309 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
...
There are a couple of 500-pages long "Disappointment with ME2" threads, so you may dig all that up, if you're really interested.

In short, the extent of the reqiuired suspension of disbelief was so immersion breaking, and the "gameplay vs. story segregation" so vast, that I couldn't help but nitpick on every and each of "it's just a game" moments. It wasn't a game telling a story, it was a story to give you an excuse to push them buttons in pattern. And the pattern of buttons to be pushed was so repetitive that of itself it became zero fun before the end of the first playthrough.

And even before that pushing the buttons was godawful, compared to ME1. No hotkeys for menus, Sprint/vault/interract keyed to same button,  dragging the Normandy around "space"... What the f*ck were they thinking???

I hate ME2 all afresh now, so keep away from me, people!!!

Things that were better in ME2:
* The mini-games to unlock safes and hack terminals were better. That simon-says minigame on the XBox is tiring. ME2 however took a step back to that with the planet scanning, but at least it looks prettier.
* The squad AI is better. ME1 squaddies constantly get in the way in a fight and block your shots.
* The enemy AI is better. Half the time I beat Krogans pre-level-20 on insanity in ME1 is because the enemy AI crapped out and they just stood there getting shot.
* There was more careful attention to level design so biotic powers didn't constantly fling enemies into locations where they couldn't be shot (lots of fun on Noveria). No more generic pieces of models used for ancient probes and capsules found.
* Removing endless streams of equipment gathering from within the mission stopped breaking up the gameplay with player choices that, let's face it, wouldn't affect the gameplay in the level much anyway. There was way WAY too much loot to manage in ME1 (although it is really cool the first time you find Snowblind or Sledgehammer ammo, or Predator M armor). The XBox interface didn't help. The change to setting up your team's loadout at the beginning and then just going forward with the mission was an improvement, and stopped turning Shep into a constant looter (though he's still a bit of one).

ME1 would be much improved if it picked up some of these changes, and I don't think this contributed to criticisms of the story in ME2. The story in ME2 began to suffer when they turned Shep into a tech zombie.

Modifié par Obadiah, 16 février 2011 - 02:00 .

[tonnactus]

Mass Effect 2 lacks things like the thorian or the rachni that make me feel also as a sort of adventurer and explorer in space. And with the bad main story and without a good villain,only pokemon with squadmembers is left.

[Therefore_I_Am]

TowranPeter wrote...

I played Mass Effect 1 over & over again. I couldn't stop playing it. It was just so damn good, it reminded me of the old school genre of scifi. Scifi used to have deep, thought provoking meaning but you don't get that goodness anymore.  Mass Effect one reminds me a lot of the Blade Runner and Dune.   I think I discovered every nook and cranny in ME1.   When I finally beat it, it was a huge satisfying euphoria.

But now with Mass Effect 2, I don't know why but I'm bored.  There isn't enough mental stimulation and not enough dialogue. Sure it's a good shooter and sure I can up the difficulty, but that's not what I mean.  I'm talking about thought provoking content that makes you think and pushes your limits.  The exploration is really not there anymore, it all feels like a very straight and linear. The vastness is gone.  It feels like a "Video game" instead of an "epic experience".

I think the planet scanning really destroyed the game in a lot of ways.  It's so utterly boring that it discourages playing the game. The planet scanning is like this horrible punishment that Bioware bestowed upon us.  Maybe Bioware hates us in some way and they wanted to get back at us?  I immediately think if I did something wrong to ****** Bioware off for them to force this horrible task on us. 

Anyways, Mass Effect One was an epic masterpiece.  Mass Effect two story sucks so far but hey it shoots good, just like many other games out there.  Good shooter, no story, but at least you have a target to shoot.

[Hathur]

TowranPeter wrote...

But now with Mass Effect 2, I don't know why but I'm bored.  There isn't enough mental stimulation and not enough dialogue. Sure it's a good shooter and sure I can up the difficulty, but that's not what I mean.  I'm talking about thought provoking content that makes you think and pushes your limits.  The exploration is really not there anymore, it all feels like a very straight and linear. The vastness is gone.  It feels like a "Video game" instead of an "epic experience"

Cannot disagree with this more... for the simple reason that I recently recorded a full playthrough of ME1 and ME2 (and have them on my youtube channel)... ME2 has a LOT more dialogue.... tremendously more... and frankly, a lot of the dialogue in ME2 is more interesting in general as well.

ME1''s dialogue that pertained to the plot was better than ME2's dialogue that pertained to its plot (ME2's plot being woefully poor compared to ME1)... but the character discussions, loyalty missions, recruitment missions, all of them vastly more gripping than the general discussions in ME1... and ME2 has vastly more of it too.

Mordin's loyalty mission alone is leagues more interesting that almost anything else in ME1... same goes for Tali's loyalty story (Both of these stories alone have massive implications on a galactic scale)... then there's Legion's as well (once again, massive implications on a galactic scale)..... Then there's Liaras, arguably one of the best / most interesting story developments... and once again, massive impact there as well.

ME1 has a wonderful plot and a damn terrific story... ME2's story is weak in comparison.. but it compensates very nicely by having much stronger character interactions and development.

In ME1, look to the plot for your hook.... everything else on the side is actually quite mediocre and uninteresting... In ME2, it's reversed... the plot is uninteresting but the characters and "side stuff" is tremendously fascinating and truly gripping at times.

One just needs to look at the 2 games in a different way... both are incredible... but incredible for different reasons.

[RainyDayLover]

^ And not to mention in ME1, all the dialogue choices (top, bottom, middle) had Shepard say the exact same thing (most of the time).

[tonnactus]

abaris wrote...


In ME1, the AI acts very weak, compared to ME2, the side missions are tedious and only evolve around three sets of buildings with crates stacked differently and the combat system was very weak - mostly due to a weak AI acting like suicide bombers.

Why the ai shouldnt flank you with powers like immunity? That isnt suicide if sucessfull...

By the way,krogans took cover in the first game and used more then one weapon. Look how they behave now.

[tonnactus]

Hathur wrote...


In ME1, look to the plot for your hook.... everything else on the side is actually quite mediocre and uninteresting...
One just needs to look at the 2 games in a different way... both are incredible... but incredible for different reasons.

Cerberus missions? Geth incursions?
Bringing down the sky?
All uninteresting? At least some of those sidemissions have npcs to talk to and interesting storys. Not like the N7 crap.
And actually squadmembers even sometimes gives comments.(Kaidan/L2 biotics)

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 février 2011 - 03:27 .

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...

Cerberus missions? Geth incursions?
Bringing down the sky?
All uninteresting? At least some of those sidemissions have npcs to talk to and interesting storys. Not like the N7 crap.
And actually squadmembers even sometimes gives comments.(Kaidan/L2 biotics)

Loyalty missions>all other Bioware side quests>any Mass Effect side quest>any other Mass Effect 2 side quest.

At least they put enough time into loyalty missions that they actually could create unique environments instead of recycling the same crap. Also, during most ME side missions, squad mates' lines were interchangeable, reducing their value.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 février 2011 - 03:29 .

[Fixers0]

Il Divo wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Cerberus missions? Geth incursions?
Bringing down the sky?
All uninteresting? At least some of those sidemissions have npcs to talk to and interesting storys. Not like the N7 crap.
And actually squadmembers even sometimes gives comments.(Kaidan/L2 biotics)

Main plot missions of quality > Loyalty missions>all other Bioware side quests>any Mass Effect side quest>any other Mass Effect 2 side quest.
 

Fixed it for you.

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...

Loyalty missions>all other Bioware side quests>any Mass Effect side quest>any other Mass Effect 2 side quest.

Depends on the "loyality" missions. Thanes,Mirandas and Garrus one with no link to main story are a waste of time for me.

Legions and Talis were actually ones that i liked because they were connected to the main story.(but i hoped to see more of the flotilla)

At least they put enough time into loyalty missions that they actually could create unique environments 

Lol. Where is the big difference between the warehouses in Garrus or Mirandas personal mission?
Jacob ones also looks quite similar with that of Zaeed.People are easy to bluff i guess.

[Il Divo]

Fixers0 wrote...

Fixed it for you.

Your name is ill-chosen. We were discussing the quality of RPG side quests. You do not seem qualified to fix anything, let alone to read.

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...

Depends on the "loyality" missions. Thanes,Mirandas and Garrus one with no link to main story are a waste of time for me.

Legions and Talis were actually ones that i liked because they were connected to the main story.(but i hoped to see more of the flotilla)

Try looking at most RPGs in existence. Most are not connected to the main story, yet in many ways were high and above any of Mass Effect's. Who cares that ME's side quests involved the Rachni when nothing new was introduced? How was Cerberus main quest related in Mass Effect? How is it better quest design in Mass Effect that I had to spend more time getting to my destination than  completing the quest itself?

Lol. Where is the big difference between the warehouses in Garrus or Mirandas personal mission?
Jacob ones also looks quite similar with that of Zaeed.People are easy to bluff i guess.

Clearly people are easy to fool if you couldn't tell the difference between the environments of Samara's, Jacob's, Tali's, and Legion's loyalty missions. Or, did you think Mass Effect's environments were all hand-tailored? The comparison between the two is laughable.

Modifié par Il Divo, 16 février 2011 - 03:48 .

[WarChicken78]

Dear OP.

I'm replying to your initial statement - I have only read the first few posts and not all 8 pages.



While I absolutely agree, that a deep and nice storyline is fine, I don't see ME2 lacking one.

While ME1 takes a very classical appoach to storytelling - One big story where most of the sidequests are tied in a little, ME2 takes another approach. The Main Storyline is shorter and there are several others told next to it. Both approaches are completely valid and work.

The thing that makes you like ME1 more than ME2 is simply a matter of taste,



I prefer neither - I like both approaches, but the heavy content recycling and endless planet exploration of ME1 makes me prefer ME2. Yes I miss a little planetary driving, but I still prefer the very few and short hammerhead missions to hours long of mountaineering in a rubber bathtub.



And that's why I played ME1 two times completely and ME2 eight times.

[Zulu_DFA]

Obadiah wrote...

Things that were better in ME2:
* The mini-games to unlock safes and hack terminals were better. That simon-says minigame on the XBox is tiring. ME2 however took a step back to that with the planet scanning, but at least it looks prettier.

That seems a purely X-box problem to me. On the PC there was a different hacking minigame which alone owns everything ME2 had to offer (including the badassest renegade interrupts).

Obadiah wrote...

* The squad AI is better. ME1 squaddies constantly get in the way in a fight and block your shots.

Wow, ME1squad AI got fixed!!! Well, kudos. And that's how everything should have been hanldled: fixed and improved, not revamped and removed.

Obadiah wrote...

* The enemy AI is better. Half the time I beat Krogans pre-level-20 on insanity in ME1 is because the enemy AI crapped out and they just stood there getting shot.

The enemy AI in ME2 is worse than in ME1. Well, it's actually the same "home on Shepard", but there remained only two types of enemies in ME2: ranged and melee. While in ME1 there were at least four: melee, ranged, long-range and specialist. Therefore, enemy AI is 50% less variative in ME2, than in ME1.

Obadiah wrote...

* There was more careful attention to level design so biotic powers didn't constantly fling enemies into locations where they couldn't be shot (lots of fun on Noveria). No more generic pieces of models used for ancient probes and capsules found.

Level design in ME2 simply sucks. Yes, apparently they cut most of the corners where the mooks could get stuck in the wall, (still a lot of it on Garrus' base and some other places), and Shepard & Co never get stuck in the wall, becasue... enemies never use Throw or Pull on them!!!

Obadiah wrote...

* Removing endless streams of equipment gathering from within the mission stopped breaking up the gameplay with player choices that, let's face it, wouldn't affect the gameplay in the level much anyway. There was way WAY too much loot to manage in ME1 (although it is really cool the first time you find Snowblind or Sledgehammer ammo, or Predator M armor). The XBox interface didn't help. The change to setting up your team's loadout at the beginning and then just going forward with the mission was an improvement, and stopped turning Shep into a constant looter (though he's still a bit of one).

So they simply removed the inventory altogether. And now our super-duper-space-James-Bond can gain access to certain equipment only on a single spot in the entire Galaxy, although every other merc might seem to have what he needs. Also our super-duper-star-captain-on-a-racist-issued-ship hast to pick up aliens around the Galaxy to just enter certain compartments of the ship. This is SO RETARDED, and have now words to express it. Or, rather, I have them, but they would all look like this ****, *****, ****, *****, *****, ***, ****, ******, ****, ****, ***** here.

Obadiah wrote...
ME1 would be much improved if it picked up some of these changes, and I don't think this contributed to criticisms of the story in ME2. The story in ME2 began to suffer when they turned Shep into a tech zombie.

ME2 wouldn't be such a retarded game if EA/BioWare didn't target the 12-18 year old audience with Miranda's assshots.

[Fixers0]

Il Divo wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Fixed it for you.

Your name is ill-chosen. We were discussing the quality of RPG side quests. You do not seem qualified to fix anything, let alone to read.

Hah, this thread is not about discussing the Quality of RPG side quest, it's about what makes mass effect 1 much more interesting to follow then Mass effect 2.

[Il Divo]

Fixers0 wrote...

Hah, this thread is not about discussing the Quality of RPG side quest, it's about what makes mass effect 1 much more interesting to follow then Mass effect 2.

A thread can have multiple branches to it. My post was directed at analyzing Mass Effect side quests in comparison to Mass Effect 2 side quests. Your post was a feeble attempt at being witty.

[tonnactus]

[quote]Il Divo wrote...
that i liked because they were connected to the main story.(but i hoped to see more of the flotilla) [/quote]

Try looking at most RPGs in existence. Most are not connected to the main story, yet in many ways were high and above any of Mass Effect's. Who cares that ME's side quests involved the Rachni when nothing new was introduced?
[/quote]

The rachni broodwarriors were something new for example.There werent on noveria.
[quote]
How was Cerberus main quest related in Mass Effect?
[/quote]
Not main quest related,but connected with some of shepardts past...


[quote]
Clearly people are easy to fool if you couldn't tell the difference between the environments of Samara's, Jacob's, Tali's, and Legion's loyalty missions.
[/quote]

Some variations of a club,jungle,warehouse or ship enviroment. Nothing more.

So lets compare how many differences between jacobs and zaeeds mission exists considering the enviroment(jungle).

Or the missions of garrus and miranda.

Thats not what i understand under "unique".

[Fixers0]

Il Divo wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Hah, this thread is not about discussing the Quality of RPG side quest, it's about what makes mass effect 1 much more interesting to follow then Mass effect 2.

A thread can have multiple branches to it. My post was directed at analyzing Mass Effect side quests in comparison to Mass Effect 2 side quests. Your post was a feeble attempt at being witty.

Well, in that i suggest to you that you look more at the story behind the Side Mission and less to the mission it self.

[UKStory135]

Mass Effect 2 wasn't meant to have a huge story. ME1 was a self contained and wonderful story that introduced you to the Universe and its its main characters. ME2, like most second acts, was about character development and getting the crew into an impossible situation. ME3 will be getting out of the situation. The verdict on ME2's story can't be made until we see the rest of it. People even hated Empire until RotJ came. Criticizing a second act's plot is like criticizing a motorcycle for having two wheels.

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...

The rachni broodwarriors were something new for example.There werent on noveria. 

And what was done with them? Absolutely nothing of value. "Hey, new rachni! Go kill them!" Is that the extent of main-quest related?

Not main quest related,but connected with some of shepardts past...

By 'connected', you mean a slight reference if Shepard happened to be a sole survivor? Try Planescape Torment if you actually want a solid-attempt at connecting a character to side quests. As it stands, Mass Effect offered an extremely feeble attempt.

I'm also curious how Garrus' or Wrex's missions manage to hold up in that regard.

Some variations of a club,jungle,warehouse or ship enviroment. Nothing more. 

So, these environments are 'nothing more' because they strive to be what they look like? Jacob's loyalty mission takes place in a jungle, so it should look like a jungle. However, it's still a unique environment as it was hand-crafted. Mass Effect features many bases that are exact replicas of each other, offering absolutely no differentiation between them. 

If you are going to segregate your in-game environments from your side quests, it is a necessity to offer diverse environments.  See Jade Empire's Black Leopard School as a perfect example.

So lets compare how many differences between jacobs and zaeeds mission exists considering the enviroment(jungle).

Or the missions of garrus and miranda.

Thats not what i understand under "unique".

You mean the difference between fighting across a work factory hunting Blue Suns vs. investigating a beach sytle setting and determining what turned a downed Alliance craft into a 'Lord of the Flies' type life-style? That kind of unique?

Or, let me guess, by 'unique' do you prefer Mass Effect's style:

Call from Hackett-->locate planet in distress-->Drive Mako to Generic base-->kill 2 rooms of generic enemies-->Hackett again. Rinse and repeat. Is that the kind of unique you strive for?

[Thompson family]

WrestlesWithKernels wrote...

Thompson family wrote...
I'd like to know whether INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE survives. And if it does, HOW? If ME2 was a book, it would be a page turner.

Well, of course it does!  Intelligent life quite definitely survives.

I mean, Reapers are intelligent, right, and they are alive, right . . . ?

A fair point. Revise that statment to "intelligent life in the Galaxy."  The Reapers do, after all, leave the galaxy for dark space.

Modifié par Thompson family, 16 février 2011 - 04:08 .

[Il Divo]

Fixers0 wrote...

Well, in that i suggest to you that you look more at the story behind the Side Mission and less to the mission it self.

And I already have.

Mass Effect's plot> Mass Effect 2's plot.

Is that what you wanted? I give it to you freely. And yet, despite this, Mass Effect still offers what I consider one of the weakest handling of side quests in any Bioware game for a multitude of reasons, especially in comparison to ME2's loyatly missions or Kotor's/Jade Empire's side quests.

[Thompson family]

Chaos Gate wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

However, ME2 is a sequel, and the middle of a trilogy at that. I never expected the same experience.

Such an expectation is unjustified.

If this is the "Mass Effect 2 was inevitably going to be poor because it takes place in the middle of the trilogy/series" argument, then I strongly disagree.

If this was indeed the case, then Harry Potter books 2-6 would all suck and fail at the bookshops, Terminator 2 would have flopped dismally, and The Empire Strikes Back wouldn't be regarded as the best of the Star Wars films.

It's an argument that just doen't hold any weight.

That's not a fair summary of what I said, Chaos Gate. What I said (although I admit I worded it poorly) is that I never expected ME2 to be the SAME. I never once implied that it was poor.

To use your own analogy, people read books two through six of the Harry Potter series because they liked Harry (or something else in the first book, I suppose.) He was in a great struggle against a great evil. They wanted to see how it would all turn out.

Nobody who bought volume two -- much less three through six -- expected to meet Harry all over again.

If they had, that would have been an unreasonable expectation.

[abaris]

Why the ai shouldnt flank you with powers like immunity? That isnt suicide if sucessfull...

By the way,krogans took cover in the first game and used more then one weapon. Look how they behave now.

Talking about the side missions. They give the impression of headless chickens rushing here and there, without taking cover, only using stasis for most of the time.

It's much better during the main missions.

That changed for the better. The AI seems to give the "I" more credit in ME2.

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...

By 'connected', you mean a slight reference if Shepard happened to be a sole survivor?

Disarming the bomb as as a warhero. Ruthless shepardt with major kyle...

So, these environments are 'nothing more' because they strive to be what they look like? Jacob's loyalty mission takes place in a jungle, so it should look like a jungle. 

Right,it looks exactly like in zaeeds mission. Funny,i would guess that there isnt much variety regarding plants on different planets regarding Mass Effect 2...

So a jungle on planet x looks exactly like the one on planet y. Is this the variety and uniqueness Mass Effect 2 gave us.Handcrafted earth enviroments?

Or, let me guess, by 'unique' do you prefer Mass Effect's style:
neric base-->kill 2 rooms of generic enemies-->Hackett again. Rinse and repeat. Is that the kind of unique you strive for?

Fine, a strawman.I never claimed that the Mass Effect Sidequests look unique.