450 réponses à ce sujet

[NICKjnp]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Sable Phoenix wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Ummm...I don't ever remember seeing that in the codex. And you are talking to the Morinth (the only in game Ardat-Yakshi) fan group leader.

It's in the ME1 Codex.  It may not be in the ME2 Codex, I'm not sure because I only read the new entries in that one, not the stuff transferred over from 1.

The Ardat-Yakshi are not in the ME1 Codex.

That codex entry has nothing to do with the Ardat-Yakshi, it is in the ME1 Codex entries about the asari in general.

I'm going to walk away from this conversation because now you aren't making any sense.

[jlb524]

Sentox6 wrote...

Hold on. The problem is that you're defining them as lesbians in the sense that they are exclusively attracted to other females. Yet, prior to contact with other species, there were no males in existence. Such a definition is meaningless. You can postulate that they've evolved a preference for what ostensibly female by our standards, but the word 'lesbian' as we understand it is misnomer.

Oh, silly me...lesbianism can't be defined without men.

What if we met an alien species with three genders?  One that looked a lot like our male, one that looked a lot like our female, and one that looked like some very odd combination of the two and even had two heads!

Does that render our definitions sexuality meaningless?

I'm not sure what the asari actually called themselves back in the day when they only mated with one another, from an in-universe perspective.  From a meta-perspective and with using our own human terms (which is what we do when analyzing fiction from this perspective) they were what we would call 'lesbian'.

[tmk]

jeweledleah wrote...
who said they only pair up with alien males?  they pair up with aliens, period. they even call another asari donor - father, that doesn't imply actual gender of a father.

Yea, well, the only in-game example of pairing asari with non-male alien is Morinth/Nef. And the only known asari/asari pairing is Benezia/Aethyta, which apparently fell apart simply by the virtue of being an asari/asari pairing.

Well, actually have Erinya who is a bitter borderline racist (and just happened to have lost her entire pureblood family).

Well, and also in DA:O (spoilers) we have Hespith who is betrayed by a fanatic nutjob Branka, and Leliana who is used and then framed by a paranoid manipulator Marjolaine.

You know, you can draw all kinds of in-character justifications, but certain patterns are starting to emerge regarding portrayal of same/sex relationships. And, as they say, implications are not pleasant.

[Sentox6]

jlb524 wrote...
Oh, silly me...lesbianism can't be defined without men.

Don't even try to pull that on me. You're the one tying the definition of 'lesbian' to men by asserting that Asari relationships with males mean they are no longer "space lesbians" and therefore embody the Every Woman Needs a Man trope.

[jeweledleah]

yes, because you're looking for those patterns. its possible to find something offensive in anything, absolutely anything if you look long enough.

but what I'm personally seeing here is that some of you simply don't want Liara (or Morinth/Samara) to get together with maleshep and be available to femshep only.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 14 février 2011 - 09:44 .

[Kronner]

jeweledleah wrote...

but what I'm personally seeing here is that some of you simply don't want Liara (or Morinth/Samara) to get together with maleshep and be available to femshep only.

Same here. It's just sad.

[tmk]

Sentox6 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Oh, silly me...lesbianism can't be defined without men.

Don't even try to pull that on me. You're the one tying the definition of 'lesbian' to men by asserting that Asari relationships with males mean they are no longer "space lesbians" and therefore embody the Every Woman Needs a Man trope.

I.e. "don't try to give me arguments that make sense"? 

[tmk]

jeweledleah wrote...
yes, because you're looking for those patterns. its possible to find something offensive in anything, absolutely anything if you look long enough.

Well show me a positive pattern, for a change. That's the main problem here, really. Sure, fine, not all same-sex relationships work out perfectly, just like cross-sex ones. But maybe show us more of those that do, to balance things out a bit?

but what I'm personally seeing here is that some of you simply don't want Liara (or Morinth/Samara) to get together with maleshep and be available to femshep only.

Some of us, possibly. And some of us would see it as a nice start if at least not ALL asari were shown paired with men (with the exception of those whose relationship ended in misery to reinforce some broken Aesop).

[netfire_]

Sentox6 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Oh, silly me...lesbianism can't be defined without men.

Don't even try to pull that on me. You're the one tying the definition of 'lesbian' to men by asserting that Asari relationships with males mean they are no longer "space lesbians" and therefore embody the Every Woman Needs a Man trope.

Actually it would be a daoist definition. Something is what it is partly because of what it is not.

[Sandbox47]

Well actually there is no point for humans to feel good about sex either but we do to encourage sex so that babies can pop out and continue our race. I mean yes, when a woman climaxes it makes it easier to accept a man's sperm but the same could be achieved without the pleasure. Just visit Africa.

I think that it's just a treat from nature. "Well, your limbs aren't that strong and you have no exterior protection but hey..! You can... have good sex."

Yeah, I didn't read the previous posts. Only page one and that's pretty much what I continue.

[Sentox6]

tmk wrote...
I.e. "don't try to give me arguments that make sense"? 

By all means, I'd love to see an argument that makes sense.

Sandbox47 wrote...

Well actually there is no point for humans to feel good about sex either but we do to encourage sex so that
babies can pop out and continue our race. I mean yes, when a woman climaxes it makes it easier to accept a man's sperm but the same could be achieved without the pleasure. Just visit Africa.

Care to elaborate on this?

Modifié par Sentox6, 14 février 2011 - 09:58 .

[wizardryforever]

I think some of us are forgetting that the Asari only have one gender, and thus human sexuality, based on two genders, doesn't apply.  They can't have hetero or ****** relationships because there is only one gender.  I would imagine then that the Asari really don't care at all about the gender of their partner.  They care more about personality and character than they do about looks.  If they didn't they would always be with the same type of people.  When you talk to Aethyta on Illium, she mentions finding solace in whatever arms will hold you.  I would suppose then that this is how the Asari feel for the most part.  Add in the fact that the Asari have had contact with aliens for millenia now and it is not hard to understand how preferences gradually changed to favor the aliens over their own kind.  At first it was something exotic and possibly taboo, then through popular belief, they realized that the children of the alien pairings were special in ways that purebloods were not.  They then jump to the conclusion that these alien pairings are adding something that pureblood couplings lack.  Is this conclusion factual?  No, but it does make sense why they would think this, and alien pairings became encouraged to the point that it is now looked down upon if you have a pureblood daughter.  This happened gradually, over the course of millenia, not overnight once they encountered aliens.  It is the result of carefully guided social cues that aliens are hot, and you're weird for finding your own kind hot.  There is nothing biological about this, it is purely sociological.  Nurture instead of nature.

[Raanz]

Xilizhra wrote...

After pondering it with a few of my friends, I've come to the conclusion that there's no logical reason for asari to be equipped for penetrative sex. Granted, many will say that there's no logical reason for the asari to be, period, and they wouldn't be totally wrong; personally, I believe they were artificially engineered by someone. However, even with that, considering that their reproductive processes are mostly mental and they bred with each other for thousands of years, they have absolutely no need to be receptive to penises.

Thus, I contend that the asari birth canal, though located in a similar spot to the human one, is not a pleasure zone or adapted for penetration. It's possibly comparable to the human cervix, a valve meant to enable passage only one way; even if it wasn't actually painful for anything to enter it, it'd likely be odd and uncomfortable.

And so I pose this question to Maleshep/Liara fans: if this was true and you couldn't engage in penetration (keeping in mind that there are several other ways to engage in physical pleasure as seen with Femshep), would you stay with her or would you move on to a human (or quarian) LI?

Sorry if my reply is late in the conversation, but might I pose a similar question to all of the FemSheps.  Would you be so inclined to be so adamant about Liara if the Asari were a mono-gendered species that resembled the human male but instead of hair they had these sleaky tubes for hair?
By default, the fiction of mass effect presents an assumption that Asari resemble human females biologically and although they do not need intercourse to reproduce, they do pocess mammory glands, small waists, nice hips and an awesome arse, why wouldn't you assume they also pocess the other working parts?

I think an early poster put it so well: the Asari are a fan service...one that seemed to work really well. 

[Sentox6]

rynluna wrote...
I can't speak for everyone else but I can personally say, I wish that Liara would have been a f/f only option.  My opinion is that it makes more sense to me for her to be attracted to FemShep than MaleShep.  It didn't turn out that way however and of course I have the right to state my preference and voice my opinion that the MaleShep pairing doesn't make much sense.

Personally, I'm onboard with this.

It's the allegations that the Asari are an offensive subversion of lesbianism that reinforce the notion of women needing men that I object to.

[jlb524]

Sentox6 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Oh, silly me...lesbianism can't be defined without men.

Don't even try to pull that on me. You're the one tying the definition of 'lesbian' to men by asserting that Asari relationships with males mean they are no longer "space lesbians" and therefore embody the Every Woman Needs a Man trope.

Women that love other women = lesbian

Women that love other women and then start to love men = not lesbian

[tmk]

Sentox6 wrote...
By all means, I'd love to see an argument that makes sense.

Ok, then what's your problem with the one you quoted. When a female-only race suddenly jumps to only dating male aliens (with some unfortunate exceptions that never really work out all that well), they are no longer much of space lesbians, are they? When this transition is simply postulated without plausible explanation, well, it literally starts to look like bull**** asspull. Which is what people are getting pissed about.

[jlb524]

Kronner wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

but what I'm personally seeing here is that some of you simply don't want Liara (or Morinth/Samara) to get together with maleshep and be available to femshep only.

Same here. It's just sad.

Yeah, it would just really make sense.

Similar to how the vast majority of ME LIs are only available to one gender, but most of you don't have a problem with that of course

[Kronner]

wizardryforever wrote...

I think some of us are forgetting that the Asari only have one gender, and thus human sexuality, based on two genders, doesn't apply.  They can't have hetero or ****** relationships because there is only one gender.  I would imagine then that the Asari really don't care at all about the gender of their partner.  They care more about personality and character than they do about looks.  If they didn't they would always be with the same type of people.  When you talk to Aethyta on Illium, she mentions finding solace in whatever arms will hold you.  I would suppose then that this is how the Asari feel for the most part.  Add in the fact that the Asari have had contact with aliens for millenia now and it is not hard to understand how preferences gradually changed to favor the aliens over their own kind.  At first it was something exotic and possibly taboo, then through popular belief, they realized that the children of the alien pairings were special in ways that purebloods were not.  They then jump to the conclusion that these alien pairings are adding something that pureblood couplings lack.  Is this conclusion factual?  No, but it does make sense why they would think this, and alien pairings became encouraged to the point that it is now looked down upon if you have a pureblood daughter.  This happened gradually, over the course of millenia, not overnight once they encountered aliens.  It is the result of carefully guided social cues that aliens are hot, and you're weird for finding your own kind hot.  There is nothing biological about this, it is purely sociological.  Nurture instead of nature.

Bravo!

jlb524 wrote...

Women that love other women = lesbian

Women that love other women and then start to love men = not lesbian

You once again do not account for the fact that asari are mono-gendered. The term woman means nothing to them.

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, it would just really make sense.

Similar to how the vast majority of ME LIs are only available to one gender, but most of you don't have a problem with that of course [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Why not male Shepard then? How do you decide that with a mono-gendered species? I guess you are gonna repeat the asari = lesbian line, which is just incorrect.
Most LIs are only available to one gender, but that is because not everyone is gay, hard to believe..

Modifié par Kronner, 14 février 2011 - 10:07 .

[Sentox6]

jlb524 wrote...

Women that love other women = lesbian

Women that love other women and then start to love men = not lesbian

Then I still assert that your definition of lesbian is tied to men, which is why I objected to you trying to subvert me on this point. That's all.

tmk wrote...

Ok, then what's your problem with the one you quoted. When a female-only race suddenly jumps to only dating male aliens (with some unfortunate exceptions that never really work out all that well), they are no longer much of space lesbians, are they? When this transition is simply postulated without plausible explanation, well, it literally starts to look like bull**** asspull. Which is what people are getting pissed about.

You're right, they aren't "space lesbians". I never disagreed with this.

I'm just saying that calling them lesbians in the first place is redundant; they could never be anything else. The fact that a race who has never had any concept of mixed-gender relationships are apparently sometimes attracted to aesthetically dissimilar males of other species strikes me as no more strange than a human female dating a drell or turian male.

Modifié par Sentox6, 14 février 2011 - 10:11 .

[tmk]

Raanz wrote...
Sorry if my reply is late in the conversation, but might I pose a similar question to all of the FemSheps.  Would you be so inclined to be so adamant about Liara if the Asari were a mono-gendered species that resembled the human male but instead of hair they had these sleaky tubes for hair?

Ignoring the issue of procreation of mono-gendered male species - no I imagine lesbian femSheps would not be sexually attracted to them.

Except that only serves to reinforce the question of why the heck are the in-game asari all over freaky alien males all of a sudden.