6813 réponses à ce sujet

[Gentle Leviathan]

draken-heart wrote...

 i expect isabela's romance to be much like morrigan's, as soon as she falls in love with hawke, she'll want to end it.

I'm not so sure, Merrill could very easily be like that to, being Dalish and all, she may not like the thought of being with a human.

[Athro]

Addai67 wrote...
It's weak characterization.  Real people aren't zero state.  They either can be attracted to both genders or they can't.

That's bollocks. Why? Because this isn't a novel where there is only one story being told.

Why can't they write Merrill as gay if you pick the gay storyline and straight if you pick the straight storyline? How is Merril's characterisation going to be any less in one than the other? You make the fundamental error in thinking that the character has to be only one or the other and that is that.

But when I'm writing a novel, any of my characters could potentially be gay until I write the story. The benefit of a computer game is that I'm not writing one story, I'm writing several different stories that are all similar. So in some of those stories Merrill is gay, in some she's straight.

If being bi is a central point of Isabella's characterisation, then all stories with Isabella will have her as bi. But if Merrill's sexuality just isn't important to her characterisation - then I'll write a gay version and a straight version. It isn't going to matter if it's a man or woman she loves - just that she falls in love and that has an impact on her story and her decisions as a person.

Saying that writing it so that she could be gay in one story and straight in another is weak characterisation shows a lack of understanding the scope that writing for computer games allow. it also shows a bit of misunderstanding about sexuality. Not all gay people are so defined by their sexuality that you know they are gay. Until they tell you, it can go either way. The same happens in a computer game.

As someone else pointed out - it's like schrodinger's cat - until you ask ,you don't know if Merrill is gay or straight. Until you ask, it could go either way. Her sexuality isn't as defining of who she is as a person because she focuses more on other things - spirituality? Her people? Her other issues? Sexuality is not so defining that it necessarily dramatically changes a character that much.

Also, when I said zero-sum, i was not talking about characterisation, I was talking about the character from a game management perspective. The game and story shapes itself around your PC and the decisions you make.

You make the fundamental error of thinking that all writers lock sexuality of their characters in when making the characterisation. Yet Alistair was written to be straight and yet a lot of people felt he could have been gay and it wouldn't have changed any of his dialogue or personality

Edit: To put it another way, each person's playthrough of DA2 is like an alternate reality. In some characters will be straight and in some they will be gay. When Bioware plans the characters, they can account for these changes. it doesn't make the character zero-sum in real life - it just means that until the matter has to be decided, it doesn't matter. When it needs to be decided, the game takes it's cue from the player as to which "reality" they are in - the Merrill  is gay one or the Merrill is straight one.

C.

Modifié par Athro, 03 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[Athro]

MasterScribe wrote...

I fully support LGBT equality in any medium (video gaming included); that's what happens when your girlfriend (now ex) bombards you with all her gay, lesbian,and bi friends (you adapt and eventually accept that everybody is different). Hopefully, DA3 will have 6 romances (2 straight, 2 bi, and 2 gay/lesbian). I really want one more chance at a hetero-exclusive romance with a female companion before I die. Please BioWare just give me one! For now, I shall romance our straight-bi-lesbian elf-mage Merrill  with my male Hawke. Can't wait for March 8th.

I have to admit, I would prefer the 6 option process too. What I want is choice for gay/bi/lesbian players. Doesn't have to be every character just to have a choice. Sure, there are always going to be players who wanted the straight only character to be their gay romance - but as we see here, there are also players who steadfastly believe that a character should have a fixed sexuality otherwise it spoils their immersion in the game.

Your suggestion strikes me as the best method. Even a 1 straight, 1 bi, 1 gay per gender - because six LIs surely demands a lot of resources to be done properly.

[Poquimo]

I wonder if Fenris's disliking of being touched will come into play in the romance plot for him. Someone mentioned that once somewhere that he is uncomfortable with it and I don't blame him considering what he has been through. I have a funny feeling he might be one of the difficult ones to romance, though both of the guys seem to have some pretty heavy baggage. All the more to sink our teeth into though plot wise though I hope!

And also I'm kinda hoping Anders "I am on a mission to stop the chantry!" becomes something he is conflicted with if a romance with Hawke starts. Like if its a friendship path he asks her to help him if she loves him or if its a rival path he has to choose between seeking vengeance or staying with Hawke. I know that will probably already be an issue even without a romance, but I am hoping the romance gets worked in if it exists in gameplay.

Speaking of gameplay, I'm super curious whether Merrill has some central thing going on with the plot considering Flemeth is the one who sends you to her Dalish camp in the first place I think...don't quote me though and how that will effect people romancing her.

Isabela seems to have perhaps the most straight forward romance I can see, but maybe there will be some sort of twist thrown into her background too. Like that guy who is after her...I think Isabela was married at some point too? They mentioned it in DA:O so that could come back up.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the romantic plotlines? I'm so horribly curious >.<

Modifié par SpottySpec, 03 mars 2011 - 03:00 .

[SirGladiator]

I think the simple logic, which they have embraced here in DA2, is that there is no reason to define the LIs for the player. Obviously Isabella is bi, she makes that pretty clear, but for all we know she may be the only one like that in the game, and that would make a lot of sense. If you want to make Merrill straight, romance her with male Hawke and don't with Lady Hawke. If you want Merrill to be a lesbian, do the reverse, if you want her to be bi, romance her with both, etc. It really should be entirely up to the player.

You can go back a long way and see this would've made perfect sense. In KOTOR, nothing says Bastilla is 'straight' you just can't romance her with a female PC (although you get the same ending as a male who romanced Bastilla, if you go the Dark Side route, so I tended to do that). Certainly Ashley from ME's romance is just as good, if not better, as FemShep (did that one thanks to a mod), and obviously Morrigan's romance would be just as good regardless of whether the Warden is male or female (mod made that one possible too), in all these cases (and obviously more that I could mention) it would've been much better to have the option, do it if you like it, if you don't you don't have to. If its entirely up to the player, then everybody's going to end up happy, because theyr're naturally going to play it their own preferred way when given the chance, and that means everybody's a winner!

[EscherEnigma]

MasterScribe wrote...

I really want one more chance at a hetero-exclusive romance with a female companion before I die. Please BioWare just give me one! For now, I shall romance our straight-bi-lesbian elf-mage Merrill  with my male Hawke. Can't wait for March 8th.

Go back and play Baldur's Gate II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect... you know, just about any Bioware game since they started putting romances into the games.

[pallascedar]

Addai67 wrote...
It's weak characterization.  Real people aren't zero state.  They either can be attracted to both genders or they can't.

Boy, you don't know much about real people do you?

Nevermind, I misunderstood the context of your post. Still, I think it's a general theme in this thread that people don't understand the general fluid nature of sexuality, especially in our real world.

Modifié par pallascedar, 03 mars 2011 - 03:31 .

[pallascedar]

MasterScribe wrote...

EscherEnigma wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

I really want one more chance at a hetero-exclusive romance with a female companion before I die. Please BioWare just give me one! For now, I shall romance our straight-bi-lesbian elf-mage Merrill  with my male Hawke. Can't wait for March 8th.

Go back and play Baldur's Gate II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect... you know, just about any Bioware game since they started putting romances into the games.

All great games, but.....I prefer first person view and more recent graphics, so BGII is out. I can't find any PC copies of Jade Empire or Mass Effect in my area; I don't buy online either. I'm looking forward, not back. I hope Dragon Age 3 will allow me the chance to have a hetero-exclusive romance with a female companion.

Why though?

The only reason I can think of a person wanting a heterosexual (or homosexual) partner over a bisexual partner either in a game or in real life is biphobia, which shouldn't be catered to.

[falconlord5]

MasterScribe wrote...

EscherEnigma wrote...

MasterScribe wrote...

I really want one more chance at a hetero-exclusive romance with a female companion before I die. Please BioWare just give me one! For now, I shall romance our straight-bi-lesbian elf-mage Merrill  with my male Hawke. Can't wait for March 8th.

Go back and play Baldur's Gate II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect... you know, just about any Bioware game since they started putting romances into the games.

All great games, but.....I prefer first person view and more recent graphics, so BGII is out. I can't find any PC copies of Jade Empire or Mass Effect in my area; I don't buy online either. I have KOTOR and ME2, but I'm tired of playing those two. DAO is wearing thin too. Regardless, I can't wait for DA2.

I dunno, the major amounts of nerdrage/excitement that Bi romances are conjuring up make them far too attractive to let go.

[EscherEnigma]

... so, in your quest to get this one thing you want before you die, you're not willing to order online or play an older game.

Forgive me if my sympathy for your plight is... lacking. But hey, if you're not willing to order online or play an older game, is Mass Effect II recent enough to fit your strangely restrictive bill? It's got three of what you want.

[falconlord5]

MasterScribe wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...


I dunno, the major amounts of nerdrage/excitement that Bi romances are conjuring up make them far too attractive to let go.

I'm saying it would be nice to have the opportunity again someday. There's something just as special about heterosexual individuals as there is about bisexual individuals.

Oh, I agree. But Bi Romances have generated more attention than strictly straight romances, and thus more drama.

This makes them very difficult to pass up, from both a business and writing perspective.

Modifié par falconlord5, 03 mars 2011 - 03:49 .

[EscherEnigma]

If me sarcastically failing to be sympathetic is an "attack", I think it best I don't answer your presumptive question.

[lilliful]

This thread has become ridiculous -- somehow we've arrived at the point where bisexuality, which is extremely under-represented in all forms of entertainment (more commonly you see those who are completely gay) is this market fad that the average consumer is really into, and is threatening the visibility and viability of the utterly dominating norm -- heterosexuality. Never mind that if you are looking for a straight romance, you need only play every other game in the universe except this one, which I know is terribly disappointing. As far as I know this would be the only game with all bisexual love interests, but I understand it would be setting such a very troubling precedent. Oh, doth the marginalization never cease for you downtrodden heterosexuals? 'Tis cruel, surely.

[lilliful]

MasterScribe wrote...

I would just like to stay in the Dragon Age universe and still be able to romance a white female again (if it doesn't happen, i'll get over it). I'm all for blacks and asians having their own romances (which you'd know if you had read my post saying that I fully support racial equality in any medium). I'm not making this out to be a white sympathy thread, i'm just expressing my thoughts on future romances. Calm down, I am not your enemy and you are not my enemy.

Does that help you understand where I'm coming from, at all? Your "yay straight people" is pretty analogous to "yay white people!" I'm not angry, by the way, just massively facepalming. This long ago entered the realm of lulz for me.

[mesmerizedish]

MasterScribe wrote...

Why did you change the post? My last girlfriend was black...

Hey, mine too

Anyway, yeah. "Straight pride" (which I know is not exactly what you're saying, but it's similar enough to work) is like saying "white pride." Without passing judgment on whether it's right or wrong, to say "I want an exclusively straight companion that I don't have to share with gay people" is pretty much the same as saying "I want a white companion that I don't have to share with black people."