502 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Bailyn242 wrote...

I have an excersize for you Zulu. Please itemize every positive Cerberus experiment/project. Then itemize every experiment/project that created a negative result or negative publicity/reputation.

Then count how many are in column a and column b.

Which is longer?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Since "negative publicity/reputation" is of no concern, so far Cerberus has failed only at only one project: Ascension.

EVERYTHING else was a success.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 février 2011 - 12:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

In so much that proving a negative is a success.



However, Bailyn's mistake is a fallacy of categorization: our exposure to Cerberus projects is horibly biased. We can't itemize every Cerberus experiment because the ones we come across are well outside the norm. A typical Cerberus experiment isn't discovered, pass or fail. We have no idea how many projects Cerberus has done in the past, let alone their average success rate (or the scope of their failures).



Trying to guess a Cerberus success rate is like trying to evaluate a country from a sample of inmates from a prison: not only is it not necessarily reflective, it's horribly biased towards certain trends as well.

[Bailyn242]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

I have an excersize for you Zulu. Please itemize every positive Cerberus experiment/project. Then itemize every experiment/project that created a negative result or negative publicity/reputation.

Then count how many are in column a and column b.

Which is longer?[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

Since "negative publicity/reputation" is of no concern, so far Cerberus has failed only at only one project: Ascension.

EVERYTHING else was a success.

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

[Dean_the_Young]

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

Besides the fact that Cerberus's only known involvement in the Colony of the Dead was taking Husks away, with no indication that they caused it anymore than any of the other small colonies/outposts indoctrinated and huskified...

Simply because bad things happened in the course of a mission doesn't mean it was a failure. The Reapers getting their hands on civilian Human biotic research wasn't good, but it wasn't a disaster either. The Reapers have countless cycles of biotic knowledge, and a mastery of their own that far exceeds ours: it's not like biotics were ever a secret weapon to beat them.

It certainly didn't invalidate the two other missions of Cerberus during Retribution: conducting a research project to decipher Reaper technology and better understand indoctrination (achieved, as Cerberus retrieved their data, and even Aria and the Alliance now have Reaper tech/data to study), or of stopping Avatar Grayson before he could get away and do real damage to the galaxy as the Reaper's cats-paw.

No one claims the situation was perfect or ideal, but it wasn't a failure.

[wolfsite]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

Besides the fact that Cerberus's only known involvement in the Colony of the Dead was taking Husks away, with no indication that they caused it anymore than any of the other small colonies/outposts indoctrinated and huskified...

Simply because bad things happened in the course of a mission doesn't mean it was a failure. The Reapers getting their hands on civilian Human biotic research wasn't good, but it wasn't a disaster either. The Reapers have countless cycles of biotic knowledge, and a mastery of their own that far exceeds ours: it's not like biotics were ever a secret weapon to beat them.

It certainly didn't invalidate the two other missions of Cerberus during Retribution: conducting a research project to decipher Reaper technology and better understand indoctrination (achieved, as Cerberus retrieved their data, and even Aria and the Alliance now have Reaper tech/data to study), or of stopping Avatar Grayson before he could get away and do real damage to the galaxy as the Reaper's cats-paw.

No one claims the situation was perfect or ideal, but it wasn't a failure.

This is a very nice piece of fiction.  Cerberus brought the Dragon's Teeth to that colony and when you show up the entire colony was nothing but Husks.  Cerberus was responsible and on top of that there is no known purpose or data to show that they gained any information from it.  Miranda even referred to this as well as the Rachni and Creepers as mistakes meaning they died for nothing.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

-snip
It certainly didn't invalidate the two other missions of Cerberus during Retribution: conducting a research project to decipher Reaper technology and better understand indoctrination (achieved, as Cerberus retrieved their data, and even Aria and the Alliance now have Reaper tech/data to study), or of stopping Avatar Grayson before he could get away and do real damage to the galaxy as the Reaper's cats-paw.

No one claims the situation was perfect or ideal, but it wasn't a failure.

Forgive me, but isn't Cerberus the one who filled Grayson up with Reaper Tech to make him an Avatar? That's like saying "We may have started to fire, but we put it out before it killed to many people, we're heroes!"

[Bailyn242]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

Besides the fact that Cerberus's only known involvement in the Colony of the Dead was taking Husks away, with no indication that they caused it anymore than any of the other small colonies/outposts indoctrinated and huskified...

Simply because bad things happened in the course of a mission doesn't mean it was a failure. The Reapers getting their hands on civilian Human biotic research wasn't good, but it wasn't a disaster either. The Reapers have countless cycles of biotic knowledge, and a mastery of their own that far exceeds ours: it's not like biotics were ever a secret weapon to beat them.

It certainly didn't invalidate the two other missions of Cerberus during Retribution: conducting a research project to decipher Reaper technology and better understand indoctrination (achieved, as Cerberus retrieved their data, and even Aria and the Alliance now have Reaper tech/data to study), or of stopping Avatar Grayson before he could get away and do real damage to the galaxy as the Reaper's cats-paw.

No one claims the situation was perfect or ideal, but it wasn't a failure.

Really? I must have missed the chapter where they learned how to counter indoctrination? Maybe they figured out how to scan someone for the first stages of indoctrination?No? How about how to disable the reaper implant tech? Oh guess not...

So essentially all they got was a bunch of raw data with no results other than giving the Reapers the location and status of all human biotic research in known space. Nice one. What an epic success! 

Billy Crystal Voice: Mahvelous, Simply Mahvelous.

You really are good for a chuckle. I have a new handle for you, Fumbles for justifications.

[DPSSOC]

wolfsite wrote...
This is a very nice piece of fiction.  Cerberus brought the Dragon's Teeth to that colony and when you show up the entire colony was nothing but Husks.

Source?  It's been a while since Colony of the Dead but I can't recall anything pointing out that it was Cerberus who brought the Dragon's Teeth to the colony.  I know they were involved I'm just wondering as to where you got your info.

[Vaenier]

DPSSOC wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
This is a very nice piece of fiction.  Cerberus brought the Dragon's Teeth to that colony and when you show up the entire colony was nothing but Husks.

Source?  It's been a while since Colony of the Dead but I can't recall anything pointing out that it was Cerberus who brought the Dragon's Teeth to the colony.  I know they were involved I'm just wondering as to where you got your info.

Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

[wolfsite]

DPSSOC wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
This is a very nice piece of fiction.  Cerberus brought the Dragon's Teeth to that colony and when you show up the entire colony was nothing but Husks.

Source?  It's been a while since Colony of the Dead but I can't recall anything pointing out that it was Cerberus who brought the Dragon's Teeth to the colony.  I know they were involved I'm just wondering as to where you got your info.

Playing the game.  There was a Cerberus team there that had no business being there as it was just a small colony (as stated in the report you find) and they did bring several items with them, I kinda doubt a colony just conveniently found the Dragon Teeth on theplanet then impaled themselves for fun.  So 1 of two conclusions.

1 They brought the teeth and experimented on the colonists.

2. Cerberus also brought husks with them and unleashed them on the colony killing them or having them turned into more husks.


The colony was way too small for it to be a Reaper target and it was nowhere near Geth space for the Geth to have anything to do with it.

[DPSSOC]

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

[DPSSOC]

wolfsite wrote...
Playing the game.  There was a Cerberus team there that had no business being there as it was just a small colony (as stated in the report you find) and they did bring several items with them, I kinda doubt a colony just conveniently found the Dragon Teeth on theplanet then impaled themselves for fun.  So 1 of two conclusions.

1 They brought the teeth and experimented on the colonists.

2. Cerberus also brought husks with them and unleashed them on the colony killing them or having them turned into more husks.

The colony was way too small for it to be a Reaper target and it was nowhere near Geth space for the Geth to have anything to do with it.

Or the third option, and this is way out of left field, the research base staff were studying the dragons teeth for Exogeni or the Alliance (or both), Cerberus infiltrated the project, saw that things were going horribly wrong and go their people the hell out of dodge.

[Vaenier]

DPSSOC wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

Miss read that. Ya, cerberus did absolutely nothing at all involving that colony. lols.

[Bailyn242]

DPSSOC wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

Wasn't Feros the one with Geth and Thorian Creepers? I can't recall any husks on Feros, or even Novaria for that matter so how could the Dragon's Teeth come from there? Novaria was Geth and Rachni, again I can't recall to many Dragon's Teeth or Husks.

[wolfsite]

Bailyn242 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

Wasn't Feros the one with Geth and Thorian Creepers? I can't recall any husks on Feros, or even Novaria for that matter so how could the Dragon's Teeth come from there? Novaria was Geth and Rachni, again I can't recall to many Dragon's Teeth or Husks.

Feros was Geth and Thorian Creepers, however it is well known that Soverign did supply the Geth with Dragon Teeth so they could have gotten a hold of them there.  Also note that you find out about the colony by hacking exogeni systems on Feros so just because the info was there doesn't mean that the project originatted there as well.

Also there is no evidence that shows that  Dragons Teeth have the ability to indoctrinate people, any and all changes happen to people after they get impaled on Spikes, if they did indoctrinate people I kinda the the Geth would need to hold them in place.

[ADLegend21]

Tennessee88 wrote...

 For those of us who made our Shepards loyal to Cerberus and TIM, what are your thoughts on Anderson after the attack he coordinated with the Turians against your comrades in arms? Do you still consider him an ally despite his actions, a useful pawn, or a obstacle which needs swift elimination? 

I always liked Anderson, but after those events it confirmed all the reservations I had about him. I didn't think he would have to stones to do what was necessary for humanity. Teaming up with the Turians only compounded those fears. I hate to say it, but if given the opportunity I will have to kill him or allow him to be killed. The only thing that would stay my hand is the fear that it would destroy any hope of manipulating the Alliance to Cerberus's cause. 

I'm getting the most out of all the Mass Effect games so I'll see everything, but in m canon's Adnerson's staying alive. My canon's would take Thanix Cannons to save Keith David Anderson.

[DPSSOC]

Bailyn242 wrote...
Wasn't Feros the one with Geth and Thorian Creepers? I can't recall any husks on Feros, or even Novaria for that matter so how could the Dragon's Teeth come from there? Novaria was Geth and Rachni, again I can't recall to many Dragon's Teeth or Husks.

You are correct.  My best guess is that the Exogeni scientist in question was working on the Chasca project and gave Cerberus samples (whatever those may be) but was then transferred to Feros before things got terrible.  He or she brought their personal logs with them and that's what you found.  To be honest I just stopped looking at things like that too closely.

[DPSSOC]

wolfsite wrote...
Also there is no evidence that shows that  Dragons Teeth have the ability to indoctrinate people, any and all changes happen to people after they get impaled on Spikes, if they did indoctrinate people I kinda the the Geth would need to hold them in place.

Except for the instances where people throw themselves on the things?  Indoctrination takes time, the Geth (on Eden Prime) needed shock troops now.

[Jagri]

I don't know if there is a link between Dragons Teeth and self impalement without a source of indoctrination near however it seems they did it to themselves on the one of the colony missions.

Modifié par Jagri, 15 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[Sajuro]

wolfsite wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

Wasn't Feros the one with Geth and Thorian Creepers? I can't recall any husks on Feros, or even Novaria for that matter so how could the Dragon's Teeth come from there? Novaria was Geth and Rachni, again I can't recall to many Dragon's Teeth or Husks.

Feros was Geth and Thorian Creepers, however it is well known that Soverign did supply the Geth with Dragon Teeth so they could have gotten a hold of them there.  Also note that you find out about the colony by hacking exogeni systems on Feros so just because the info was there doesn't mean that the project originatted there as well.

Also there is no evidence that shows that  Dragons Teeth have the ability to indoctrinate people, any and all changes happen to people after they get impaled on Spikes, if they did indoctrinate people I kinda the the Geth would need to hold them in place.

What about the researchers who became machine cultists? I doubt they would have hopped up on the spikes and become husks if they weren't under some influence.

[wolfsite]

DPSSOC wrote...

wolfsite wrote...
Also there is no evidence that shows that  Dragons Teeth have the ability to indoctrinate people, any and all changes happen to people after they get impaled on Spikes, if they did indoctrinate people I kinda the the Geth would need to hold them in place.

Except for the instances where people throw themselves on the things?  Indoctrination takes time, the Geth (on Eden Prime) needed shock troops now.

Sorry but there is no proof that Dragons Teeth Indrocrinate and no proof anyone has ever impaled themselves.  You are the only person who has ever brought this up from what I have seen and you have not shown any evidence from another source to support it.

[wolfsite]

Sajuro wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
Cerberus gives Exogeni the Dragons Teeth for them to research and figure out how they work.

http://masseffect.wi...ony_of_the_Dead

Mass Effect wiki wrote...

While on Feros you found the personal log of an ExoGeni employee. The doctor's notes seem to express some concern about samples they provided to a group he referred to only as Cerberus.

Now I read that as Exogeni (or at least an employee) gave Cerberus samples (active husks? dragons teeth?).  Cerberus was on the receiving end.

Vaenier wrote...
How it is Cerberus' fault that the teeth had latent indoctrination abilities or Exogeni couldnt maintain any basic containment protocols is beyoond me.

One of the great mysteries I suppose, like how they get the caramel into the caramilk bar or what the oil of olay seven signs of aging are.

Wasn't Feros the one with Geth and Thorian Creepers? I can't recall any husks on Feros, or even Novaria for that matter so how could the Dragon's Teeth come from there? Novaria was Geth and Rachni, again I can't recall to many Dragon's Teeth or Husks.

Feros was Geth and Thorian Creepers, however it is well known that Soverign did supply the Geth with Dragon Teeth so they could have gotten a hold of them there.  Also note that you find out about the colony by hacking exogeni systems on Feros so just because the info was there doesn't mean that the project originatted there as well.

Also there is no evidence that shows that  Dragons Teeth have the ability to indoctrinate people, any and all changes happen to people after they get impaled on Spikes, if they did indoctrinate people I kinda the the Geth would need to hold them in place.

What about the researchers who became machine cultists? I doubt they would have hopped up on the spikes and become husks if they weren't under some influence.

Sorry for double posts, the Machine cultist thing was suggested by one of your teamates yet there is no evidence to show they were machine cultists.  There is an alter in the cavern that is an exact match for the Alters the Geth use to worship the reapers however so that kind of implies that were under the influence of something else.  It is also stated the actual artifact they found was missing so someone must have came and reclaimed the item - they may also have been the ones who turned the team into husks as well-, since we don't know what that item was it is possible that is what caused the trouble.

But based on the Alter and that the artifact recovered by the team is missing it is very possible that the Geth showed up and turned the survey team into husks and left them to attack anyone who came looking for the team or what the uncovered.

[Sajuro]

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what do you think would be the ramifications of killing Anderson in ME3? The Turians (and probably the other alien governments) knew he gave them information on Cerberus. To a great many people, he is probably a war hero. Not to speak of the tension that could cause between you and Joker or the VS (especially if it is Kaiden)

[jbblue05]

Sajuro wrote...

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what do you think would be the ramifications of killing Anderson in ME3? The Turians (and probably the other alien governments) knew he gave them information on Cerberus. To a great many people, he is probably a war hero. Not to speak of the tension that could cause between you and Joker or the VS (especially if it is Kaiden)

Anderson is a respected war hero if he wasn't he would be facing the firing squad for treason
But................
Anderson is a pariah within the Alliance.and a traitor to the human race. 
The VS and Joker will fall in line

[Tennessee88]

I am not surprised to see this thread fall into the Cerberus vs. goody goodies debate. Arguing of the morality of Cerberus among the forum regulars have proved only one thing... our varying scales of morality prevent us from reconciling our differences.



Some of you are likely horrified that I would end Anderson's life without a moments hesitation. I hope bioware gives me the opportunity, and I hope its a tragic and weighty event that lingers with me for the next few hours of gameplay.



Cerberus might be reaching for air in many places, and many times they do so while committing horrifying acts. But they are at least reaching, trying to understand, doing whatever it takes no matter the cost. When preventing complete and total genocide is on the table... well that changes things.