502 réponses à ce sujet

[Sajuro]

jbblue05 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what do you think would be the ramifications of killing Anderson in ME3? The Turians (and probably the other alien governments) knew he gave them information on Cerberus. To a great many people, he is probably a war hero. Not to speak of the tension that could cause between you and Joker or the VS (especially if it is Kaiden)

Anderson is a respected war hero if he wasn't he would be facing the firing squad for treason
But................
Anderson is a pariah within the Alliance.and a traitor to the human race. 
The VS and Joker will fall in line

What about the Turians and possible Alien allies? Anderson (if you chose him as councilor) is the only one in ME2 on the citadel who goes to bat for you, and to see you kill him because he crossed Cerberus would be removing any possible remaining doubts that your shepard is working for people they see as terrorists, I could see Shepard being declared rogue by the original council if they are still alive and shep did that. Maybe even by the new council, but we never saw anything of them.

[DPSSOC]

I don't know that I could kill Anderson, I mean even my Cerberus Loyalists acknowledge that he's had my back for a long time. On the other hand I could remember that he witheld the fact I was under investigation by the Alliance, and that he put the woman I love in harms way just to draw me out, and that he wouldn't actually back me this time, and you know it's getting easier. I'd still feel bad about it but I think I could do it.

[Tennessee88]

Sajuro wrote...

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what do you think would be the ramifications of killing Anderson in ME3? The Turians (and probably the other alien governments) knew he gave them information on Cerberus. To a great many people, he is probably a war hero. Not to speak of the tension that could cause between you and Joker or the VS (especially if it is Kaiden)

I think the ramifications should perhaps be much more of a personal emotional experience for those of us who are veterans. And hopefully if it is a choice set among a series of choices with a greater ramification. It would be interesting if you had to kill the VS to get directly to Anderson (he or she acting as a bodyguard). This conflict would really allow Bioware to write a story which enabled players to explore just how much they would destroy to serve their cause. 

I really liked Anderson and Ashley, but would kill them both I am afraid if it meant saving Cerberus or allowing humanity to become the dominant force in the galaxy. 

[Sajuro]

Tennessee88 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I don't know if this has been addressed, but what do you think would be the ramifications of killing Anderson in ME3? The Turians (and probably the other alien governments) knew he gave them information on Cerberus. To a great many people, he is probably a war hero. Not to speak of the tension that could cause between you and Joker or the VS (especially if it is Kaiden)

I think the ramifications should perhaps be much more of a personal emotional experience for those of us who are veterans. And hopefully if it is a choice set among a series of choices with a greater ramification. It would be interesting if you had to kill the VS to get directly to Anderson (he or she acting as a bodyguard). This conflict would really allow Bioware to write a story which enabled players to explore just how much they would destroy to serve their cause. 

I really liked Anderson and Ashley, but would kill them both I am afraid if it meant saving Cerberus or allowing humanity to become the dominant force in the galaxy. 

Would a broken or disillusioned shepard ending be possible? Because if so, I think it would be brilliant to see just how far sheps would go like you said.

[jbblue05]

Sajuro wrote...

What about the Turians and possible Alien allies? Anderson (if you chose him as councilor) is the only one in ME2 on the citadel who goes to bat for you, and to see you kill him because he crossed Cerberus would be removing any possible remaining doubts that your shepard is working for people they see as terrorists, I could see Shepard being declared rogue by the original council if they are still alive and shep did that. Maybe even by the new council, but we never saw anything of them.

The Turians won't care if Anderson is killed.  After the events of Retribution the Turians look like heroes and the Alliance have a dark shadow cast upon them.  Alien allies will just move on, remember Anderson quit on the Council and the Alliance.

Anderson even as a Councilor is not respected and the other Councilors walk all over him, I didn't expect much from Anderson as a politician because he's a man of action not a man that sits behind a desk,..
I will gladly kill Anderson because he tried to destroy the only people helping me stop the Reapers, betrayed the Alliance and strengthen a political, economic, and military rival.
Anderson's idealism could and probably spark a war with the Alliance and Turian Heiarvhy just to take out a MINOR threat in Cerberus.

The Council can;'t trust the Alliance after the events of Retribution.  Their first human spectre is working with Cerberus and High-ranking Alliance officials are labeled terrorists.

The Alliance as a whole is rogue...

[AdmiralCheez]

Tennessee88 wrote...

I am not surprised to see this thread fall into the Cerberus vs. goody goodies debate. Arguing of the morality of Cerberus among the forum regulars have proved only one thing... our varying scales of morality prevent us from reconciling our differences.

Yep.  Sorry about that.  But I don't appreciate being called a "goody goody."

Some of you are likely horrified that I would end Anderson's life without a moments hesitation. I hope bioware gives me the opportunity, and I hope its a tragic and weighty event that lingers with me for the next few hours of gameplay.

I wouldn't.  No matter how douchey a Shepard I was playing, my own sense of right and wrong (plus a little loyalty to the one guy that supported you no matter what) would prevent me from doing so.  However, this does not mean the option should not be available.  In fact, it's a conflict I want to see addressed.

Cerberus might be reaching for air in many places, and many times they do so while committing horrifying acts. But they are at least reaching, trying to understand, doing whatever it takes no matter the cost. When preventing complete and total genocide is on the table... well that changes things.

Cerberus's goal--the "advancement of humanity"--is hardly a noble one.  If they restricted themselves to working for greater political representation, curing diseases, and researching new technologies, I wouldn't mind them.  As it is, they seek not equality for humanity, but supremacy.  They research sinister weaponry, perform horrific experiments, and assassinate anyone that doesn't agree with them.  I can't support that.  Furthermore, even though their resources are valuable and personnel experienced, I do not believe they are worth fostering an alliance with.  Even though the Illusive Man has sworn to fight the Reapers, I do not trust him to botch the whole operation by trying to one-up the aliens and trigger a genocidal backlash.

Anyway, enough sidetracky blah blah.  Point is, I respect Anderson, traitor or no.

[Tennessee88]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tennessee88 wrote...

I am not surprised to see this thread fall into the Cerberus vs. goody goodies debate. Arguing of the morality of Cerberus among the forum regulars have proved only one thing... our varying scales of morality prevent us from reconciling our differences.

Yep.  Sorry about that.  But I don't appreciate being called a "goody goody."

Some of you are likely horrified that I would end Anderson's life without a moments hesitation. I hope bioware gives me the opportunity, and I hope its a tragic and weighty event that lingers with me for the next few hours of gameplay.

I wouldn't.  No matter how douchey a Shepard I was playing, my own sense of right and wrong (plus a little loyalty to the one guy that supported you no matter what) would prevent me from doing so.  However, this does not mean the option should not be available.  In fact, it's a conflict I want to see addressed.

Cerberus might be reaching for air in many places, and many times they do so while committing horrifying acts. But they are at least reaching, trying to understand, doing whatever it takes no matter the cost. When preventing complete and total genocide is on the table... well that changes things.

Cerberus's goal--the "advancement of humanity"--is hardly a noble one.  If they restricted themselves to working for greater political representation, curing diseases, and researching new technologies, I wouldn't mind them.  As it is, they seek not equality for humanity, but supremacy.  They research sinister weaponry, perform horrific experiments, and assassinate anyone that doesn't agree with them.  I can't support that.  Furthermore, even though their resources are valuable and personnel experienced, I do not believe they are worth fostering an alliance with.  Even though the Illusive Man has sworn to fight the Reapers, I do not trust him to botch the whole operation by trying to one-up the aliens and trigger a genocidal backlash.

Anyway, enough sidetracky blah blah.  Point is, I respect Anderson, traitor or no.

Just messing with you goody goodies when I called yall goody goodies. I was simply stating that these two differing factions that are prominent on the forums are never going to agree simply because we disagree on one central point. I see the advancement of humanity as noble, you do not. All there is too it. 

[Bailyn242]

jbblue05 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

What about the Turians and possible Alien allies? Anderson (if you chose him as councilor) is the only one in ME2 on the citadel who goes to bat for you, and to see you kill him because he crossed Cerberus would be removing any possible remaining doubts that your shepard is working for people they see as terrorists, I could see Shepard being declared rogue by the original council if they are still alive and shep did that. Maybe even by the new council, but we never saw anything of them.

The Turians won't care if Anderson is killed.  After the events of Retribution the Turians look like heroes and the Alliance have a dark shadow cast upon them.  Alien allies will just move on, remember Anderson quit on the Council and the Alliance.

Anderson even as a Councilor is not respected and the other Councilors walk all over him, I didn't expect much from Anderson as a politician because he's a man of action not a man that sits behind a desk,..
I will gladly kill Anderson because he tried to destroy the only people helping me stop the Reapers, betrayed the Alliance and strengthen a political, economic, and military rival.
Anderson's idealism could and probably spark a war with the Alliance and Turian Heiarvhy just to take out a MINOR threat in Cerberus.

The Council can;'t trust the Alliance after the events of Retribution.  Their first human spectre is working with Cerberus and High-ranking Alliance officials are labeled terrorists.

The Alliance as a whole is rogue...

That is more a case of 2 years of consistent undermining by Udina than anything else. That's my only problem with Anderson, he never fired Udina and promoted someone into that post the first time he deliberately undermined Anderson's position.

BTW, Anderson managed to stand up to the Council just fine when they trotted out the Cerberus = Death Penalty comment. We've never seen how much his pull has been restored with Shep's return. Hopefully the bridge DLC will give us some better perspective there.

[nevar00]

I would find it hard to side with Cerberus after doing the side missions in the first game involving them... that was one problem I had with how they addressed Cerberus. If you do all the assignments in the first game, you find out how they used rachni, husks, creepers, and even worse, killed Kohoju and his squad, and of course there's the whole Toombs thing. They hardly addressed these at all.

The Toombs story was horribly addressed, ESPECIALLY if you have the sole survivor background. You find out Cerberus killed your entire squad but you and one other, who was captured and tortured for years? And you can't even bring it up to the Illusive Man or anyone, and the game just acts as if it never happened!? what is this I dont even... I expected better from Bioware tbh, it's not like them to completely ignore a storyline.

Modifié par nevar00, 15 février 2011 - 04:03 .

[jbblue05]

Bailyn242 wrote...

That is more a case of 2 years of consistent undermining by Udina than anything else. That's my only problem with Anderson, he never fired Udina and promoted someone into that post the first time he deliberately undermined Anderson's position.

BTW, Anderson managed to stand up to the Council just fine when they trotted out the Cerberus = Death Penalty comment. We've never seen how much his pull has been restored with Shep's return. Hopefully the bridge DLC will give us some better perspective there.

Anderson keeps Udina around because Anderson has no clue what he's doing.
How is it Udina's fault Udina doesn't speak for Anderson, Anderson speaks for himself.
You do realize the Alliance made Udina their ambassador to the Council,
Where is your evidence that Udina is undermining Anderson? Or is it evil Udina betraying good Anderson,

The Council never had the intention of the Death penalty because if they did C-sec would strip Shepard of his weapons and arrest Shepard right on the spot.
Anderson will speak his mind but he doesn't gain any friends on the Council for it.

[Tennessee88]

Bailyn242 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

What about the Turians and possible Alien allies? Anderson (if you chose him as councilor) is the only one in ME2 on the citadel who goes to bat for you, and to see you kill him because he crossed Cerberus would be removing any possible remaining doubts that your shepard is working for people they see as terrorists, I could see Shepard being declared rogue by the original council if they are still alive and shep did that. Maybe even by the new council, but we never saw anything of them.

The Turians won't care if Anderson is killed.  After the events of Retribution the Turians look like heroes and the Alliance have a dark shadow cast upon them.  Alien allies will just move on, remember Anderson quit on the Council and the Alliance.

Anderson even as a Councilor is not respected and the other Councilors walk all over him, I didn't expect much from Anderson as a politician because he's a man of action not a man that sits behind a desk,..
I will gladly kill Anderson because he tried to destroy the only people helping me stop the Reapers, betrayed the Alliance and strengthen a political, economic, and military rival.
Anderson's idealism could and probably spark a war with the Alliance and Turian Heiarvhy just to take out a MINOR threat in Cerberus.

The Council can;'t trust the Alliance after the events of Retribution.  Their first human spectre is working with Cerberus and High-ranking Alliance officials are labeled terrorists.

The Alliance as a whole is rogue...

That is more a case of 2 years of consistent undermining by Udina than anything else. That's my only problem with Anderson, he never fired Udina and promoted someone into that post the first time he deliberately undermined Anderson's position.

BTW, Anderson managed to stand up to the Council just fine when they trotted out the Cerberus = Death Penalty comment. We've never seen how much his pull has been restored with Shep's return. Hopefully the bridge DLC will give us some better perspective there.

I promoted Udina to head of the council so this was never a problem for me. I knew my guy would vindicate that decision. He might be a backstabbing weasel, but I can trust him to be a backstabbing weasel who always makes sure humanity gets what they deserve and more. 

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
nations.

Thus disproving their prior operating assumption. However, until they could discover this, they could not act on this knowledge

I am sure this knowledge existed.(they didnt know that rachni without their mother went insane...)

Just cerberus operatives were to dumb and arrogant to accept that. Not the first time they underestimated danger.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 février 2011 - 08:38 .

[tonnactus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...


All that said, I don't criticize Anderson for cleaning house of the Alliance. I do criticize him for his over-opposition against the one faction in the galaxy that he would know has been actively opposing the Reapers, before the Reapers have been dealt with, and when he knows that neither the Alliance or the Council have their own significant Reaper-research projects underway.

Its shepardt who got the job done.Not cerberus who just gave the ressources.There is an better alternative for this after Lair of Shadowbroker anyway.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 février 2011 - 08:43 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Wulfram wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Cerberus aren't really a benefit to fighting the reapers.  They lack the resources to be meaningful by themselves, and they discredit the cause in the eyes of the rest of the galaxy.

Paragon thinking at its brilliance:

We, the Galaxy of Good, find the idea of figting the Reapers bad, because that's what Cerberus wants. Since Cerberus wants it, survival is discredited.

Overrated, dear Paragons! Your survival is definitely overrated!!!

The thinking I'm concerned about is more that people will believe that the Reapers are Human/Cerberus propaganda.  If the galaxy thinks the Reapers are a fantasy, that's a problem.  If the galaxy thinks they're a cover for Cerberus actions, that's a disaster.
The second most prominent Reaper believer helping the Turians give Cerberus a kicking should help counter that idea.

Yeah, right... Attacking the single organization that believes Shepard about the Reapers is going to do a great deal towards making the Turians believe Shepard about the Reapers.

Like I said, paragon thinking is brilliant!

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success?

It was Anderson's fault. His witless and treasonous actions allowed for Grayson to break loose. Then it was Aria, who thought she was smarter than the Illusive Man and altered the plan to eliminate Grayson on Omega.

So much is explained in my thread about how Retribution was Cerberus success against all odds.

Bailyn242 wrote...

Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

Lolwut? I can see you're trying to insult me, pal. But normally, when people do that, they tend to be more clear about which of my outstanding qualities they find so offensive. But... "ostrich"... "invisible"... I'm f*cking curious, what was that even supposed to mean, when it popped up in your head?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 mars 2011 - 10:09 .

[Wulfram]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, right... Attacking the single organization that believes Shepard about the Reapers is going to do a great deal towards making the Turians believe Shepard about the Reapers.

Like I said, paragon thinking is brilliant!

It's certainly going to do a great deal more to towards that than becoming a Cerberus collaborator yourself, which is the other option.

[darknoon5]

Zulu, don't blame Anderson entirely for Grayson getting free. TIM really badly underestimated him. His only plan to kill him was Kai Leng, and it's clear by the time of the attack, Grayson was powerful enough to have mopped the floor with Kai Leng. Grayson may well have gotten free anyway, and definitely would not have been killed by Kai Leng.

[AkiKishi]

Tennessee88 wrote...
Just messing with you goody goodies when I called yall goody goodies. I was simply stating that these two differing factions that are prominent on the forums are never going to agree simply because we disagree on one central point. I see the advancement of humanity as noble, you do not. All there is too it. 

Nothing wrong with the advancement of humanity. It's the dominance of humanity. That sets humanity on a path to war and it's a war they have a snowballs chance of surviving.

As we have seen the council races are utterly ruthless when pushed.

[Zulu_DFA]

darknoon5 wrote...

Zulu, don't blame Anderson entirely for Grayson getting free. TIM really badly underestimated him. His only plan to kill him was Kai Leng, and it's clear by the time of the attack, Grayson was powerful enough to have mopped the floor with Kai Leng. Grayson may well have gotten free anyway, and definitely would not have been killed by Kai Leng.

This is all a baseless supposition.

But OK, let's play "What Ifs". Sure, TIM was in full controll of his Idiot Ball (if he wasn't, he'd have had Grayson in a cell that would fill with some fancy sci-fi napalm in case of emergency). But really, as the book says, Grayson was gaining power after he broke free. He only managed to kill the Turians on the shuttle, because they were treating him as a liberated POW and not an environmental hazard. Kai Leng wouldn't have had any trouble killing him because the initiative would have been his.

Sorry, but when it comes down to measuring Idiot Balls, Anderson's and Turians' ones prove to be far bigger than that of TIM and Cerberus.

Wulfram wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yeah, right... Attacking the single organization that believes Shepard about the Reapers is going to do a great deal towards making the Turians believe Shepard about the Reapers.

Like I said, paragon thinking is brilliant!

It's certainly going to do a great deal more to towards that than becoming a Cerberus collaborator yourself, which is the other option.

Keep thinking, my dear Paragon. May be you're right, and the Turians can't use logic either.

Reapers is Cerbs' 'ganda! We attacks Cerbs! Must be some Reapers out there!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[Wulfram]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Keep thinking, my dear Paragon. May be you're right, and the Turians can't use logic either.

Reapers is Cerbs' 'ganda! We attacks Cerbs! Must be some Reapers out there!

So you think allying yourself with the Turians enemies is the best way to get them on your side?
Or do you think that TIM's merry band of rascals are an adequate substitute for the leading military superpower of the Galaxy?

Even not believing in the Reapers, the Turians did more to prepare by researching the Thanix cannons than Cerberus has ever done.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wulfram wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Keep thinking, my dear Paragon. May be you're right, and the Turians can't use logic either.

Reapers is Cerbs' 'ganda! We attacks Cerbs! Must be some Reapers out there!

So you think allying yourself with the Turians enemies is the best way to get them on your side?
Or do you think that TIM's merry band of rascals are an adequate substitute for the leading military superpower of the Galaxy?

Even not believing in the Reapers, the Turians did more to prepare by researching the Thanix cannons than Cerberus has ever done.

Ah, yes, "Thanix Cannon"... A gameplay mechanic creating a possible fatality point during the final mission of Mass Effect 2, the video game... We have dismissed that claim.

And, on a completely irrelevant note, the Thanix cannons won't serve the "leading military superpower" any good, when the "merry band of TIM's rascals" will come at them in stealth frigates, each armed with an E.D.I., and fry those Thanix cannons targetting computers.

So yeah, I'm sticking with the merry band, because it is also the clever one.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 février 2011 - 12:23 .

[Gnoster]

Question from someone who hasn't read any of the novels: Is it confirmed that ME3 story takes the novels into effect?

Asking because that would really mean that one "really should" read them before playing ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

wolfsite wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bailyn242 wrote...

So you regard giving all the information on Human Biotics at Ascension to the Reapers as a success? Or the death of an entire Colony (UNC: Colony of the Dead) a success? Otayyyy Mr Ostrich. See much with your head that deep in the ground? You do know you aren't invisible right kiddo?

Besides the fact that Cerberus's only known involvement in the Colony of the Dead was taking Husks away, with no indication that they caused it anymore than any of the other small colonies/outposts indoctrinated and huskified...

Simply because bad things happened in the course of a mission doesn't mean it was a failure. The Reapers getting their hands on civilian Human biotic research wasn't good, but it wasn't a disaster either. The Reapers have countless cycles of biotic knowledge, and a mastery of their own that far exceeds ours: it's not like biotics were ever a secret weapon to beat them.

It certainly didn't invalidate the two other missions of Cerberus during Retribution: conducting a research project to decipher Reaper technology and better understand indoctrination (achieved, as Cerberus retrieved their data, and even Aria and the Alliance now have Reaper tech/data to study), or of stopping Avatar Grayson before he could get away and do real damage to the galaxy as the Reaper's cats-paw.

No one claims the situation was perfect or ideal, but it wasn't a failure.

This is a very nice piece of fiction.  Cerberus brought the Dragon's Teeth to that colony

*Citation needed

Cerberus was responsible and on top of that there is no known purpose or data to show that they gained any information from it.

A lack of evidence is not evidence of lack: popular fallacy, but true.

  Miranda even referred to this as well as the Rachni and Creepers as mistakes meaning they died for nothing.

That doesn't mean that at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Keep thinking, my dear Paragon. May be you're right, and the Turians can't use logic either.

Reapers is Cerbs' 'ganda! We attacks Cerbs! Must be some Reapers out there!

So you think allying yourself with the Turians enemies is the best way to get them on your side?
Or do you think that TIM's merry band of rascals are an adequate substitute for the leading military superpower of the Galaxy?

Are you honestly going to argue that, in the face of galactic extinction looming over their head, the Turians won't cooperate if Cerberus is on board against the Reapers?

Because otherwise, there is no inherent if/else delimma.

Even not believing in the Reapers, the Turians did more to prepare by researching the Thanix cannons than Cerberus has ever done.

Which, of course, is why the Turians were necessary in stopping the Reapers active proxy in the galaxy, and Cerberus was not.

[wolfsite]

Got to love how the Pro Cerberus people just "Dismiss" anything that damages there side of the arguement.  I see they learned a lot from the Turian Councilor