309 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil Johnny 666]

Il Divo wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Well, in that i suggest to you that you look more at the story behind the Side Mission and less to the mission it self.

And I already have.

Mass Effect's plot> Mass Effect 2's plot.

Is that what you wanted? I give it to you freely. And yet, despite this, Mass Effect still offers what I consider one of the weakest handling of side quests in any Bioware game for a multitude of reasons, especially in comparison to ME2's loyatly missions or Kotor's/Jade Empire's side quests.

MEh, personally, I thought ME2's loyalty missions to be nothing more than a on-rail shooter mission with a couple of dialogue lines here and there - there were exceptions of course, but they were still tied to a linear experience where you were dragged along. I prefer much more the ME handling of side quests where you weren't teleported somewhere, but you had to find your way where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do, without necessarily resorting to 15 minutes of shooting your way through with the same old, tired, repetitive and predictable encounters. Because playing the game on insanity, you ought to realize how EVERY mission, EVERY encounter are made the exact same way. ME2's shooting may be better than ME1's, but it's infinitely more boring, so I'd rather go back to ME1's shooting if that means less repetition. And in less quantity. There was so much shooting in ME2, you were beginning to wonder if you were playing a shooter with interactive elements rather than an RPG/shooter hybrid.

[tonnactus]

abaris wrote...

Talking about the side missions. They give the impression of headless chickens rushing here and there, without taking cover, only using stasis for most of the time.

They were still dumb.Intelligent enemies would use their superior numbers to try to overwhelm shepardts team. Only the geth actually tried to flank with all of their units. The other ones just have 1-2 slow easy to take out shotgunners.
Too sit in cover until shepardt shoot them dead is not a better ai-behavior in any way.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 février 2011 - 04:27 .

[Babli]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...
MEh, personally, I thought ME2's loyalty missions to be nothing more than a on-rail shooter mission with a couple of dialogue lines here and there - there were exceptions of course, but they were still tied to a linear experience where you were dragged along. I prefer much more the ME handling of side quests where you weren't teleported somewhere, but you had to find your way where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do, without necessarily resorting to 15 minutes of shooting your way through with the same old, tired, repetitive and predictable encounters. Because playing the game on insanity, you ought to realize how EVERY mission, EVERY encounter are made the exact same way. ME2's shooting may be better than ME1's, but it's infinitely more boring, so I'd rather go back to ME1's shooting if that means less repetition. And in less quantity. There was so much shooting in ME2, you were beginning to wonder if you were playing a shooter with interactive elements rather than an RPG/shooter hybrid.

Amen to that.

[tonnactus]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...


MEh, personally, I thought ME2's loyalty missions to be nothing more than a on-rail shooter mission with a couple of dialogue lines here and there - there were exceptions of course,

I want to add that,even in the exceptions,the player dont have any choice. The mission are either slaughter mercs with a couple of dialogue inbetween or strictly non combat ones like with Thane or Samara. That "sucks". In a rpg,the player should be able to actually choice to resolve a problem in a peacefull way even if the situations didnt look like it or vice versa inniate combat in a "peacefull" situation.

[that_one_guy02]

I could not disagree more Johnny. Every sidequest was different in ME2. Whereas in ME1 sidequests, they use 3 basic buildings, 1 basic ship, and then used crates to spice it up. The worlds were not much different save for a different terrain color. ME2 worlds feel like different places and no room is used more than once. It ends up being much more immersive and way less repetitive.

=EDIT=

tonnactus wrote...
In a rpg,the player should be able to actually choice to resolve a
problem in a peacefull way even if the situations didnt look like it or
vice versa inniate combat in a "peacefull" situation

In ME1 and ME you cannot initiate comabt in a peaceful situation. In ME2, you can solve plenty of things peacefully. Take Jacob's and Mordin's loyalty mission for example

Modifié par that_one_guy02, 16 février 2011 - 04:39 .

[UKStory135]

Il Divo wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Cerberus missions? Geth incursions?
Bringing down the sky?
All uninteresting? At least some of those sidemissions have npcs to talk to and interesting storys. Not like the N7 crap.
And actually squadmembers even sometimes gives comments.(Kaidan/L2 biotics)

Loyalty missions>all otherw Bioware side quests>any Mass Effect side quest>any other Mass Effect 2 side quest.

At least they put enough time into loyalty missions that they actually could create unique environments instead of recycling the same crap. Also, during most ME side missions, squad mates' lines were interchangeable, reducing their value.

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

 

[UKStory135]

Babli wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...
MEh, personally, I thought ME2's loyalty missions to be nothing more than a on-rail shooter mission with a couple of dialogue lines here and there - there were exceptions of course, but they were still tied to a linear experience where you were dragged along. I prefer much more the ME handling of side quests where you weren't teleported somewhere, but you had to find your way where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do, without necessarily resorting to 15 minutes of shooting your way through with the same old, tired, repetitive and predictable encounters. Because playing the game on insanity, you ought to realize how EVERY mission, EVERY encounter are made the exact same way. ME2's shooting may be better than ME1's, but it's infinitely more boring, so I'd rather go back to ME1's shooting if that means less repetition. And in less quantity. There was so much shooting in ME2, you were beginning to wonder if you were playing a shooter with interactive elements rather than an RPG/shooter hybrid.

Amen to that.

I'd rather play an on-rail shooter than have to drive the Mako.

[Babli]

UKStory135 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Cerberus missions? Geth incursions?
Bringing down the sky?
All uninteresting? At least some of those sidemissions have npcs to talk to and interesting storys. Not like the N7 crap.
And actually squadmembers even sometimes gives comments.(Kaidan/L2 biotics)

Loyalty missions>all otherw Bioware side quests>any Mass Effect side quest>any other Mass Effect 2 side quest.

At least they put enough time into loyalty missions that they actually could create unique environments instead of recycling the same crap. Also, during most ME side missions, squad mates' lines were interchangeable, reducing their value.

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

No one called, you must go to scan some random planet, then land there, shoot some mercs and press button to end mission.

UKStory135 wrote...
I'd rather play an on-rail shooter than have to drive the Mako.

Good for you.

Modifié par Babli, 16 février 2011 - 04:42 .

[tonnactus]

that_one_guy02 wrote...


In ME1 and ME you cannot initiate comabt in a peaceful situation.

Wrong. I could kill Jax for example.(the krogan weapon smuggler).

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 février 2011 - 04:52 .

[KiraTsukasa]

UKStory135 wrote...

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

HAHAHA! I was just playing ME1 last night and got the Mako stuck over a small trench, the nose stuck on a rock in front of me, the back stuck on one behind me, and all six wheels off the ground.

[Evil Johnny 666]

that_one_guy02 wrote...

I could not disagree more Johnny. Every sidequest was different in ME2. Whereas in ME1 sidequests, they use 3 basic buildings, 1 basic ship, and then used crates to spice it up. The worlds were not much different save for a different terrain color. ME2 worlds feel like different places and no room is used more than once. It ends up being much more immersive and way less repetitive.

Thing is, those are not the only side quests. And thing is, I'm more talking about the overall design. I know there's plenty of identical structures and interiors, but that doesn't mean Bioware couldn't work on them and making the side quests a notch better. Rather, they scrapped the whole thing and adopted extremely scripted events. Some are different and fun, yes - particularly Samara and Thane - but the rest, not so much. Well, there's a little something fun in almost every mission (loyalty or not) - except for Jacob and Miranda at least - but most of them still drag you along, and those which have shooting are still made like every other mission out there (Mordin, Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Grunt and Legion). Tali was the best by far.

Back to ME1 side quests, a lot of them involved talking to people on the Citadel and doing things for them, not necessarily going off the station. And you had all the side-quests which you encountered throughout the main quest planets. Feros, where you would find things to the people there, Virmire, where you would help people in the station or in the labs. Granted, some were more simplistic than others, but that doesn't mean they couldn't improve on them. At least they had a much more interesting approach on rpg quests - they weren't even really quests in ME2, but missions - there are quests like I talk of in ME2, but too limited for my tastes, even more when there's too many of these missions which could've been handled better. And just look how the hub-worlds were incredibly small...

And back to Noveria, one of the reasons I like that mission so much, is that it has you talking to people, doing things, in order to advance and continue on. You try to get details, ok I need to go there, how do I do it, I need a pass. Ok now, I need to put the station back up. Okay now, I'm in this relatively open place where there's several people I can talk to and/or help. It's not just a long corridor of shooting entertwined with dialogues. And there's actually a sense of place, real RPG-style level design. Another reason why I find ME2's shooting so boring besides the repetitive and samey encounters, is the level design. Places are rarely built to serve a certain purpose, but make you push your way through them. I miss going through areas built arond something in particular, like Zhu's Hope, the Binary Helix (or was it) base on Feros, The Noveria port and labs. They aren't built as corridors to go through shooting your way, but as real RPG places. And it makes places much more interesting to go through too.

But hey, it's hard for a game to be better than the tastes of the crowd you're catering it towards. (as Casey Hudon said they wanted to make an RPG fun to the COD crowd. Unfortunately, as they may find it fun, it means people who like decent RPGs, or even decent shooters to not be too pleased)

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 16 février 2011 - 05:00 .

[UKStory135]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

HAHAHA! I was just playing ME1 last night and got the Mako stuck over a small trench, the nose stuck on a rock in front of me, the back stuck on one behind me, and all six wheels off the ground.

That's why I quit playing ME1 after only 1.5 playthroughs.  The Mako is horrible and it isn't fun at all.  Planet Scanning also sucks, but its not nearly bad enough to make me quit.

[Obadiah]

KiraTsukasa wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

HAHAHA! I was just playing ME1 last night and got the Mako stuck over a small trench, the nose stuck on a rock in front of me, the back stuck on one behind me, and all six wheels off the ground.

Use the jump button.

[Ahglock]

Obadiah wrote...

KiraTsukasa wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Admiral Hackett Called, he wants us to go to this planet and get dropped off at some random location.  When we get there we are to drive around in an ill-handling vehicle until we get stuck and have to reset or we find that warehouse that looks exactly like the other 20 you took earlier.

HAHAHA! I was just playing ME1 last night and got the Mako stuck over a small trench, the nose stuck on a rock in front of me, the back stuck on one behind me, and all six wheels off the ground.

Use the jump button.

Yeah, I was thinking that as well.  While I think the Mako sucked in a lot of ways, I never got it stuck.  Also in a recent play through I decided to ignore mineral searching etc. on the map and just drove to main points of interest it actually drove fairly well in most cases and was pretty cool.  Yeah sure a couple of the maps were pure mountain hell, but most seemed to have valleys that got you to your destination if you wanted it quick and easy.  It sucks when you try to do the 100% map covered thing though, or take the mountain climbing path to get behind the merc enclave. 

Edit to add:  As for side missions, the ME1 side missions varied from related side quests to why the eff am I doing this when the universe is in danger side quests.  ME2 had the weird situation where the primary side quests were hidden main quests, sure outside of the game I wonder why the eff am I doing this when the universe is in danger, but metagame wise you have to do them to have a successful mission and we all knew it.  With the teleporting to locations, the side quests that were more main quest than the main quest it felt more like a collection of short stories than a book 2 of a trilogy.  Still loved the game, and maybe they were trying to pull off a seven samurai and just failed, but it still felt like a short story collection and not a novel.  nothing necessarily wrong with that, one of my favorite books is a short story collection, but it is a stand alone, not part 2 of a trilogy. 
 

Modifié par Ahglock, 16 février 2011 - 06:12 .

[that_one_guy02]

@ Johnny: Ah, I see what you're saying. I took "design" and "repetition" to mean the physical layout of the sidequest, not the story.

The shooting does get repetitive especially on Insanity, I'll give you that (though I love the combat system so I really don't mind it to a certain extent). And while the general story can be linear, there is usually some decision you have to make, such as what to do with the Krogan you find in Mordin's loyalty mission. Or what to do with the humans pilfering goods in Mordin's recruitment mission.

And for the helping people on the Citadel/sidequests on main missions, ME2 does indeed do that. On Illium you help Liara and can retrieve a lost locket to an Asari. Or on Omega you can do quests for Aria.

I'm also gonna disagree with you on the level layouts not having a purpose beyond providing someplace in which to fight. While layouts like Miranda's don't really have a purpose, the majority of them do. Thane's recruitment, Garrus's recruitment, Samara's recruitment and loyalty, Tali's loyalty, Legion's recruitment, etc. all have some other function than just providing a place to fight.

The trouble with ME2 is that it's event driven not plot driven. It's "go here, do this" not "figure out what's going on at this place." You essentially know the entire plot of ME2 from the beginning. Another issue is that it largely takes place in the Terminus Systems, which are not known for their hospitality.

@tonnactus: Touche

=EDIT=
+1Ahglock for the short story analogy.

Modifié par that_one_guy02, 16 février 2011 - 06:19 .

[Femlob]

Terror_K wrote...

Didn't you know, Nightwriter: the definition of a "troll" on these forums is "anybody who complains about ME2 in any way"

This one's from a few pages back, but I still want to respond to it.

The problem isn't that there are people who complain about ME2; the problem is that these same people generally treat ME1 as if it's a game created by God Himself and delivered to earth by Jesus Christ; a flawless product by The Father, The Son and The Holy BioWare.

I'll be the first to admit that ME2 has its fair share of flaws, but it's incredibly annoying to have these flaws pointed out to you by someone who refuses to acknowledge that ME1 is just as flawed - if not more so.

Just sayin'.

[Obadiah]

Ahglock wrote...
...
While I think the Mako sucked in a lot of ways, I never got it stuck.  Also in a recent play through I decided to ignore mineral searching etc. on the map and just drove to main points of interest it actually drove fairly well in most cases and was pretty cool.  Yeah sure a couple of the maps were pure mountain hell, but most seemed to have valleys that got you to your destination if you wanted it quick and easy.  It sucks when you try to do the 100% map covered thing though, or take the mountain climbing path to get behind the merc enclave. 
...

I can see why lots of people didn't like driving them, since a lot of the space was featureless and empty, or too rocky to be navigable. I would recommend using the zoom button on the XBox while driving in those situations, since it gives you a first person view from the Mako, and makes navigating tricky areas a little easier. No more having the camera view blocked by the underside of the Mako.

I liked the Mako missions because you could hop out of your vehicle a mile away from your target and snipe at enemies, or be sniped by them. You could also drive right up to them, run them over (always fun), then hop out with shotguns and start blasting.

Mako Missions > Planet Scanning

Modifié par Obadiah, 16 février 2011 - 06:36 .

[Obadiah]

Femlob wrote...
...
The problem isn't that there are people who complain about ME2; the problem is that these same people generally treat ME1 as if it's a game created by God Himself and delivered to earth by Jesus Christ; a flawless product by The Father, The Son and The Holy BioWare.
...

Who said anything like that?

[UKStory135]

Femlob wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Didn't you know, Nightwriter: the definition of a "troll" on these forums is "anybody who complains about ME2 in any way"

This one's from a few pages back, but I still want to respond to it.

The problem isn't that there are people who complain about ME2; the problem is that these same people generally treat ME1 as if it's a game created by God Himself and delivered to earth by Jesus Christ; a flawless product by The Father, The Son and The Holy BioWare.

I'll be the first to admit that ME2 has its fair share of flaws, but it's incredibly annoying to have these flaws pointed out to you by someone who refuses to acknowledge that ME1 is just as flawed - if not more so.

Just sayin'.

 +1  I feel like once ME3 is out, many of the story-line problems that many RPGers had will be resolved.  I think that ME2 was the first half of a masterpiece and ME3 will be the second half.  I don't miss the Menus and Makos at all.

[Nightwriter]

Femlob wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Didn't you know, Nightwriter: the definition of a "troll" on these forums is "anybody who complains about ME2 in any way"

This one's from a few pages back, but I still want to respond to it.

The problem isn't that there are people who complain about ME2; the problem is that these same people generally treat ME1 as if it's a game created by God Himself and delivered to earth by Jesus Christ; a flawless product by The Father, The Son and The Holy BioWare.

I'll be the first to admit that ME2 has its fair share of flaws, but it's incredibly annoying to have these flaws pointed out to you by someone who refuses to acknowledge that ME1 is just as flawed - if not more so.

Just sayin'.

This keeps getting repeated, but I honestly don't know where the impression comes from. I feel it's a bit of a generalization. All of my pals on the forum who were somewhat disappointed with ME2 have always admitted ME1's flaws.

[Ahglock]

Obadiah wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
...
While I think the Mako sucked in a lot of ways, I never got it stuck.  Also in a recent play through I decided to ignore mineral searching etc. on the map and just drove to main points of interest it actually drove fairly well in most cases and was pretty cool.  Yeah sure a couple of the maps were pure mountain hell, but most seemed to have valleys that got you to your destination if you wanted it quick and easy.  It sucks when you try to do the 100% map covered thing though, or take the mountain climbing path to get behind the merc enclave. 
...

I can see why lots of people didn't like driving them, since a lot of the space was featureless and empty, or too rocky to be navigable. I would recommend using the zoom button on the XBox while driving in those situations, since it gives you a first person view from the Mako, and makes navigating tricky areas a little easier. No more having the camera view blocked by the underside of the Mako.

I liked the Mako missions because you could hop out of your vehicle a mile away from your target and snipe at enemies, or be sniped by them. You could also drive right up to them, run them over (always fun), then hop out with shotguns and start blasting.

Mako Missions > Planet Scanning

I agree with that.  While it was a **** to drive for me in many cases, it did add something to the game in that it allowed a wider range of ways to handle missions.  ME1 may have been more visually similar with all the same buildings and box layouts etc.  ME2 was more strategically similar in that everything was always the same linear path, the only real choices were in what level of aggressiveness did you tackle the mission.  Different people will find different things important. The visual similarities in ME1 very well could be such a big immersion breaker for some that it was worse than the strategic similarities of ME2.

[Whatever42]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Well, in that i suggest to you that you look more at the story behind the Side Mission and less to the mission it self.

And I already have.

Mass Effect's plot> Mass Effect 2's plot.

Is that what you wanted? I give it to you freely. And yet, despite this, Mass Effect still offers what I consider one of the weakest handling of side quests in any Bioware game for a multitude of reasons, especially in comparison to ME2's loyatly missions or Kotor's/Jade Empire's side quests.

MEh, personally, I thought ME2's loyalty missions to be nothing more than a on-rail shooter mission with a couple of dialogue lines here and there - there were exceptions of course, but they were still tied to a linear experience where you were dragged along. I prefer much more the ME handling of side quests where you weren't teleported somewhere, but you had to find your way where you wanted to go and do what you wanted to do, without necessarily resorting to 15 minutes of shooting your way through with the same old, tired, repetitive and predictable encounters. Because playing the game on insanity, you ought to realize how EVERY mission, EVERY encounter are made the exact same way. ME2's shooting may be better than ME1's, but it's infinitely more boring, so I'd rather go back to ME1's shooting if that means less repetition. And in less quantity. There was so much shooting in ME2, you were beginning to wonder if you were playing a shooter with interactive elements rather than an RPG/shooter hybrid.

I'm sorry but talking about rails, you all have gone clearly off them. In ME1 I ran from cookie-cutter structure to cookie-cutter structure across bland, generic terrain to blow the hell out of everything. Sometimes there was the odd line of dialogue at the end but it was very minor at best. ME1 had by-far the most pointless, awful quests I have ever played in a Bioware game. It was actually pretty shameful how awful they were.

Other than the more interest main quest story elements in ME1, ME2 absolutely blew it out of the water every step of the way.

Oddly, almost every review on the planet has this view, with half of them giving ME2 their GOTY and almost all the rest giving it RPG of the year. Yes, I know, being in the majority doesn't make you right and this is all subjective after all but you might want to consider if your personal biases is coloring your incredibly one-side and ridiculously subjective analysis.

[Nightwriter]

I don't think the game has been "dumbed down". I think the game's premise felt very rushed. I'm not saying ME1 had an award-winning story. I'm saying it followed an action --> reaction process, whereas in ME2, I felt like I was just being told to do everything.

[TowranPeter]

You mean like planting a bug in C-Sec after a 10 word dialogue?
Scanning Keepers?
Scanning planets/minerals for gasses/metals/symbols/medallions/data discs/insignias?
Following a signal around the Citadel?
Talking to a fan?
Picking up a package for a Hanar seller?

Mass Effect 2 sure did have sucky side-quests, oh wait, that was Mass Effect 1.

I do agree that the N7 Missions were largely a step back from the far better UNC side-quests in Mass Effect 1 but if you think Mass Effect 1 didn't also have any pointless, meaningless missions in it as well then you are deluded.

Wow, no you didn't. You just pissed me off.  I can't believe how ignorant you are.  Dude, let me help you. Seriously.

Scanning the keepers
- This shows that scientists are curious and they need a REASON for why things they are.  To accept the keepers as just there and not knowing why is foolish.  This quest tests your judgement.  

Scanning Planets for Minerals/Metals/Symbols
- Not only did I feel the vastness of barren planets, but those little texts of discovery usually had comical references and thought provoking content (Eletania). 

Following signal around citadel
- You're first experience with an AI in Mass Effect.  This reminds me of some old scifi movies. This quest was largely inspired by that one movie, but I can't remember it right now.  I LOVED this quest.  Then you do a little mini-game as a challenge to best a computer opponent.   His dialogue and voice were amazing. It shows you to what extent an AI will go to to be free and earn its freedom. If you don't understand this, then you're not very smart or you're young and inexperienced.

Talking to a fan
- This gives you a glimpse of what it is to be a role model and how your actions influence others.  This fan was so star struck by you that it was interfering with his life. I don't want to give spoilers but this immersion at its best.  Having survived on Akuze then having fans and popularity? It all adds to the vastness, but you wouldn't know anything about that.

Picking up a package for a Hanar seller
- Noveria was single handedly one of the best and most complicated quests I've ever done and every sub plot was important and tied into the main objectives.   Figuring it all out and understanding how it all weaved together was soo much fun and extremely satisfying.  I had no idea I was going to get attacked. 


Mass Effect 2 sub quests
- They don't tie into the storyline at all, so far they have been totally separate with very little meaning.  Every quest that I talked about above ties into the games main story.

Modifié par TowranPeter, 16 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[that_one_guy02]

While I do thoroughly love the Following the Signal and Talking to a Fan sidequests. I fail to see how they tie into the main story. I agree that they add to the world and how you handle them adds to your character, but they really have nothing to do with the Geth or stopping Saren.