450 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Scimal wrote...
LotSB DLC.

Third video set.

You get to see the Asari Councilor mackin' with Il-Jilani.

I really doubt it's the asari councilor.

[tmk]

Scimal wrote...
Don't forget Samara's loyalty mission. Morinth's victim was a young woman.

Yep. The only example of an asari attracted to a female NPC is a sexual predator with a genetic deficiency.

If you do play FemShep, you can nail Liara, romance Morinth, go after Samara, and Shiala gives you the ol' winky-woo.

It may not be as apparent as Asari/Male pairings because you interact with so few on anything other than a superficial level, but the Asari + Female relationships are there.

See my earlier posts about femShep-exclusive stuff.

Really, the homosexual male options are probably the most-lacking.

The issue with the asari is that they should be homosexual (or at least bisexual) by nature, and you still don't actually see them with women or even each other. Male equivalent of this particular situation doesn't really exist in Mass Effect (and would be a whole another animal for a number of reasons).

Male homosexuality is indeed underrepresented in the game (to put it mildly), but that's a different issue from being misrepresented.

Modifié par tmk, 18 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sable Phoenix]

I'm kind of surprised this thread still remains unlocked.

Despite my disappointment at not seeing asari paired with other asari very often, as the discussion wears on I can't find myself agreeing with the viewpoint that states asari are homosexual by nature. They're monosexual by gender, but that doesn't make them homosexual by preference, and from everything witnessed in the games they're obviously omnisexual or pansexual or whatever you want to call it. They don't even have an orientation as humans understand it.  And frankly, that makes sense (or as much sense as asari can make) considering they don't even have sexes the way humans understand it. What they "should" be is whatever BioWare makes them, not whatever the opinions of the individual players are.

While I still think they should be "ooh"ing and "aah"ing over human women, at the minimum in simple amazement at how similar they look to asari, I don't find their overall behavior odd or offensive and honestly don't understand how something as simple as a fictional race from a fictional universe can have that much power over anyone in the real world anyway.  For some reason some people seem to be taking it personally, which I just don't get at all.

(And the writers' motives behind the creation of the asari are irrelevant, because they are pure speculation... bringing them up is pointless since nothing about them can be demonstrated or proven.)

Modifié par Sable Phoenix, 18 février 2011 - 10:36 .

[Scimal]

tmk wrote...


Yep. The only example of an asari attracted to a female NPC is a sexual predator with a genetic deficiency.

Well, and the other two I mentioned. It's much more convenient for your point to ignore those, though.

See my earlier posts about femShep-exclusive stuff.

Sure, fine, fine.

The issue with the asari is that they should be homosexual (or at least bisexual) by nature, and you still don't actually see them with women or even each other. Male equivalent of this particular situation doesn't really exist in Mass Effect (and would be a whole another animal for a number of reasons).

It seems to me you hear about it all the time. Off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 NPCs which talk about their relationships with other Asari, or being Pureblood. Two of them have extensive conversations with you about their relationships with their Asari partners.

The question is, why is being with the female of another species homosexual for the Asari? By our definition the parent who produces an egg to be fertilized by sperm is female. The Asari produce eggs, but they are not fertilized by donor sperm - or rather, they are fertilized by the Asari themselves (implying both egg and sperm production in a single organism) with the partner donating little else beyond a template for squence manipulation. That would be a hermaphrodite. If they don't fertilize an egg within themselves, and instead simply induce reproduction from a single cell that turns into an Asari - that would be asexual since neither egg or sperm exist in our terminology. However, I think it's more hermaphroditic than asexual.

Can you be a homosexual hermaphrodite? No. The Asari merely appear female to Humans because ****** sapiens females share a lot of phenotypic traits. Softer features, wider hips, less apparent muscle mass, things which we assume are breasts - but these don't make anything female.

Sure, you can dig up the quote by one of the writers that says all the Asari are mono-gendered female in an interview somewhere... But I doubt the guy has a degree in Biology, and I bet that's the easy answer to give instead of, "Well, actually they're hermaphroditic because they house both gametes inside separate organs which are only released upon receiving the specific neurotransmitters..." That would not only lose plenty of the target audience (men - because who wants to make love to a hermaphrodite you just rescued?), but any other audience at large considering how ignorant most of our society is about Science.

So, I personally think that while it would be nice for more pairings to show up - I say that out of desire for variation (and because I'm still a guy - curves are curves), not an understanding of Asari (fictional) Biology.

[tmk]

Scimal wrote...Well, and the other two I mentioned. It's much more convenient for your point to ignore those, though.

Well, if you assume that all NPCs who stand next to each other and talk are romantically involved then yes, Mass Effect universe is one huge homosexual orgy. However, simply talking to another person is not an indication of an intimate relationship.

It seems to me you hear about it all the time. Off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 NPCs which talk about their relationships with other Asari, or being Pureblood. Two of them have extensive conversations with you about their relationships with their Asari partners.

Again, I only remember Erinya, who is borderline racist, and Benezia/Aethyta (except it didn't exactly work).

The question is, why is being with the female of another species homosexual for the Asari? By our definition the parent who produces an egg to be fertilized by sperm is female. The Asari produce eggs, but they are not fertilized by donor sperm - or rather, they are fertilized by the Asari themselves (implying both egg and sperm production in a single organism) with the partner donating little else beyond a template for squence manipulation. That would be a hermaphrodite. If they don't fertilize an egg within themselves, and instead simply induce reproduction from a single cell that turns into an Asari - that would be asexual since neither egg or sperm exist in our terminology. However, I think it's more hermaphroditic than asexual.

We can argue whole days whether gene-recombinating biotic field can be considered a form of sperm and whether asari are technically hermaphroditic. Thing is, they have enough similarities with a certain real-life group to be considered an allusion of sorts. As such, they can be viewed as a misrepresentation of the aforementioned group, and I am proposing means of resolving that issue.

Sure, you can dig up the quote by one of the writers that says all the Asari are mono-gendered female in an interview somewhere... But I doubt the guy has a degree in Biology [...]

Actually, I hear that two of the lead writers do have Biology-related degrees. Except it doesn't matter because the game is still full of nonsense from biological standpoint, for storytelling or whatever other reasons. So arguing about the technicalities of asari taxonomy is, again, red herring. Besides, even if you call them hermaphrodites, asari making out with another asari is still homosexual (as in, they are both of same sex, it just happens to be hermaphrodite rather than female in that case) and have been for millenia.

[Scimal]

tmk wrote...


Well, if you assume that all NPCs who stand next to each other and talk are romantically involved then yes, Mass Effect universe is one huge homosexual orgy. However, simply talking to another person is not an indication of an intimate relationship.

I suppose kissing them passionately, as in the Al-Jilani (Il-Jilani... whatever) video doesn't count?

Sure, maybe the couple standing closely on a balcony in ME2 watching the cars go by while staring at each other are friends... Completely possible. I also bet it's completely possible that I could find more examples if I replayed ME1.

They're there, the Asari + Human Female relationships just aren't as proliferous as other Asari relationships.

Again, I only remember Erinya, who is borderline racist, and Benezia/Aethyta (except it didn't exactly work).

So? That's two you can interact extensively with. One you hear in passing. There's also Samara's entire family, since Ardat-Yakshi's can only happen with Pureblood daughters. Also, being racist and having a failed relationship doesn't invalidate them - there are plenty of racists and failed relationships in the ME universe.

How many Human Male + Asari pairings do we know of outside of MaleShep's romances? There's Steven from Miranda's Loyalty mission, there's TIM who has a thing for the one Matriarch, and there's... Well, uhh... Hrm. Oh, there's a couple in ME1 on the Citadel that stares at the Destiny Ascension!

Two whole games, and I can't recall many more than any other type of relationship. We just perceive Human Male + Asari more often because MaleShep spends time romancing Liara (and Morinth or Samara). It's more exposure to that type of relationship than almost any other (outside of Human and Human - but this is subconsciously accepted as the norm by everybody who plays the game).

We can argue whole days whether gene-recombinating biotic field can be considered a form of sperm and whether asari are technically hermaphroditic.

Not when both sperm and hermaphrodites have very well-defined Biological meanings.

Sperm - A single-cell motile gamete that contains genetic material which will merge with an egg to produce a zygote.

Hermaphrodite - Having both male and female reproductive capabilities or organs.

If the Asari don't use sperm, they're not Hermaphroditic - but it also means they're not female either, since the delineating definitions is that males produce sperm while females produce eggs.

If they do something else, then a new term is created.

Thing is, they have enough similarities with a certain real-life group to be considered an allusion of sorts. As such, they can be viewed as a misrepresentation of the aforementioned group, and I am proposing means of resolving that issue.

They're as much of an allusion as the player wants them to be. They're fiction. We ascribe values to fictional characters that are constructed from our own subjective experiences. You see them as an allusion to women - specifically homosexual women.

I see them as a biologically different species that requires new terms which don't have direct analogs to what we're used to.

Neither of us is incorrect until we start trying to proliferate that view in competition with the views of others. When that happens, I tend to debate - not only because I feel my subjective interpretation is superior (as everybody does), but also because I think it's annoying when someone barges in and declares their view correct without much proof or analysis.

If there was a monstrous difference between relationship types in ME that can't be accounted for via special gender disparities, I might be more inclined to agree with you that more Asari-Asari or Asari-Human Female pairings could balance it out.

However, like I've said, I'm not seeing one grossly outnumbering the other. 

Actually, I hear that two of the lead writers do have Biology-related degrees. Except it doesn't matter because the game is still full of nonsense from biological standpoint, for storytelling or whatever other reasons.

Good. If it's so much nonsense, then you probably shouldn't care about it so much.

So arguing about the technicalities of asari taxonomy is, again, red herring. Besides, even if you call them hermaphrodites, asari making out with another asari is still homosexual (as in, they are both of same sex, it just happens to be hermaphrodite rather than female in that case) and have been for millenia.

Hermaphrodite is not a sex. It's both sexes in the same body. Multi-sex. Homosexuality is attractiveness to the same sex, implicit in that is that it's two of a single sex.

They're not homosexual. They're not bisexual. They're not heterosexual.

None of the definitions fit. There may be something buried in Biology diction that I'm not aware of, but I haven't heard of any appropriate term.

If anything, I'd call them either asexual or hermaphroditic symbiotes. They simply require another living being to utilize for sequence randomization. Whether that being is Asari, Human, Salarian, Hanar, Elcor, etc. doesn't matter - and it doesn't matter whether or not genetic material is ever exchanged, so it doesn't matter what sex the partner has.

Phenotypically they appear female to humans, which is the only point your argument stands on. They look like women, they're surrounded by and attracted to beings who look like (or are) women, so why don't we see more pairings of the two?

The answer is simple either way.

-Because you're overlooking the relationships which exist and haven't done a proper analysis.

Or.

-Because they aren't sexual in the sense we're used to thinking, and applying human tropes to beings which are purposely made to not be physiologically human is about as good an idea as buliding a car out of bricks instead of aluminum because they're both hard.

If, however, you can prove that Asari-Asari or Asari-Human Female pairings have a significant under-representation (maybe a 30-50% under-representation) then I'll happily make my reply an acceptance of your proof and vehement agreement with your viewpoint.

[Kaltrec]

Scimal wrote...

They're not homosexual. They're not bisexual. They're not heterosexual.

None of the definitions fit. There may be something buried in Biology diction that I'm not aware of, but I haven't heard of any appropriate term.

Look up pansexuality, i think the definition comes close to what they are.

Modifié par Kaltrec, 19 février 2011 - 02:52 .

[Sereiphiel]

Sentox6 wrote...

Sereiphiel wrote...
Not verbal abuse, unless the individual feels the claim is legitament.  "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

I laughed. A lot.

It's a clever spin though, if not a little juvenile in nature. By your definition, anyone who wants to object to a gratuitous insult must implicitly agree that it's true. Heh.

I cannot disagree, but still it is true to an extent.  No need to feel insulted by what someone else says if you yourself do not feel it is true.  In other words, it won't bother an individual who knows for his/herself that the words issued are untrue.  The sticks and stones quote is old, but it holds very fundamentally sound Psychological truths.

[Sentox6]

Sereiphiel wrote...
I cannot disagree, but still it is true to an extent.  No need to feel insulted by what someone else says if you yourself do not feel it is true.  In other words, it won't bother an individual who knows for his/herself that the words issued are untrue.  The sticks and stones quote is old, but it holds very fundamentally sound Psychological truths.

On a personal level, I agree with the sticks and stones perspective. People can sling all the words they want at me. It's their effort they're wasting, after all.

But saying it shouldn't bother you is not the same as saying people should be allowed free reign to be as obnoxious as they like. Otherwise, in a perverse way you're implying that verbal abuse is only wrong when it's based on an element of truth, which I don't think is what you're going for.

So if someone starts slinging baseless insults and their 'victim' retaliates on principle, I'm not going to blame them either.

[Whatever42]

tmk wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
Its really the only possible explanation - they had to have reproduced "normally" at one point.

Strictly speaking, asexual reproduction is just as "normal". Sexual reproduction just accelerates the natural selection process by allowing mix-and-matching of genetic material from the most "successful" specimen.

Thessia is an eezo-rich planet, so its native lifeforms pretty much had biotics from the get-go. They apparently evolved to use it for genetic recombination, which would make sexual reproduction model essentially redundant before it could become all that widespread.

I simply meant that for the Asari to have sexual organs then they would have had to have reproduced sexually at some point. The reproduction by telepathic contact had to have been a later evolution. A species does not evolve sex organs for no useful purpose. And since they don't require them now for their current method of reproduction, they would have to be an evolutionary throwback for the species.

Yes, we could argue that Asari do not have sex organs, that anything they have down there is simply meant for childbirth, but I don't think that's the case. The Asari are far too eagar to start physical relationships for that to be the case.

[Sereiphiel]

jeweledleah wrote...

Sereiphiel wrote...

I said it's a possibilty and I didn't say "men must penetrate to have a sexual encounter" nor was it an implication.  Now you're just taking words out of my mouth.  In fact, I didn't even say it was impossible for there to be no penetration involved.

and I quote

Also have to understand that Shepard is still a human, so he would most likely resort to human pleasures, i.e. penetration.

you're making it sound like a natural progression of the encounter for male shepard....except its not.  Liara is not human.  Shepard for all we know could have had asari sex before, heck if you took certain conversation option with shiara - Shepard DID have asari sex, very recently.  why would he most likely resort to human pleasures?

we don't know much about specifics of asari sex or even asari physiology, but assuming that sex with them will most likely involve penetration is well....a little too human.

Most likely doesn't equal 100%, it's a 50/50 phrase.  Though I should have used the word "might" instead.  Still though, Shepard is human, would be logical to assume that he would resort to human contingencies.   Maybe, depends on how much movement happens during the "black eyes intimacy mode" aka "mind meld" intercourse.

[Sereiphiel]

Sentox6 wrote...

Sereiphiel wrote...
I cannot disagree, but still it is true to an extent.  No need to feel insulted by what someone else says if you yourself do not feel it is true.  In other words, it won't bother an individual who knows for his/herself that the words issued are untrue.  The sticks and stones quote is old, but it holds very fundamentally sound Psychological truths.

On a personal level, I agree with the sticks and stones perspective. People can sling all the words they want at me. It's their effort they're wasting, after all.

But saying it shouldn't bother you is not the same as saying people should be allowed free reign to be as obnoxious as they like. Otherwise, in a perverse way you're implying that verbal abuse is only wrong when it's based on an element of truth, which I don't think is what you're going for.

So if someone starts slinging baseless insults and their 'victim' retaliates on principle, I'm not going to blame them either.

That's true.  I'm still going to verbal abuse you, just so you know - jk lol.  Sometimes I forget my manners and taunting isn't very effective anyway, usually ends up being counter productive when attempting to share perspectives on certain topics.  It works sometimes, but not often enough.

tmk wrote...

(case in point here - Sereiphiel, even though the last few pages were about how that's not logical to assume).

Indeed, the words were too strong.  It is logical to assume both cases.

Edit: for the record, I never said it was illogical to assume your case, tmk.

Modifié par Sereiphiel, 19 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[Sereiphiel]

The Asari consort with females from other species as well. Although the only real proof for that is the female Shepard romance with Liara.  The incident with Samara isn't  the only proof that the Asari get intimate with females from other species.

As for the Hermaphrodite topic, there is no record of the Asari ever being Hermaphrodites - ever.  Unless Bioware has some top secret codex history of the Asari race being hermaphrodites hidden somewhere.  Asexual reproduction does not require a male counter-part, this is why the Asari seem to be more interested in "mating" or melding with males from other species.

Edit: Morinth, not Samara.

Modifié par Sereiphiel, 19 février 2011 - 04:44 .

[nevar00]

I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Asari sex organs... but I'm not gonna lie; I'd bang Morinth.

I heard the sex is...
*puts on sunglasses*
...to die for.

YEEEEEAAAAAAA













...yeah that's all I have to add to this subject.

Modifié par nevar00, 19 février 2011 - 04:29 .

[Scimal]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I simply meant that for the Asari to have sexual organs then they would have had to have reproduced sexually at some point. The reproduction by telepathic contact had to have been a later evolution. A species does not evolve sex organs for no useful purpose. And since they don't require them now for their current method of reproduction, they would have to be an evolutionary throwback for the species.

Not necessarily.

Horizontal Transfer could occur on a much larger scale given the right evolutionary pathway. No sex involved, just brush up against a buddy and take some DNA.

Telepathic contact could've evolved to make the Horizontal Transfer pleasurable, which would ultimately increase the diversity of the species.

Yes, we could argue that Asari do not have sex organs, that anything they have down there is simply meant for childbirth, but I don't think that's the case. The Asari are far too eagar to start physical relationships for that to be the case.

It's all speculation, fortunately. Fictional biologies can't be studied to much depth, so whatever works for ya.

I'm actually liking the idea of the Asari being very evolved Remora.

They find a host, use the host DNA to give birth, and in return give pleasure.

[Inquisitor Recon]

If you couldn't do asari nobody would bother mind-melding with them.

but I'm not gonna lie; I'd bang Morinth.

I heard the sex is...
*puts on sunglasses*
...to die for.

YEEEEEAAAAAAA

*high five*

Modifié par ReconTeam, 19 février 2011 - 06:10 .

[Sentox6]

ReconTeam wrote...

If you couldn't do asari nobody would bother mind-melding with them.

And just like that, 17 pages of progress is incinerated, and the ashes strewn to the wind.

Seriously, wut?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Sentox6 wrote...
And just like that, 17 pages of progress is incinerated, and the ashes strewn to the wind.

Seriously, wut?

That's what I do maam. You can thank me later.

[Xilizhra]

And... what about those women who meld with them?

[Hyper Cutter]

I'm pretty sure asari have at least one orifice down there you can use. Doesn't even matter if it was designed for the purpose, God knows that's never stopped us before...

Scimal wrote...
Sure, maybe the couple standing closely on a balcony in ME2 watching the cars go by while staring at each other are friends... Completely possible. I also bet it's completely possible that I could find more examples if I replayed ME1.

You can. There are several examples of asari/asari (and a few asari/woman) couples among the background NPCs on the Citadel in ME1, iirc.

[Sereiphiel]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

I'm pretty sure asari have at least one orifice down there you can use. Doesn't even matter if it was designed for the purpose, God knows that's never stopped us before...

Indeed, whether it be for biowaste or child birth, it's there.  No denying that.

Modifié par Sereiphiel, 20 février 2011 - 12:35 .

[Zaxares]

Considering that asari are viviparous mammals (meaning that they give birth to live young), it's almost certain that they have some kind of orifice that serves as a birth canal. Granted, since asari don't have a male gender, the birth canal is likely to be extremely short and/or small, which could pose problems for asari partners looking to have penetrative sex. However, given that asari have mouths and (presumably) an orifice for waste excretion, I imagine that such problems could be overcome by a determined enough couple.



Liara tells you in ME1 that asari still need a partner in order to have children, and the codex states that they reproduce via a method similar to parthenogenesis. This suggests that they are asexual rather than hermaphroditic, but the catalyst necessary to trigger the development of a child is not a physical one, since no exchange of sexual material is necessary.

[Sereiphiel]

Zaxares wrote...

Considering that asari are viviparous mammals (meaning that they give birth to live young), it's almost certain that they have some kind of orifice that serves as a birth canal. Granted, since asari don't have a male gender, the birth canal is likely to be extremely short and/or small, which could pose problems for asari partners looking to have penetrative sex. However, given that asari have mouths and (presumably) an orifice for waste excretion, I imagine that such problems could be overcome by a determined enough couple.

Liara tells you in ME1 that asari still need a partner in order to have children, and the codex states that they reproduce via a method similar to parthenogenesis. This suggests that they are asexual rather than hermaphroditic, but the catalyst necessary to trigger the development of a child is not a physical one, since no exchange of sexual material is necessary.

Indeed.  Although one doesn't even need the codex to make such conclusions about the Asari orifice, since a basic knowledge of Biology is all that's required, albeit the codex does serve as "hard proof".

Modifié par Sereiphiel, 20 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[Sereiphiel]

Wine anyone?

Modifié par Sereiphiel, 20 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[Zkyire]

Xilizhra wrote...

After pondering it with a few of my friends, I've come to the conclusion that there's no logical reason for asari to be equipped for penetrative sex. Granted, many will say that there's no logical reason for the asari to be, period, and they wouldn't be totally wrong; personally, I believe they were artificially engineered by someone. However, even with that, considering that their reproductive processes are mostly mental and they bred with each other for thousands of years, they have absolutely no need to be receptive to penises.

Thus, I contend that the asari birth canal, though located in a similar spot to the human one, is not a pleasure zone or adapted for penetration. It's possibly comparable to the human cervix, a valve meant to enable passage only one way; even if it wasn't actually painful for anything to enter it, it'd likely be odd and uncomfortable.

And so I pose this question to Maleshep/Liara fans: if this was true and you couldn't engage in penetration (keeping in mind that there are several other ways to engage in physical pleasure as seen with Femshep), would you stay with her or would you move on to a human (or quarian) LI?

Anal. Oral.

/end thread.