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Strugging to bring myself to play ME2.


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#76
Gatt9

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Femlob wrote...

I think I can see where the OP is coming from. I experienced a similar cultural shock when I first fired up Mass Effect 2; nothing felt familiar, very few things were still the way they used to be in the original Mass Effect. In sharp contrast to the OP, though, I went the exact opposite way.

Allow me to adress the two points I think I gathered from the OP's post:

Mechanics
Having beaten both games several times, I can no longer motivate myself to go back to the first game for one simple reason: the often lauded, yet critically flawed inventory system. I was annoyed with it back when I first played the game, and I'm still annoyed with it today - even more so, really, considering Mass Effect 2's fluid handling of new equipment (although I'll be the first to admit that I would have liked to have seen some more gear, too).

We all love loot; loot is good. But if you cut your looting teeth on games like Diablo, there is no way you'll ever find Mass Effect's handling of looting anywhere near acceptable. You essentially have to memorize the equipment of all of your characters, or write it all down; for each time you collect an item, you have to add it to your inventory in order to figure out if it's something you can use. Which clogs up your inventory, which in turn forces you to either omni-gellify junk gear or visit a merchant on a way too regular basis - a slow process, since adequate scrolling speed is apparently limited to PCs.

In a game that places so much emphasis on story, sandbagging a player with a lousy inventory and so forcing him or her to put the story on hold every ten minutes in order to deplete said lousy inventory and make room for more loot is a great way to discourage curiosity. Sure, one could argue that you don't have to pick everything up - but that kind of defeats the purpose of having loot to begin with, doesn't it?

And really - one would argue that scanning barren planets is somehow worse than driving around on them? I don't really know how to respond to that... If nothing else, scanning is a lot faster - leaving more time for the story.

Story
I've often read that Mass Effect 2 doesn't have much of a story beyond recruiting characters and making them loyal. I find this surprising, since there's very little difference between the stories of Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 from a purely structural perspective. Start game, get acquainted, clear four major hurdles, defeat last boss, victory tune.

Eden Prime equals Freedom's Progress; Feros, Noveria, Virmire and Ilos equal Horizon, Derelict Reaper, Ancient Reaper and Collector Base; Saren equals Reaper Embryo. One can argue in favor of either story based on personal preference, but to say that there is more story in Mass Effect as opposed to Mass Effect 2 is complete bullocks.

Where Mass Effect 2 differs from its predecessor is in its attention to the characters you get to work with. Not only do you get more characters, but they all get their chance to shine, their fifteen minutes of fame if you will - an integral part of a story that focuses more on emotional connection and relationships (platonic or not) than on destroying the Evil Synthetic Army led by the Big Bad Dude who's mind-controlled by an even Bigger Badder Thing. I jest, of course - but where the focus of the first game was entirely on destroying a galactic threat, this still existing galactic threat takes something of a backseat in the second game in favor of explaining exactly what motivates the game's primary characters to fight.

It's a focus not often seen in modern video games, considerably more adult-oriented, and reminds me of the cultural shock induced by Final Fantasy XII's highly political character... Regardless, it is far less easy to comprehend and thus easily mistaken for something it's absolutely not - lacking in depth and enticement. You just have to be willing to appreciate it.


1.  ME2's inventory system isn't "Fluid",  it's non-existant.  It's a loadout screen for a shooter. There is no inventory in the game.

2.  Which in turn makes character customization impossible.

3.  Inventory management has been a "problem" in all CRPGs.  The reason it's a problem,  is because CRPGs only implement half of the system.  The system actually is meant to represent a character's carrying capacity and make them weigh choices in their equipment.  CRPGs eliminate that half letting you tote around the better part of a continent on your back.  Hence,  they all have issues with overloaded inventory.  Now don't get me wrong,  I hate burden as much as the next guy.  But honestly,  it's insurmountable,  and removing loot is most definitely not an acceptable solution.  I'd rather run back to the store,  or spend 20 minutes omni-gelling than deal with ME2's complete lack of any reason to kill anyone or do anything.

4.  The writing is,  at best,  dodgy.  To appriciate it you have to pretty much ignore plot holes the size of the Normandy.  If I've gotta spend more time ignoring plot holes than I do hearing story,  then you've already lost me.

5.  The Mako is an order of magnitude better than the mini-game.  Being able to optionally explore planets and discover hidden things is a great deal better than the mind numbing scroll over a planet that is absolutely critical to playing the game.

To close,  I'm sorry certain people are "Tired of hearing the complaints",  I'm tired of hearing blind praises myself,  know what I do?  I don't read the blind praise threads.  If you are going to head into a thread about the major problems with the game,  it'd probably be best to be prepared to deal with the fact that the game is really bad.

#77
Lumikki

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Please put you ME2 registration to this forum, if you bash the game, so that we know you actually are the account owner and not using multible account to troll.

Modifié par Lumikki, 15 février 2011 - 04:13 .


#78
JediNg

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Fixers0 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Do you really want me to go into detail about how sick and tired I am of hearing this BS about ME2 being stupid and shallow? Because I'll write a damn essay about it.  ME2's overachring plot was lackluster, I'll admit, but give me enough time in front of a keyboard and I will gladly explain to you the parts where the writing kicked supreme ass.

For now, be satisfied with the beluga whale. It's cute.


Please do i haven't read anything good in ages,

Stupid Internet memes


Aw someone's butthurt.

#79
London

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Considering it's just a video game and there are far more important issues to have to deal with in life than whether to use some free time on a video game or not, I can see why most people find the OP a bit absurd.



If you don't feel it's worth your time and you find it boring, don't play it. If you feel you "need" to because Me3 comes out at the end of the year, skip all the planet scanning. I probably only spent less than a half hour of game time on scanning and managed to get all the upgrades, but you can skip sidequests and just do the major questline and be fine for an import for ME3.



When I first bought ME1, I couldn't get past Eden Prime because I didn't like shooters and was disappointed that it wasn't more like Dragon Age. But after a few months went by I gave it a second try and really appreciate it.



It sounds like you wanted an ME1 clone and didn't like what changed. Try a more neutral standpoint; and if that fails walk away for a few months until the addiction to ME1 gameplay fades some.

#80
marshalleck

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Lumikki wrote...

Please put you ME2 registration to this forum, if you bash the game, so that we know you actually are the account owner and not using multible account to troll.

Are you a moderator? No? ****** off.

#81
Jaron Oberyn

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marshalleck wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Please put you ME2 registration to this forum, if you bash the game, so that we know you actually are the account owner and not using multible account to troll.

Are you a moderator? No? ****** off.


http://brianorndorf....a7d80970b-400wi

He's Paul Blart Forum Cop that's who he is. 

-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 15 février 2011 - 04:29 .


#82
Iakus

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SebastianDA wrote...
It sounds like you wanted an ME1 clone and didn't like what changed. Try a more neutral standpoint; and if that fails walk away for a few months until the addiction to ME1 gameplay fades some.


::sigh::  It always comes down to "You just want ME 1 all over again!"

No, I don't.  I already own ME 1.  What I wanted was a continuation of the story.  Not a complete restart of the series.  Mass Effect 2, not Mass Effect Too.

Apologies for sounding snarky, but I hear that so often whenever someone says anything remotely negative about ME 2, From equipment to gameplay to plot.  It doesn't have to be ME 1 or ME 2.  There is a third path!

#83
Marta Rio

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TowranPeter wrote...
I think the planet
scanning really destroyed the game in a lot of ways.  It's so utterly
boring that it discourages playing the game. The planet scanning is like
this horrible punishment that Bioware bestowed upon us.  Maybe Bioware
hates us in some way and they wanted to get back at us?  I immediately
think if I did something wrong to ****** Bioware off for them to force
this horrible task on us. 


I think I saw an interview by Casey Hudson where he said he was surprised that people spent so much time on planet scanning.  That is, it wasn't the development team's intention that people would try to get all the upgrades (or even spend the time necessary to get the big important ones with story consequences).  Although, he admitted that in hindsight that certainly wasn't the case, since most people spent a non-negligible amount of time on planet scanning. 

SebastianDA wrote...
If you don't feel it's worth your time
and you find it boring, don't play it. If you feel you "need" to
because Me3 comes out at the end of the year, skip all the planet
scanning. I probably only spent less than a half hour of game time on
scanning and managed to get all the upgrades, but you can skip
sidequests and just do the major questline and be fine for an import for
ME3.


From a dramatic standpoint, it's almost better not to get all the upgrades, and then see what implications that has for the outcome of the game.  It's certainly not necessary.  Ditto the loyalty missions.  (Although IMO if you skip the loyaltly missions you're skipping the best parts of the game...)

#84
London

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RE: Iakus

I was responding to the OP, not you. The OP took a whole paragraph to talk about planet scanning and just feeling there isn't enough diaglogue. Your critique about it not continuing the story and being "Mass Effect Too" is another issue (and one I also disagree with).

I think I spent more time deciding what to do with my moral dilemma choices in ME2 than I did in ME1, where I felt the moral choices were obivous. I think there was also just as much if not more dialogue, but it was just spread out over more characters. Planet exploration in the Mako on empty worlds with bad terrain didn't have any dialogue...so I'm assuming he just misses rumbling around pointlessly on an empty world to find ore to hack.

Personally I appreciated the time I saved on Planet Scanning rather than spending up to 15 minutes trying to figure out how to get over a mountain on a boring planet to find the ? I was trying to reach, but that's just me.

I also personally believe ME2 did continue the ME storyline adequately. We saw how characters from ME1 progressed or moved on over 2 years.

What did you want? Another huge mission for Shephard the day after we defeated Sovereign with all the same characters? What exactly is your issue with the storyline exactly? And why do you think the storyline is inappropriate for a sequal?

Modifié par SebastianDA, 15 février 2011 - 04:43 .


#85
nevar00

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I thought the first game was incredibly mediocre at first: it took until the third playthrough for me to really begin to love it. Whereas I loved ME2 right after I began to play it. I could go into this a lot more, but I'll just leave it right now as that I think both games have their strengths and weaknesses, but in the end the gameplay of the second game just feels cleaner and is more fun, even if I have gotten used to ME1 to the point that I think the shooter aspect is fun as well, regardless of it being a mess.

Oh and planet scanning is bad but it takes 5 minutes and then you never have to touch it again.  It's a HUGE improvement over climbing verticle mountains for a half hour with the jumpy Mako in the first game.

Modifié par nevar00, 15 février 2011 - 04:52 .


#86
Slayer299

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Femlob wrote...
Mechanics
Having beaten both games several times, I can no longer motivate myself to go back to the first game for one simple reason: the often lauded, yet critically flawed inventory system. I was annoyed with it back when I first played the game, and I'm still annoyed with it today - even more so, really, considering Mass Effect 2's fluid handling of new equipment (although I'll be the first to admit that I would have liked to have seen some more gear, too).

We all love loot; loot is good. But if you cut your looting teeth on games like Diablo, there is no way you'll ever find Mass Effect's handling of looting anywhere near acceptable. You essentially have to memorize the equipment of all of your characters, or write it all down; for each time you collect an item, you have to add it to your inventory in order to figure out if it's something you can use. Which clogs up your inventory, which in turn forces you to either omni-gellify junk gear or visit a merchant on a way too regular basis - a slow process, since adequate scrolling speed is apparently limited to PCs.


I don't think anyone could argue that ME1's inventory was a thing of beauty and simplicity. It was a horror to keep track off between selling or omni-gelling. I didn't find it that much of a bother for the NPC's equipment since you had the lockers you could goto on board the Normandy. 

Story
Eden Prime equals Freedom's Progress; Feros, Noveria, Virmire and Ilos equal Horizon, Derelict Reaper, Ancient Reaper and Collector Base; Saren equals Reaper Embryo. One can argue in favor of either story based on personal preference, but to say that there is more story in Mass Effect as opposed to Mass Effect 2 is complete bullocks.


I disagree with you there. Eden Prime and Freedom's Progress were very much different, but let me specify what I mean. With Eden Prime you fought your way through the tons of Geth to the Beacon. Finding out that Saren wanted the beacon or whatever was contained within it. But the fight there I found to be more personalizing in wanting to stop the Geth since you see the dead bodies as you travel through EP.
Now to Freedom's Progress, you do learn about the Collectors who are attacking and kidnapping colonies out in the Terminus, but what is it that you actually face on FP? 'Bots....ooooooooh! That's not a great way to get you motivated that the Collec. are a tangible threat you know exists, because you've fought them and had a glimpse of what they are doing. Intellectually you know the Collec. are a threat but its not visceral or even very looming. Because until Horizon you don't see or hear about the Collect. in any fashion other than recruting Mordin for a defense against the seeker swarms.

I have no major arguments about the Feros, Noveria, Virmire being close in concept to Horiz. DR and the CS (BTW, the Derelict Reaper and Ancient Reaper are the same ship), since you're learning something about the Collec. goals. But the Baby-Terminator never even comes close to being the equal of Saren. When do you get any sense of a looming threat from the baby-Terminator *during* the game (but not including SM)? Saren was there as a looming threat with Sov, but you don't find out about baby-Terminator till the end of the SM and for me it left me struck still with a sense of wtf?

Where Mass Effect 2 differs from its predecessor is in its attention to the characters you get to work with. Not only do you get more characters, but they all get their chance to shine, their fifteen minutes of fame if you will - an integral part of a story that focuses more on emotional connection and relationships (platonic or not) than on destroying the Evil Synthetic Army led by the Big Bad Dude who's mind-controlled by an even Bigger Badder Thing. I jest, of course - but where the focus of the first game was entirely on destroying a galactic threat, this still existing galactic threat takes something of a backseat in the second game in favor of explaining exactly what motivates the game's primary characters to fight.


I do agree that the char's were very well done in ME2, that's not an argument at all. But the problem I have with them is that as a char. driven story, the char's do not actually drive the story forward. Because other than TaliLegion which you can see affecting ME3 & Mordin and the Genophage no-one else moved the story anywhere. The char's themselves did not need to be directly connected to the Collec's, but why couldn't you find out more about the Collec./Reaper connection or the Prothean reveal in a more personal way, because as it was with the Prothean/Collec. reveal it was very lackluster and quickly forgotten. You do not need to discover gobs of information, but bits and pieces to either fill in some blanks and open some others would have gone a long way in my opinion.

It's a focus not often seen in modern video games, considerably more adult-oriented, and reminds me of the cultural shock induced by Final Fantasy XII's highly political character... Regardless, it is far less easy to comprehend and thus easily mistaken for something it's absolutely not - lacking in depth and enticement. You just have to be willing to appreciate it.


I agree that it was a daring way to take ME2 focusing on the char's rather than a plot driven, but as it is it seems more as just an endless series of missions without anything tieing them together (other than their personal loyalty to Shep) to something more than 'building the dirty dozen team to fight the Collec.' I think that line by CH was a huge mistake to use as an example since the two have almost nothing in common beyond the SM both had to undertake.

ME2 wansn't a horrible game, it did more than a few things quite well and was quite enjoyable with things such as the LM's, NPC's, class differentiation with unique powers, smoother combat mechanics and even the P/R interrupts. But it did have flaws that made it a lesser cousin of ME1 in more than a few respects which I'll name a few;
1 - the inventory needed to be streamlined greatly but it was nixed and upgrades were good but generic and unspecific beyond +10%, 10% of what? We never knew what damage any of the weapons did. Armor bonuses were iffy at being implemented in-game and again at times unspecific (suich at the negotiation bonus of 10%, again, 10% of what exactly?)
2 - The Collec. threat was very distant and impersonal feeling as implemented with only 3 meetings (Horiz, CS and SM).
3 -  Removal of useful RPG elements such as Charm/Intimidate which allowed your Shep to either threaten or charm their way through situations that should not be P/R dependent only in ME2.
4 - No way to mod weapons/ammo to a specific play style such as higher damage but overheats faster. There are mechanics to make that workable but that's not what this thread is about. Seriously, is there a real reaon why changing ammo is now class dependent?
5 - The existing skills are presently implemented don't work very well. In most of the skills/powers there is almost no change between lvl 1 to lvl 3 and making only lvl 1 useful for acquiring the skill and lvl 4 where it actually gets buffed up nicely. It's also annoying that you always have left over points that you can't do anything with for the entire squad by the time of the SM because of the points appoinment for the skills as they exist.

That's five and that's good ^_^

edit - typo

Modifié par Slayer299, 15 février 2011 - 04:58 .


#87
London

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I agree with Slayer on her points; I don't really find one or the other game superior. I just liked them both for various reasons.



I also wish ME2 took some effort into giving us the stats of our weapons; I really had no clue as to why I should use one weapon over another in the same category other then the guess that the further down the list it was / the later in the game I got it, the more powerful it was. In a game still based on doing damage in numbers, even if hidden, would have been nice to see what we were actually equipping.

#88
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
In a way, you may very well be ignoring Irenicus by going to Trademeet.  Unless of course you go there to get the money to advance the plot.  However, such content is optional otherwise.  ME 2 you can't help but ignore the Collectors save when TIM tells you it's okay to go fight them.


It isn't ignoring them. It's not having any way to get at them. just as you don't have enough money to get to Spellhold until you raise some. Jeez, iakus, you know better than that.


???

"Unless of course you go there to get the money to advance the plot"

"However, such content is optional otherwise" (bolded for emphasis) As in, went to D'Arnise Keep, Windspear, Umar Hills, etc. instead


Right. So ignoring the main plot is optional but not required in both games. At least ME2 actually has a penalty for ignoring the main plot if you do that too late, whereas BG2 doesn't ever attempt to do so.

#89
marshalleck

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Marta Rio wrote...

I think I saw an interview by Casey Hudson where he said he was surprised that people spent so much time on planet scanning.  That is, it wasn't the development team's intention that people would try to get all the upgrades (or even spend the time necessary to get the big important ones with story consequences).  Although, he admitted that in hindsight that certainly wasn't the case, since most people spent a non-negligible amount of time on planet scanning. 

Which suggests to me that Mr. Hudson is seriously out of touch with the gamer community. 

#90
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I only spent as much time on Planet Scanning as I had to, which wasn't much. I left probably at least 50% of the available plannets unscanned as I didn't need them.

#91
Lunatic LK47

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Slayer299 wrote...
I do agree that the char's were very well done in ME2, that's not an argument at all. But the problem I have with them is that as a char. driven story, the char's do not actually drive the story forward. Because other than TaliLegion which you can see affecting ME3 & Mordin and the Genophage no-one else moved the story anywhere. The char's themselves did not need to be directly connected to the Collec's, but why couldn't you find out more about the Collec./Reaper connection or the Prothean reveal in a more personal way, because as it was with the Prothean/Collec. reveal it was very lackluster and quickly forgotten. You do not need to discover gobs of information, but bits and pieces to either fill in some blanks and open some others would have gone a long way in my opinion.


I can understand the handling of the Prothean's fate being lackluster and agree with the sentiment, but on the other hand, the writing was already painfully obvious in ME1. They were completely wiped out, not to mention half of Liara's exposition did say that every piece of evidence about races before the Protheans were consistently wiped out. This doesn't really give much wiggle-room for writing, unless we want to add in that the Reapers became increasingly sloppy in evidence clean-up long before Saren discovered Sovereign.

2 - The Collec. threat was very distant and impersonal feeling as implemented with only 3 meetings (Horiz, CS and SM).


Problem is the Collectors were completely lackluster regardless of the medium. If Drew and Mac weren't too focused on the spin-offs and focused more on Mass Effect 2, we wouldn't have this problem.

3 -  Removal of useful RPG elements such as Charm/Intimidate which allowed your Shep to either threaten or charm their way through situations that should not be P/R dependent only in ME2.


Except the Charm and Intimidate skills felt like they were wasted and better spent on two skills you could have used. Every single Soldier and Infiltrator I made, I exploited Lorik Qu'inn just to get the most out of my experience just because the description text said something like "Oh, you get a better discount in shops/You'll get more credits when selling crap."

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 15 février 2011 - 05:28 .


#92
spernus

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nevar00 wrote...

I thought the first game was incredibly mediocre at first: it took until the third playthrough for me to really begin to love it. Whereas I loved ME2 right after I began to play it. I could go into this a lot more, but I'll just leave it right now as that I think both games have their strengths and weaknesses, but in the end the gameplay of the second game just feels cleaner and is more fun, even if I have gotten used to ME1 to the point that I think the shooter aspect is fun as well, regardless of it being a mess.

Oh and planet scanning is bad but it takes 5 minutes and then you never have to touch it again.  It's a HUGE improvement over climbing verticle mountains for a half hour with the jumpy Mako in the first game.


To me,the first Mass effect was uneven.It started out well,but I lost motivation as I was going through those uncharted missions.The last few hours were awesome as I went through Virmire+the citadel. 

Mass effect 2 was a more consistent effort,but it can get tiring as it's shooting+talking all the way.It would of been near perfect if the entire game was constructed like Lair of the shadow broker where you have interesting boss battles+vehicle segment.

#93
William Adama

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Ya I also just finished another ME1 playthrough today, that game was fantastic! I immediately started ME2 and I am already struggling to play it.



If you play ME1 pure story, the pacing is phenomenal. If you didn't like that game, then you must of fleshed out a pretty rotten story during the game. It's not that the game had loopholes, its that you were a bad story-maker/role player.



ME2 has terrible dialogue options in comparison to ME1... how does "I gave you an order" translate to "Ill haul Jokers crippled ass out of here"? That's not what I intended to say Bioware...

#94
AdmiralCheez

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@William Adama: At least there's less Shep-says-the-same-stupid-thing-no-matter-what traps. You know, like when you're talking to Wrex about the First Contact War and Krogan Rebellions?

#95
Fiery Phoenix

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iakus wrote...

(...)Mass Effect 2, not Mass Effect Too.(...)

LOL! :lol:

Modifié par Fiery Phoenix, 15 février 2011 - 06:35 .


#96
Terror_K

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

@William Adama: At least there's less Shep-says-the-same-stupid-thing-no-matter-what traps. You know, like when you're talking to Wrex about the First Contact War and Krogan Rebellions?


Nope. Instead we just don't even get given a good amount of options and either Shepard just says something without our input or we only get a couple of choices, neither which are the ones we want. A classic case of this is when Vasir slams you for working for Cerberus, but you never get the option to disassociate yourself from them in any way and can only defend them, whether you like them or not. I know BioWare was trying to get away from the "I'll find some way to take him down!" syndrome of ME1, but now there's just not options at all when there should be. The lines don't necessarily actually have to change any outcomes in the game beyond what Shepard says, but they should be here. The amount of times you should have been given the chance to badmouth Cerberus and TIM and simply weren't alone was simply frustrating, especially in the classic, "I guess The Illusive Man didn't betray us after all..." case.

Modifié par Terror_K, 15 février 2011 - 06:51 .


#97
AdmiralCheez

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My point, Terror, is that there are flaws within both games.

I also wanted to kick TIM in the balls.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 15 février 2011 - 06:52 .


#98
Terror_K

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

My point, Terror, is that there are flaws within both games.

I also wanted to kick TIM in the balls.


Yeah. ME1 was flawed, and ME2 overcompensated for its flaws and created new flaws in the process.

Here's hoping they find the right balance in ME3. *raises glass*

#99
mark_luther

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So don't play it. Problem solved. Glad I could help.

#100
AdmiralCheez

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Terror_K wrote...

Yeah. ME1 was flawed, and ME2 overcompensated for its flaws and created new flaws in the process.

Here's hoping they find the right balance in ME3. *raises glass*

Honey, I'd drink a whole gallon to that! *raises keg*