309 réponses à ce sujet

[Altered Idol]

I love both games and have played through them countless times.

Both have great strengths and weaknesses in them, but overall I think the experience is unrivalled at this moment.

ME1 did have a bit more freedom and expansiveness that ME2. ME2 did feel alot more linear but I think that was a deliberate attempt to emphasis the importance of reaching the collector base quickly. I think it was a bold step that hasn't been universally perceived as a correct one.

ME1 also had a better variety of side quests/missions. ME2's side quests are slightly repetetive though this has been rectified somewhat with DLC. There was also more of an RPG feel to ME1, ME2 felt more like an action-shooter. I like both types of games so it didnt bother me a great deal.

I thought ME2's loyalty missions were much better by and large. There was great feeling attached to achieving them and obviously, greater consequences too  I thought the squadmate interactions were far more organic/fluid, they felt more real.

I also felt the Paragon/Renegade interupts were an excellent touch and by and large, the conversation system worked as well as ME, perhaps better in some instances.

In conclusion, I love both games and nothing will stop me saying otherwise.

I think there is some validity to the OP's argument but I also believe there are more than enough redeeming qualities than make ME2 definitely worth playing.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 15 février 2011 - 02:27 .

[TowranPeter]

Altered Idol wrote...

I love both games and have played through them countless times.

Both have great strengths and weaknesses in them, but overall I think the experience is unrivalled at this moment.

ME1 did have a bit more freedom and expansiveness that ME2. ME2 did feel alot more linear but I think that was a deliberate attempt to emphasis the importance of reaching the collector base quickly. I think it was a bold step that hasn't been universally perceived as a correct one.

ME1 also had a better variety of side quests/missions. ME2's side quests are slightly repetetive though this has been rectified somewhat with DLC. There was also more of an RPG feel to ME1, ME2 felt more like an action-shooter. I like both types of games so it didnt bother me a great deal.

I thought ME2's loyalty missions were much better by and large. There was great feeling attached to achieving them and obviously, greater consequences too  I thought the squadmate interactions were far more organic/fluid, they felt more real.

I also felt the Paragon/Renegade interupts were an excellent touch and by and large, the conversation system worked as well as ME, perhaps better in some instances.

In conclusion, I love both games and nothing will stop me saying otherwise.

I think there is some validity to the OP's argument but I also believe there are more than enough redeeming qualities than make ME2 definitely worth playing.

My only problem with the loyalty missions is that the game clearly identifies them as "loyalty missions".  Instead of calling them loyalty missions, just don't call it anything.  Let it unfold naturally in the story.

When I highlight over a character's info, I don't want to see "you haven't completed his loyalty mission yet", that's like giving a spoiler of things yet to come. It's dumb.

Once I realized that every dossier had a loyalty mission, the game felt very generic.  Loyalty missions should of unfolded without me knowing about them in any way. They should of unfolded naturally, keeping the mystery and surprise.

[Rune-Chan]

TowranPeter wrote...


My only problem with the loyalty missions is that the game clearly identifies them as "loyalty missions".  Instead of calling them loyalty missions, just don't call it anything.  Let it unfold naturally in the story.

When I highlight over a character's info, I don't want to see "you haven't completed his loyalty mission yet", that's like giving a spoiler of things yet to come. It's dumb.

Once I realized that every dossier had a loyalty mission, the game felt very generic.  Loyalty missions should of unfolded without me knowing about them in any way. They should of unfolded naturally, keeping the mystery and surprise.

I agree with this, it almost made the game feel as though you are ticking boxes.

Loyalty missions completed? Check
Ship upgraded? Check

I think the narrative style of ME1 combined with DA:O is the way to go.

Altered Idol wrote...

I love both games and have played through them countless times.

Both have great strengths and weaknesses in them, but overall I think the experience is unrivalled at this moment.

ME1did have a bit more freedom and expansiveness that ME2. ME2 did feel alot more linear but I think that was a deliberate attempt to emphasis the importance of reaching the collector base quickly. I think it was a bold step that hasn't been universally perceived as a correct one.

ME1also had a better variety of side quests/missions. ME2's side quests are slightly repetetive though this has been rectified somewhat with DLC. There was also more of an RPG feel to ME1, ME2 felt more like an action-shooter. I like both types of games so it didnt bother me a greatdeal.

I thought ME2's loyalty missions were much better by and large. There was great feeling attached to achieving them and obviously,greater consequences too I thought the squadmate interactions were far more organic/fluid, they felt more real.

I also felt the Paragon/Renegade interupts were an excellent touch and by and large, the conversation system worked as well as ME, perhaps better in some instances.

In conclusion, I love both games and nothing will stop me saying otherwise.

I think there is some validity to the OP's argument but I also believe there are more than enough redeeming qualities than make ME2 definitely worth playing.

Agreed on this as well.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 15 février 2011 - 02:39 .

[Altered Idol]

TowranPeter wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...

I love both games and have played through them countless times.

Both have great strengths and weaknesses in them, but overall I think the experience is unrivalled at this moment.

ME1 did have a bit more freedom and expansiveness that ME2. ME2 did feel alot more linear but I think that was a deliberate attempt to emphasis the importance of reaching the collector base quickly. I think it was a bold step that hasn't been universally perceived as a correct one.

ME1 also had a better variety of side quests/missions. ME2's side quests are slightly repetetive though this has been rectified somewhat with DLC. There was also more of an RPG feel to ME1, ME2 felt more like an action-shooter. I like both types of games so it didnt bother me a great deal.

I thought ME2's loyalty missions were much better by and large. There was great feeling attached to achieving them and obviously, greater consequences too  I thought the squadmate interactions were far more organic/fluid, they felt more real.

I also felt the Paragon/Renegade interupts were an excellent touch and by and large, the conversation system worked as well as ME, perhaps better in some instances.

In conclusion, I love both games and nothing will stop me saying otherwise.

I think there is some validity to the OP's argument but I also believe there are more than enough redeeming qualities than make ME2 definitely worth playing.

My only problem with the loyalty missions is that the game clearly identifies them as "loyalty missions".  Instead of calling them loyalty missions, just don't call it anything.  Let it unfold naturally in the story.

When I highlight over a character's info, I don't want to see "you haven't completed his loyalty mission yet", that's like giving a spoiler of things yet to come. It's dumb.

Once I realized that every dossier had a loyalty mission, the game felt very generic.  Loyalty missions should of unfolded without me knowing about them in any way. They should of unfolded naturally, keeping the mystery and surprise.

I see what you are saying, that the loyalty missions shouldn't be spelled out for you. That they should develop and be incoporated naturally into the gameplay.

Perhaps its a fair point. I didn't find it too much of an issue but we're all different like. It didnt feel a bit linear but not overly so.

The point I was making was that the missions themselves were interesting and added a bit of depth and emotion to the characters by and large.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 15 février 2011 - 02:39 .

[The7Sins]

TowranPeter wrote...

I played Mass Effect 1 over & over again. I couldn't stop playing it. It was just so damn good, it reminded me of the old school genre of scifi. Scifi used to have deep, thought provoking meaning but you don't get that goodness anymore.  Mass Effect one reminds me a lot of the Blade Runner and Dune.   I think I discovered every nook and cranny in ME1.   When I finally beat it, it was a huge satisfying euphoria.

But now with Mass Effect 2, I don't know why but I'm bored.  There isn't enough mental stimulation and not enough dialogue. Sure it's a good shooter and sure I can up the difficulty, but that's not what I mean.  I'm talking about thought provoking content that makes you think and pushes your limits.  The exploration is really not there anymore, it all feels like a very straight and linear. The vastness is gone.  It feels like a "Video game" instead of an "epic experience".

I think the planet scanning really destroyed the game in a lot of ways.  It's so utterly boring that it discourages playing the game. The planet scanning is like this horrible punishment that Bioware bestowed upon us.  Maybe Bioware hates us in some way and they wanted to get back at us?  I immediately think if I did something wrong to ****** Bioware off for them to force this horrible task on us. 

Anyways, Mass Effect One was an epic masterpiece.  Mass Effect two story sucks so far but hey it shoots good, just like many other games out there.  Good shooter, no story, but at least you have a target to shoot.

Agreed. ME1 was a great game. ME2 was very subpar with a weak plot full of retcons and plot holes. Only reason to play ME2 is to get the ME1 Shepards able to be imported to ME3. Hopefully Bioware rectifies there mistake and makes ME3 more in the vein of ME1 but after the fail of ME2 I do not have much confidence.

[ROD525]

Lumikki wrote...

Registering game to this forum is sign to other people here that it's legal game owner. It's about respecting this forums people when come here and bash the game. So, that we other people here know that someone isn't using illegal copy of game or just tolling fun of it or hiding behind other accouts. That's why I asked it.

Maybe the op rented the game,or its a friends copy. To automatically assume the game is pirated because it's not registered is silly. I bought ME2 at midnight launch but didn't register until febuary while posting on the forums. Some people dont care.
Also respect given is respect earned.

Modifié par ROD525, 15 février 2011 - 04:35 .

[Thompson family]

Six pages responding to somebody playing a game he/she doesn't like.



What a world.

[Rune-Chan]

Thompson family wrote...

Six pages responding to somebody playing a game he/she doesn't like.

What a world.

Sadly half of them are in agreement. I never understood the logic of going out of your way to discuss things that you didn't like. You'd think if something is so bad you'd want to forget about it.

Nothing wrong with providing construtive criticism but "Mass Effect 2 is fail, ME1, I want it's babies" is hardly going to inspire Bioware to come up with ways to improve things for Mass Effect 3.

[rabidhanar]

I discuss in the forums about decisions that I believe are mistakes so that further enstallments in the series do not make the same mistake (hopefully).



If a company does not know what parts of a game I personally dislike, they can potentially keep making the same "mistakes" and I would stop buying that company's games.



To the OP, people will respond negatively if you make a new thread about a subject that has previously been debated. Certain people will also respond negatively if you necro a thread while stating your opinion. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation.

[Dexi]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

@Dexi LOLZ Where did you find that?

Google images: "cool story bro"

And... omg... this page is still running.... 

[Whatever42]

rabidhanar wrote...

I discuss in the forums about decisions that I believe are mistakes so that further enstallments in the series do not make the same mistake (hopefully).

If a company does not know what parts of a game I personally dislike, they can potentially keep making the same "mistakes" and I would stop buying that company's games.

To the OP, people will respond negatively if you make a new thread about a subject that has previously been debated. Certain people will also respond negatively if you necro a thread while stating your opinion. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation.

While I think sharing your disappointment on the developer's forums is as legitimate as sharing your pleasure, don't delude yourself that the developers seriously consider feedback here. A couple dozen posters ranting that they want everything from a complete return to traditional RPG mechanics to a 10 hour romance with Tali has zero effect.  What you view as mistakes, I might view as triumphs and our squabbling back and forth on our completely subjective viewpoints is meaningless to them.

They listen to professional reviewers. They listen to focus groups and surveys. They listen to their sales numbers. They sure don't listen to these forums.

[rabidhanar]

I know that my opinion hardly matters...It just feels good getting all the hate out in the open.



As to "professional reviews", reviews these days really do not give either explanations for the scores and also give similar "great" reviews to many games, even if said games are filled with bovine excrement. I give reviews the same attention that I give towards fox news, I.e. None.

[KainrycKarr]

ME2 has more dialogue than ME1, to my knowledge.



Both are amazing games.

[Ahglock]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
I think the review scores were way too good.  It seems odd to me to rate something 5 out of 5 when in your review you mention how incredibly boring scanning is and that task takes up like 1/5th the game unless it is your second play through or you have a good ME1 import and then it is like 1/7th the game.

I don't quite check your numbers there. My last playthrough showed about 2 hours mining, total. Maybe 2-1/2 since I figure some mining happened when I looked for N7 missions.

Still too much mining. Bio really shouldn't try to implement exploration gameplay -- they're not very good at it.

So 1/10th your play time once all the tricks to streamline it are known, when you might be starting with a decent pile of minerals etc.  Should reviews be based on that?  I don't think so at least, they should be base don what you would expect a player to meet in their first play through.  The reviewers had a big complaint with the scanning, but they never factored it itno there scores.  Heck even if it is only 1/10th the game for someone who knows nothing about scanning that is bad.  If 1/10th of your math test was absolute fail would you get a 100% on the test?  I don't mind ME2 getting good reviews, my **** is about all the perfect reviews they handed out.  The curve is set too high if a game has a feature that takes hours of your time and sucks to all hell and you still give it a perfect score. 

Anyways, at least for the OP I hope he read what I wrote, because he has a huge problem with scanning it is wrecking the game for him.  Gibbed save editor is how you cas rez ME2 when your game dies from scanning.

[Ahglock]

ROD525 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Registering game to this forum is sign to other people here that it's legal game owner. It's about respecting this forums people when come here and bash the game. So, that we other people here know that someone isn't using illegal copy of game or just tolling fun of it or hiding behind other accouts. That's why I asked it.

Maybe the op rented the game,or its a friends copy. To automatically assume the game is pirated because it's not registered is silly. I bought ME2 at midnight launch but didn't register until febuary while posting on the forums. Some people dont care.
Also respect given is respect earned.

Also can you register used copies?  Heck I had enough of  a problem registering either dragon age or ME2 and I bought all my stuff through steam.  And I still haven't registered awakenings even though I have it and got it through steam as well.

Modifié par Ahglock, 15 février 2011 - 07:32 .

[Thompson family]

rabidhanar wrote...

I discuss in the forums about decisions that I believe are mistakes so that further enstallments in the series do not make the same mistake (hopefully).

If a company does not know what parts of a game I personally dislike, they can potentially keep making the same "mistakes" and I would stop buying that company's games.

To the OP, people will respond negatively if you make a new thread about a subject that has previously been debated. Certain people will also respond negatively if you necro a thread while stating your opinion. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't situation.

That might be a valid concept except for one thing.
There are, quite literally, hundreds of these "I want by real RPG back/ME1 was better" threads on this forum.
Hundreds.
How do I know that? Because there's 365 days in a year and at least one of these threads opens up every day.
About a week after ME2 came out, I decided to keep a count on how many threads on this exact same topic were opened on that particular day.
Six.
Six "ME2 isn't a real RPG/I want my ME1 back" threads in ONE DAY.
And that was just on the "General Discussion" forum.
Want to argue that's a measure of the degree fans are upset about this? Fine. Here's my interpretation:

The people who are upset about this don't even read each other. If they did, they wouldn't start so many utterly repretative threads.

So if you don't even read each other -- why should I read any of this?

Why should BioWare?

There hasn't been a fresh thought on this topic in more than a year.

[Chickenpotpie]

I'm struggling to suppress the urge to kill you (joke)

[abaris]

I never understood the logic of going out of your way to discuss things that you didn't like. You'd think if something is so bad you'd want to forget about it.

The nature of a discussion is, there are usually two sides.

Its not as if most of the posters would have thrown around profanities or flames, but explained in detail what they liked and disliked.

I for one have never understood the need for all happy go lucky. If everyone's in agreement, what's the use of any discussion?

Also can you register used copies?  Heck I had enough of 
a problem registering either dragon age or ME2 and I bought all my
stuff through steam.  And I still haven't registered awakenings even
though I have it and got it through steam as well.

I've quite a lot of Bioware games, starting out with NWN1, which I haven't registered. Usually, I don't see the need to do it, since I have only hard copies.

Modifié par abaris, 15 février 2011 - 08:01 .

[Obadiah]

ROD525 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Registering game to this forum is sign to other people here that it's legal game owner. It's about respecting this forums people when come here and bash the game. So, that we other people here know that someone isn't using illegal copy of game or just tolling fun of it or hiding behind other accouts. That's why I asked it.

Maybe the op rented the game,or its a friends copy. To automatically assume the game is pirated because it's not registered is silly.
...

I believe it is called a "hijack."

[Gatt9]

Machines Are Us wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Six pages responding to somebody playing a game he/she doesn't like.

What a world.

Sadly half of them are in agreement. I never understood the logic of going out of your way to discuss things that you didn't like. You'd think if something is so bad you'd want to forget about it.

Nothing wrong with providing construtive criticism but "Mass Effect 2 is fail, ME1, I want it's babies" is hardly going to inspire Bioware to come up with ways to improve things for Mass Effect 3.

I can help you with that. 

It's a method of letting a company know that their product did not measure up to expectations,  and if they wish to sell a copy next time,  they may wish to contemplate changes. 

In fact,  ME2 is the product of some people complaining about ME.  Specifically,  Planet-scanning is a result of complaints about the Mako.

So basically,  it's highly ironic that you're saying that the complaints about ME2 are irrelevant when it's the complaints about ME that resulted in ME2.

While I think sharing your disappointment on the developer's forums is as legitimate as sharing your pleasure, don't delude yourself that the developers seriously consider feedback here. A couple dozen posters ranting that they want everything from a complete return to traditional RPG mechanics to a 10 hour romance with Tali has zero effect.  What you view as mistakes, I might view as triumphs and our squabbling back and forth on our completely subjective viewpoints is meaningless to them.

They listen to professional reviewers. They listen to focus groups and surveys. They listen to their sales numbers. They sure don't listen to these forums.

As above,  and...

There's a mounting body of evidence that "Professional reviewers" aren't very professional.  If anyone's listening to anything,  the body of evidence is indicating that the releationship is the other way around.

I've been a gamer for 26 years.  In those 26 years the only time I've ever been surveyed is by Wizards of the Coast.  I've never had a video game company survey me,  I've never met anyone that has,  I've never seen one,  I've never seen one referenced.  Which leads me to conclude that surveys do not exist. 

As far as listening to sales numbers go,  that's not true either.  According to wikipedia,  Baldur's Gate 2 sold 2 million units,  ME2 sold 1.6 million.  So according to the sales figures,  ME2 was a massive mistake.

What they listen to are two things:  Suits who are only interested in the biggest bottom line possible without consideration for quality or market segment,  and Piracy.

The Suits aren't interested in diversifying,  they don't want a game to sell well in the RPG segment,  they want a game to sell to every single gamer.  In order to do that,  they demand games appeal to every single gamer,  by stripping out the defining characteristics of genres.  RPGs are a smaller market than Shooters,  so take out the RPG stuff and make it more like a Shooter.  Contrast this to Hollywood,  where the genres are all attended to and properly budgeted for the expected sales in relation to that market segment.

Piracy has crushed the PC market.  Which is why everything's made for the consoles.

People keep ascribing this mythical knowledge of what people want,  it's not true.  Decisions aren't being made by "Oh,  X is so outdated,  we know everyone *loves* Y now".  They're being made on the belief that "Shooters,  RTS,  and Action sells,  make it one of those three,  we want 15 million units sold this year,  and the ~2 million units a RPG sells isn't acceptable"

That might be a valid concept except for one thing.
There are, quite literally, hundreds of these "I want by real RPG back/ME1 was better" threads on this forum.
Hundreds.
How do I know that? Because there's 365 days in a year and at least one of these threads opens up every day.
About a week after ME2 came out, I decided to keep a count on how many threads on this exact same topic were opened on that particular day.
Six.
Six "ME2 isn't a real RPG/I want my ME1 back" threads in ONE DAY.
And that was just on the "General Discussion" forum.
Want to argue that's a measure of the degree fans are upset about this? Fine. Here's my interpretation:

The people who are upset about this don't even read each other. If they did, they wouldn't start so many utterly repretative threads.

So if you don't even read each other -- why should I read any of this?

Why should BioWare?

There hasn't been a fresh thought on this topic in more than a year

Well then,  that's a really good sign that there's a widely recognized problem with the game isn't it?  I'm sorry that it bothers you,  but honestly,  this is what happens when you change a game's genre.

You should've seen the Fallout 3 forums.  6 threads were just an hour there,  for the entire development cycle. 

Why should Bioware?  Bethseda didn't read their threads.  They shipped 4.6 million units of Fallout 3.  Generous rough math using the NPD numbers and postulating for international sales indicated they sold ~2.2 million units before they dropped off the chart.

So why should Bioware?  Leaving half of your units shipped on store shelves because you didn't read the threads is a pretty good motivator.

[Whatever42]

Gatt9 wrote...

In fact,  ME2 is the product of some people complaining about ME.  Specifically,  Planet-scanning is a result of complaints about the Mako.

So basically,  it's highly ironic that you're saying that the complaints about ME2 are irrelevant when it's the complaints about ME that resulted in ME2.

Trust me, it wasn't the complaining here that did it. It's that most of the reviewers panned the mako. And planet scanning will change in ME3 because again, its the reviewers that panned it.

Do you really think Bioware believes that a few disgruntled posters on their forums are a good source of feedback? That they're going to disregard that 100+ GOTY and reader's choice awards because of your sweeping condemnation?

There will be changes in ME3 that you enjoy, I'm sure of it. But they aren't doing it because of our feedback.  And all I can say is thank goodness. I don't even want them listening to me and I'm highly biases in favour of me - but what the heck do I know about designing video games?

[Iakus]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Trust me, it wasn't the complaining here that did it. It's that most of the reviewers panned the mako. And planet scanning will change in ME3 because again, its the reviewers that panned it.

Do you really think Bioware believes that a few disgruntled posters on their forums are a good source of feedback? That they're going to disregard that 100+ GOTY and reader's choice awards because of your sweeping condemnation?

There will be changes in ME3 that you enjoy, I'm sure of it. But they aren't doing it because of our feedback.  And all I can say is thank goodness. I don't even want them listening to me and I'm highly biases in favour of me - but what the heck do I know about designing video games?

My great hope for ME 3 is based on how LOTSB was presented:

There was banter between Shepard and Liara
Events in ME 1 were directly referred to; past Cerberus crimes, Ilos, the rachni, the Council, etc
Liara asks Shepard how he's handling things, and wants a serious answer
There were files about your sqquadmates that added a whole new layer of depth to them.
Liara was not dressed as a stripper (okay this shouldn't have been a surprise, but after ME 2 it kinda was)

All of these, among other things, had been gone over (at length) on the boards.  Were these weaknesses in the game that reviewers ponted out? (serious question, I don't read game reviews)  Or does Bioware actually listen to feedback from fans and actually take them under advisement?

Then there's the new Miranda armor...

[Thompson family]

According to wikipedia,  Baldur's Gate 2 sold 2 million units,  ME2 sold 1.6 million.  So according to the sales figures,  ME2 was a massive mistake.

First off, this is the quote from Wikipedia: "Mass Effect 2 was a commercial and critical success, selling over two million copies within its first week of release" [emphasis added.]

VGChartz -- granted, another site not exactly famous for its up-to-date sales figure but at least it's not Wikipedia -- says ME2 had sold 2.5 million copies on the XBOX 360 alone, according to its latest figures. ME1 sold a little less than 2.4 M on the 360 in the three years since its release.

The arithmetic is simple: ME2 sold half a million more units on the XBOX 360 alone than BG2 sold for computers.

Note that these figures do not include ME2 PC disc sales, digital downloads or PS3 sales in any form.

ME2 -- at the absolute worst -- sold slightly better than ME1, so the most
anyone can claim  about the "genre change's" effect on sales is that it is a wash.

Now throw in all the DLC ME2's sold compared to "Bring Down the Sky" and "Pinnacle Station." Throw in the cost of joining Cerberus Network if you buy a used copy.

In terms of profitabllity -- the real bottom line, not just raw sales -- ME2 beats ME1 in absolutely every way.

Now, as for these constant complaints:

Well then,  that's a really good sign that there's a widely recognized problem with the game isn't it?

Pardon me as I repeat myself, but it appears to be necessary:

Want to argue that's a measure of the degree fans are upset about this? Fine. Here's my interpretation:

The
people who are upset about this don't even read each other. If they
did, they wouldn't start so many utterly repretative threads.

Then there's long, totally irrevelant talk about another game. No use at all responding to that.

Modifié par Thompson family, 15 février 2011 - 10:52 .

[Terror_K]

iakus wrote...
Then there's the new Miranda armor...

Though any progress that made was completely neutered by the fact that they didn't even give her a proper helmet to go with it in hazardous areas and she was stuck with the same retarded breathing mask she always had. Not to mention that despite many calls for "no face-obstructing things" after the first AAP, we still get silly visors and huds on her and the others.

It's funny how despite BioWare's claims of listening and saying that AAP2 came about because of what was said on the forums they completely miss the point with two major things. It's like they only quickly glance at the comments and pay no real attention. It was the same thing when they decided to release that ME2 Art Book on the store due to popular demand and completely missed the point that what fans were really calling for was a larger, more in-depth one along the lines of the original "Art of Mass Effect" book and not just a blown up version of the dinky CE one.