrayed they weren't ignoring the problem, he still doesn't trust Cerberus. Joker's just happy to have his baby back and working for Shepard again, same with Chakwas. Kelly was specifically recruited for this job, she was recruited to work with Shepard whose anti Cerberus stance was well documented. No surprise that TIM might not keep her in the loop about his real goals. She's a secretary/counsellor for crying out loud. It would be pretty simple for TIM to only show her what she needed to believe in the mission.

I suspect from the conversations aboard the Normandy that many of the crew are similar. Ex-Alliance who left when the higher ups ignored Shep's warnings who jumped at a chance to work for Shepard and do something about it. Now, each one of those crew were in those pods waiting to be milkshaked, at that point they've just seen TIM's true colors and they leave and everyone's surprised? Hello?

Of them all only and perhaps the guy whose family was on New Canton seem likely to be hardcore Cerberus devotees. Rupert was a colonist family man who lost everything to slavers, no surprise that he gets all warm and fuzzy towards the group he perceives as looking out for humanity.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Paragon thinking at its brilliance:

We, the Galaxy of Good, find the idea of figting the Reapers bad, because that's what Cerberus wants. Since Cerberus wants it, survival is discredited.

Overrated, dear Paragons! Your survival is definitely overrated!!!

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu, your ability to straw man is awe-inspiring.

[Wulfram]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Paragon thinking at its brilliance:

We, the Galaxy of Good, find the idea of figting the Reapers bad, because that's what Cerberus wants. Since Cerberus wants it, survival is discredited.

Overrated, dear Paragons! Your survival is definitely overrated!!!

The thinking I'm concerned about is more that people will believe that the Reapers are Human/Cerberus propaganda.  If the galaxy thinks the Reapers are a fantasy, that's a problem.  If the galaxy thinks they're a cover for Cerberus actions, that's a disaster.
The second most prominent Reaper believer helping the Turians give Cerberus a kicking should help counter that idea.

Modifié par Wulfram, 15 février 2011 - 12:05 .

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Paragon thinking at its brilliance:

We, the Galaxy of Good, find the idea of figting the Reapers bad, because that's what Cerberus wants. Since Cerberus wants it, survival is discredited.

Overrated, dear Paragons! Your survival is definitely overrated!!!

I have an excersize for you Zulu. Please itemize every positive Cerberus experiment/project. Then itemize every experiment/project that created a negative result or negative publicity/reputation.

Then count how many are in column a and column b.

Which is longer?

[Dean_the_Young]

jayred vas normandy wrote...

they way the book states it , Anderson could have been the councilor but resigned his postion some time shortly after ME2, then becoming just an adviser. but i dont think its ever been stated one way or the other.

 my thoughts are that in light of the actions that TIM and Cerberus have taken, Anderson was right in the actions he took. My paragade shep plans to make sure TIM answers for the crimes he comitted aginst Grayson. 

The book never suggests or implies Anderson stood down.

Because of the confusion, a poster on this forum emailed Drew, the author and lead writer on Mass Effect, asking for clarification, the post of which I summarized.

[Crackseed]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Paragon thinking at its brilliance:

We, the Galaxy of Good, find the idea of figting the Reapers bad, because that's what Cerberus wants. Since Cerberus wants it, survival is discredited.

Overrated, dear Paragons! Your survival is definitely overrated!!!

Well if we followed your Renegade logic we'd all be fitted with various experimental technologies, hating on aliens just because they aren't human and willing to use them as meatshields thus turning us into the very things we're trying to destroy and stop.

*strokes chin* I say nay nay!

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...


Huh? Attacking the Alliance? The attacks were carried out on Cerberus bases. There were arrests of Alliance officials but that it not attacking, nor is it a case of treason. It ain't like the Turian's attacked Alliance command or Fifth Fleet HQ.

Then you were intervening in a different point to a different poster, who was suggesting that because of Cerberus actions, Council species might retaliate against the Alliance.

@Dean_the_Young: Get a grip, a 15-year old was a military target only because she was an escaped torture victim. They attacks the fleet not to strike a military target but to capture what TIM regarded as an escaped test subject.

Don't demean torture victims by throwing that verdict where it doesn't apply. What occured to Gillian was unethical and harmful, but it wasn't torture.

As a military experiment/responsibility, Gillian is a strategic target for recovery: Grayson's acts waver between high-value theft and kidnapping. While the ethics of Gillian's status are open to condemnation, what she also is does count as a strategic target.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

2175 CE - Cerberus covertly contacts Michael Moser Lang, a political dissident on Earth, and provides him with funding to purchase weapons. Cerberus continues to monitor him after contact ends. One year later, Lang assassinates United North American States president Enrique Aguilar and Chinese People's Federation premier Ying Xiong. The resulting political shuffle benefits Cerberus' shell companies and plans for the Systems Alliance Parliament.

You accidentally forgot to include that Cerberus broke contact and ended its surveilance with Lang well before he killed the Presidents.

[Crackseed]

How can you argue it wasn't torture? If you were the person receiving the type of treatment and activities that Gillian received, would you say it wasn't torture? Will you say Subject Zero also wasn't tortured and that she's basically a strategic target for recapture?

By even applying labels to them like that instead of considering them humans with rights and deserving of freedom to live their lives outside of a lab subjecting them to unethical/harmful experiments, you're kind of upholding the negative and justified bad press Cerberus has IMO - and validating the decision to attack it, even if they could be considered an ally against the Reapers.

Modifié par crackseed, 15 février 2011 - 12:21 .

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri wrote...

2175 CE - Cerberus covertly contacts Michael Moser Lang, a political dissident on Earth, and provides him with funding to purchase weapons. Cerberus continues to monitor him after contact ends. One year later, Lang assassinates United North American States president Enrique Aguilar and Chinese People's Federation premier Ying Xiong. The resulting political shuffle benefits Cerberus' shell companies and plans for the Systems Alliance Parliament.

You accidentally forgot to include that Cerberus broke contact and ended its surveilance with Lang well before he killed the Presidents.

2176 - Electronic surveillance removed from Lang's home. Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong.

So a year later its removed but time could be right up to the point before killing the President and Premier. Likely not to leave behind evidence so when investigation teams break down Lang's door they don't find monitoring devices.

Modifié par Jagri, 15 février 2011 - 12:27 .

[Pwener2313]

Why do people get so concerned about convincing the council races that the Reapers real?



Asari - Will follow the Turians to keep them happy.

Turians - Too hung over Cerbrus and Shepard and will try to deny it all no matter what.

Salarians - May already know that the Reapers are real but may end up falling for the other two.



While you are all fighting the council races to help you, the Reapers will annihiliate you. Why settle for infighting politicians and morons when you can have the big guys?



Geth - Rewritted heretics.

Quarians - Hopefull resolution against Geth war plans.

Krogan - Cure Genophage and use as shock troopers.

Rachni - Unleless you killed the Queen (sucker)

Alliance - Cerberus is a division of the Alliance (TIM can convince a lot of them)

Cerberus - Collector Base



The way I see it, that's all the help I need.

[Inverness Moon]

Wulfram wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I don't see how anyone could say that with a straight face considering Cerberus is responsible for Shepard's recreation and the creation of the Normandy SR2 and EDI from technology salvaged from Sovereign. I think it's quite obvious that those immensely significant contributions to the fight against the reapers.

Also, even if Cerberus wasn't around it wouldn't change the fact that the Alliance and the Council continue to bury their heads in the sand. Don't try to blame the majority of the galaxy's stupidity on Cerberus.

I don't see any reason why Shepard, the Normandy SR2 or EDI are necessary to defeat the reapers and in any case they've already been built, so there's no reason to keep Cerberus around any more.

First of all, strawman argument, because whether or not they are necessary is not what I brought up. I said they were immensely significant contributions to the fight against the reapers, considering the events of ME2. Secondly, saying there is no reason to keep Cerberus around anymore because of that is ridiculous. If Cerberus could make that contribution then how else could they contribute? We'll have to wait and see, but discarding allies because you, in your immense ignorance, have decided they can no longer contribute is utterly stupid.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri wrote...

2175 CE - Cerberus covertly contacts Michael Moser Lang, a political dissident on Earth, and provides him with funding to purchase weapons. Cerberus continues to monitor him after contact ends. One year later, Lang assassinates United North American States president Enrique Aguilar and Chinese People's Federation premier Ying Xiong. The resulting political shuffle benefits Cerberus' shell companies and plans for the Systems Alliance Parliament.

You accidentally forgot to include that Cerberus broke contact and ended its surveilance with Lang well before he killed the Presidents.

2176 - Electronic surveillance removed from Lang's home. Lang kills Enrique Aguilar and Ying Xiong.

So a year later its removed but time could be right up to the point before killing the President and Premier. Likely not to leave behind evidence so when investigation teams break down Lang's door they don't find monitoring devices.

This site really lacks a suitable eye-roll smile.