6813 réponses à ce sujet

[tenshi_no_hone]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

tenshi_no_hone wrote...
But part of the joy of choosing between playable sexes is that lots of things are different! Why should all romanceable characters be bi? It just takes some variety out of the characters that they write just for that. I've got nothing against having bi characters, I just appreciate having some heterosexual specific and maybe homosexual specific (long time since Juhani!) characters too. It's more interesting

Because a lot of gay players or people who prefer to play s/s get left out quite a lot. While there are more options available for bisexual & straight players, gay players almost certainly only get ONE option. An option that certainly does not encompass what they really want. There were SO many gay buddies of mine who felt defeated because they couldn't romance Alistair. And who could blame them? I certainly didn't like Zevran. A LOT of people didn't. Alistair was a dreamy prince. The gays got shafted in that department.

Regardless, RPG is still an RPG. In my game, Leliana is 100% lesbian with some experience with men because that was her job. Someone else might have considered her very bisexual, I personally did not. Because it was my game and that was how I perceived the RP experience.

I guess we just llok at RP experiences differently - I see them as less player defined than you do.

Well - let's see what the eventual answer turns out to be! I won't begrudge it if they're all bi, just wanted to talk about characterisation I guess... I agree it's harsh that gay players haven't gotten as many choices of interesting romanceable characters, but I think more romance options with gender-exclusive paths is a better solution in a new game - it's just clearly not going to happen in DA2 either way

[HolyJellyfish]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...


Only one person should stop the player from entering into a relationship with a companion or any NPC - and that's the NPC themselves! If they are written as straight or gay as part of the person the writing team has crafted, then they should be able to act accordingly. I just think it adds to the realism and immersion factor!

The problem is that while your intentions are good, a lot of homophobic and upsetting people will use that same argument  as well in order to control the experience to their liking at the expense of others feelings. Many, many people are totally against an M/M option in ME3 specifically for the reasons you've listed, and it hurts a lot of people.

While the writers can create as they will, and listen to input of fans through a filtering device, I still believe full heartedly that bi optional for all is a good direction to go, to alter the NPCs orientation or characteristics to your RP experience (Which happens anyway, since your PC directly influences their major plot decisions throughout every game).

It customizes the world to fit the needs of the player without going craaaaaaazzzyyyy.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 19 février 2011 - 02:02 .

[tenshi_no_hone]

makenzieshepard wrote...

There are probably one or two people on the boards who actually believe that characters should be whatever sexuality their story indicates but since I never, ever see them coming into a thread and starting arguing that someone should be exclusively gay...yeah not buying it.  Which means it's just a cover for their bigotry.  If I'm wrong .0000001% of the time then so be it I'll surivive .

Sorry, but that's exactly what I've been saying!

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

There are probably one or two people on the boards who actually believe that characters should be whatever sexuality their story indicates but since I never, ever see them coming into a thread and starting arguing that someone should be exclusively gay...yeah not buying it.  Which means it's just a cover for their bigotry.  If I'm wrong .0000001% of the time then so be it I'll surivive .

This. 

Edit: Though I don't agree about the bigotry. To me its more of a privilage thing. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 février 2011 - 02:05 .

[Sylvianus]

I Can just imagine everyone jumping up and going "It Makes No Sense!" "Not Everyone Is Bi!" "I Do not Want To Be OPTIONALLY hit it by a girl!" "Whyyyyyyyy?!"

And you think they would be wrong to say that ? The fanservice in this excites you can be, but it does prevents it does recognize the legitimacy of these questions ?

We have already informed the players that their game, their decisions, it mattered not with the return of Anders. Bioware has not already met the rp.

Then they could put Anders, bi, when he was disgusted with homosexual allusion, already a total disregard for the work they have done before. A rp was done, another rp defeats.

And now all bi, at the expense of immersion of the game ? It would make a lot of decisions to swallow anti-rp anyway.

If this continues, Bioware will only "good games"

[HolyJellyfish]

MuseMajora wrote...
But isn't that a very similiar argument as to why there aren't a whole lot of other races/ethnicity's in Dragon Age's setting? The majority of the characters are white because it's based off of middle aged Europe, and like in real life, the majority of people in the world prefer the opposite sex. 

You can only go so far when creating a fictional world.

Ah. This isn't the first time someone has compared sexuality in the game to racism. This usually comes up.

It doesn't compare. Sexuality is not the same as Race. These are two different subjects entirely. You are able to create your character in whatever form, shape, color you wish. While a majority of the races seem white, DA2 is definitely changing gears with the introduction of Isabela and Fenris, not to mention you can craft your family to have the same skin + hair color as you. And we have no idea what Kirkwall's residents look like just yet.

[HolyJellyfish]

Sylvianus wrote...


Then they could put Anders, bi, when he was disgusted with homosexual allusion, already a total disregard for the work they have done before. A rp was done, another rp defeats.

If you are talking about the Big Sword Templar Man gross out joke Oghren made, I hardly believe that is an allusion to Anders heterosexuality.

I don't think anyone would be pleased with that joke, gay or not.

[mesmerizedish]

MuseMajora wrote...

But isn't that a very similiar argument as to why there aren't a whole lot of other races/ethnicity's in Dragon Age's setting? The majority of the characters are white because it's based off of middle aged Europe, and like in real life, the majority of people in the world prefer the opposite sex. 

You can only go so far when creating a fictional world.

But it's not about realism, it's about gameplay. That your party would even be thrown together is already incredibly contrived. Gender is supposed to have no impact on gameplay. There's no stat difference, no class restrictions, no barriers of any kind... except for romances. These aren't little one-night affairs, like Phaere in Ust'Natha. These are big plots, with lots of conversations and rewarding story. But you're cutting out some players from all of that, purely based on the gender of their character.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 19 février 2011 - 02:11 .

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

There are probably one or two people on the boards who actually believe that characters should be whatever sexuality their story indicates but since I never, ever see them coming into a thread and starting arguing that someone should be exclusively gay...yeah not buying it.  Which means it's just a cover for their bigotry.  If I'm wrong .0000001% of the time then so be it I'll surivive .

This. 

Edit: Though I don't agree about the bigotry. To me its more of a privilage thing. 

Prejudice or privilege would have been a better word but since I've been quoted a couple of times now I won't change it.

Actually it's still bigotry it just usually stems from privilege.  Usually of the non-hateful variety you know the type "I like gay people, I have a gay friend...only one...".   Kinda like my upbringing made me bigoted against non-christian, gay and non-whites. Luckily I grew out of that stupidity!

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 19 février 2011 - 02:10 .

[mesmerizedish]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


Then they could put Anders, bi, when he was disgusted with homosexual allusion, already a total disregard for the work they have done before. A rp was done, another rp defeats.

If you are talking about the Big Sword Templar Man gross out joke Oghren made, I hardly believe that is an allusion to Anders heterosexuality.

I don't think anyone would be pleased with that joke, gay or not.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "Ew" mostly had to do with Anders not wanting a sword up his bum I stay away from swords as a general rule, but even if I knew my way around a blade, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with the insinuation.

[tenshi_no_hone]

Btw - the other reason I'm not a huge fan of Bioware bisexual LIs is that a large percentage of the dialogue is exactly the same, regardless of gender. It's like how femShep walks and moves like a man, it just feels like the devs haven't paid enough attention to the important differences between men and women; in something as simple as walking or complex as a relationship

[Ryzaki]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


Then they could put Anders, bi, when he was disgusted with homosexual allusion, already a total disregard for the work they have done before. A rp was done, another rp defeats.

If you are talking about the Big Sword Templar Man gross out joke Oghren made, I hardly believe that is an allusion to Anders heterosexuality.

I don't think anyone would be pleased with that joke, gay or not.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that "Ew" mostly had to do with Anders not wanting a sword up his bum I stay away from swords as a general rule, but even if I knew my way around a blade, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with the insinuation.

I thought that ew was because it was rape. That usually isn't an appealing prospect. 

[HolyJellyfish]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

Btw - the other reason I'm not a huge fan of Bioware bisexual LIs is that a large percentage of the dialogue is exactly the same, regardless of gender. It's like how femShep walks and moves like a man, it just feels like the devs haven't paid enough attention to the important differences between men and women; in something as simple as walking or complex as a relationship

I've heard this argument as well, but when you are only doing one playthrough, people aren't going to notice. And a majority of people buying the game typically only do one play through.

[mesmerizedish]

Ryzaki wrote...

I thought that ew was because it was rape. That usually isn't an appealing prospect. 

Well, yeah, that's what I meant by "not wanting a sword up his bum." If it were consensual, I wouldn't use a sword as a metaphor

[tenshi_no_hone]

Sorry - it just grated on me with some of the stuff Leli said in the M/F romance!

EDIT: It's really sad that most players only do one playthrough - they miss out on the best things about Bioware games!

Modifié par tenshi_no_hone, 19 février 2011 - 02:17 .

[Ryzaki]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

Sorry - it just grated on me with some of the stuff Leli said in the M/F romance!

Wait. Did you use ZDF? Supposedly alot of Leliana's dialogue is severely bugged. She says things to females that she's not supposed to and vice versa. 

And are you playing on PC (which frankly is the more important question. Can't use the mod without PC). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 février 2011 - 02:17 .

[tenshi_no_hone]

Really? That might explain a lot! I never really liked Zevran, so I never looked at ZDF - worth it then I take it? (Definitely play DA:O on PC!)

[Ryzaki]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

Really? That might explain a lot! I never really liked Zevran, so I never looked at ZDF - worth it then I take it? (Definitely play DA:O on PC!)

Yes. I can't stand Zev and I use it. ejoslin is a goddess. 

Do not tell her I said that. 

Using ZDF and Morri's fix patch clears up a lot of dialogue headaches. 

Here are Leli's fixes

Leliana:
-Leliana's "Your Zevran" conversation no longer loops.
-Leliana's declaration of love is different if she's hardened.
-Leliana now gives the proper response if hardened when asked what her future plans are.
-Leliana will respond appropriately the warden is marrying Alistair/Anora. If she is the love interest and hardened, the proper dialog will trigger. If she is not involved in the warden, she will no longer break up with them.
-Leliana will no longer confront a male warden who had agreed to marry Anora before the landsmeet but does not end up engaged to her.
-There are now a couple of appropriate responses for a gay/bisexual male warden when Leliana confronts him at "Care" if he's slept with Zevran.
-When discussing the afterlife, a choice that was only supposed to be visible to humans now actually appears for humans but no one else.
-Leliana will now always declare her feelings and proposition the warden after she falls in love.
-During the post-Marjolaine conversation, males now get the lines that were intended for males and females get the lines that were intended for females.
-Female wardens are now far less likely to be ninja-romanced by Leliana in the post-Marjolaine conversation.
-Male wardens who do not have the romance cut off should now have one more chance to start the romance post-Marjolaine.
-If the warden breaks up with Leliana in the conversation she has at "adore," the breakup will work.
-Leliana will now give her personal quest at high approval ratings (non-DT version only as DT had already fixed this).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 février 2011 - 02:25 .

[tenshi_no_hone]

Your secret is safe! And thanks - that mod will definitely feature in my next playthrough!

[Dendens]

There are people who want exclusively heterosexual romances.

There are people who want everyone to be bisexual.

There are people who want exclusively homosexual romances.



Nobody wins.

Everyone's angry.

Sucks to be bioware.



Seriously though, as an out and proud lesbian, I support hetero/******/bi romances if it fits in with their character. I like that some characters won't be at my beckoning call because I demand it. They're their own characters

[SirGladiator]

I think a lot of folks are missing the obvious, that a character doesn't have to be bisexual to be an LI for both Hawkes. Its an easy mistake to make, certainly Leliana, Liara, and Kelly were all openly bisexual, but Silk Fox was as straight as anybody, and her romance with the female PC was among the very best of all time. Just because a character starts out straight doesn't prevent them from being a great LI for either Hawke, I'd actually prefer that Merrill start out that way, since we alrady know that Isabella is bisexual. It'd make the romance that much more cool and interesting, just like it did with Silk Fox. Of course if Merrill starts out as bisexual also I'll be very much fine with that as well . But if she is somebody who never really thought of being with a woman before meeting Lady Hawke, that would be great also.

[Sylvianus]

There are people who want exclusively heterosexual romances.

There are people who want everyone to be bisexual.

There are people who want exclusively homosexual romances.



Nobody wins.

Everyone's angry.

Sucks to be bioware.


Seriously though, as an out and proud lesbian, I support hetero/******/bi romances if it fits in with their character. I like that some characters won't be at my beckoning call because I demand it. They're their own characters

This.

-10 for bioware. +10 for dendens.

I'm a big fan, but I never thought they would show so much disrespect for the rp. I always thought that Dragon Age was more than Mass Effect in this area.

Bioware should have taken the courageous decision to make gay, bi, hetero, rather than making simple artificial machines, the primary pure fanservice to make life easier. In short, I disagree, it says, no need to add more.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 19 février 2011 - 02:32 .

[Dendens]

SirGladiator wrote...

I think a lot of folks are missing the obvious, that a character doesn't have to be bisexual to be an LI for both Hawkes. Its an easy mistake to make, certainly Leliana, Liara, and Kelly were all openly bisexual, but Silk Fox was as straight as anybody, and her romance with the female PC was among the very best of all time. Just because a character starts out straight doesn't prevent them from being a great LI for either Hawke, I'd actually prefer that Merrill start out that way, since we alrady know that Isabella is bisexual. It'd make the romance that much more cool and interesting, just like it did with Silk Fox. Of course if Merrill starts out as bisexual also I'll be very much fine with that as well . But if she is somebody who never really thought of being with a woman before meeting Lady Hawke, that would be great also.

As much as I would have loved to convince lil ol' Alastair to come to my tent as a male (or a similar sky type romance), I do think there should be limitations. There should be characters that simply say NO. I don't think anyone is opposed to the idea that there should be romances added for the three main sexual preferences*

*Well there are. But we'll ignore those types <_<

[schalafi]

It's strange that everyone seems so worried about sexuality in this game... I don't even care about that because Bioware always gives choices. What is bothering me is that both female romance options, Fenrus and Anders, have something weirdly wrong with them. This time it's not a dead wife, or child, it's something supernatural. I know this is fantasy, and I have no problem with that, but it would be nice if just once there could be a reasonably "normal" male for the female LI. I have visions of my LI, whether it's Anders or Fenrus, suddenly undergoing their transformations and taking off my head!

[tenshi_no_hone]

^Exactly!

EDIT: Whoops, not in quick enough - that was for the post above! (Dendens')

Modifié par tenshi_no_hone, 19 février 2011 - 02:35 .