6813 réponses à ce sujet

[Batorific]

lilliful wrote...

Batorific wrote...

That's still 8 different experiences (2 for each LI) without having to split between gender.

AND, if they responded differently to each gender while being romanced, that's 16 different experiences! You heard it here, folks. Bisexuality increases replayability.

haha exactly.  Though it may be more on the player's perception of the relationship rather than major dialogue differences. (As much faith as i have in Bioware i doubt the gender-specific dialogue will be much at all.)  I was going off a purely "ignoring gender" angle.

[Addai]

lilliful wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's not an "error."  It's an opinion, and a preference for deep characterization as opposed to NPCs who are blank slates waiting for the player to create them (as opposed to waiting for us to discover them).  For me, rich characters are what makes these games.

When I'm dating a man, I'm straight. When I'm dating a woman, I'm gay. I can't have a "bisexual relationship" because you can't be both genders at the same time. At one time, I was completely heterosexual and experienced no attraction to women. Now that I do experience attraction to them, it has changed nothing about who I am as a person -- what jokes I laugh at, my hopes and dreams, the things that scare me, and the things I want to accomplish in life. I'd like to think I'm a rich character :3

I would rather not get into the personal, but I would say that the fact that you've dated both men and women shows that in fact your inclinations have shaped your life a great deal.  As has the fact, for me, that I've never been attracted to a woman, married a man, and can't fathom preferring a woman to men.  While you may not consider it important, that too is an opinion.  Sexuality is only one aspect, but for most people a very important and yes, defining, one.

So when Zevran says he prefers women, that's the sort of detail that adds richness to his character, the same way that details like his fondness for leather or that he notices jewels and compares things to them or that he misses Antivan food and on and on, make him three-dimensional and real.  The more of that picture that is left fuzzy and subjective, the less clear the character is, and for me the less compelling.

And the browbeating of posters who are simply expressing a desire to encounter an LI that shares their tastes, with whom they can most comfortably relate?  So ironic.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[lilliful]

Addai67 wrote...

I would rather not get into the personal, but I would say that the fact that you've dated both men and women shows that in fact your inclinations have shaped your life a great deal.  As has the fact, for me, that I've never been attracted to a woman, married a man, and can't fathom preferring a woman to men.  While you may not consider it important, that too is an opinion.  Sexuality is only one aspect, but for most people a very important and yes, defining, one.

So when Zevran says he prefers women, that's the sort of detail that adds richness to his character, the same way that details like his fondness for leather or that he notices jewels and compares things to them or that he misses Antivan food and on and on, make him three-dimensional and real.  The more of that picture that is left fuzzy and subjective, the less clear the character is, and for me the less compelling.

And the browbeating of posters who are simply expressing a desire to encounter an LI that shares their tastes, with whom they can most comfortably relate?  So ironic.

I guess for you, your straightness really defines you. For me, it doesn't play a large role in my identity. I don't note my fondness for both genders and compare them to one another, or say that I miss things about dating one or the other, and so on, so I can't say that it'd make up any part of the banter with me, were I a companion character. I think it's a very arguable position that to some people, their sexuality is a large part of who they are, and for others, maybe a very little part. I think it's completely possible and realistic for BioWare to go the latter route, is all.

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

So if they did it, I imagine it is in a subjective fashion where they're gay in that game and straight in that game over there.  My theory is that it will be put down to Varric telling the story as he likes it and no one really knows the truth.

I really hope that's the furthest they stretch the storytelling shenanigans that are possible with an unreliable narrator.  They could get a lot worse than that.

Certainly, the fact story is being narrated by Varric could easily explain why all female LI are bi, if nothing else.

[Athro]

Addai67 wrote...

Ineffable Igor wrote...
This is pretty much the only argument I've seen for making the LI's romancable to all, regardless of gender, that I don't completely disagree with.  I still don't much care for the idea (I am more inclined to agree with Addai, in real life sexuality tends to be a pretty fixed thing that affects your development as an individual, thus marginalizing its effects bugs me, however I have a preference for the strictly realistic that I know many don't share, so don't mind me), but I would be less upset if this were the approach BioWare took in the game, as opposed to the "They're all bisexual!  What a coincidence!" approach.     

In his post on the matter, Gaider said that the "they're all openly bi" approach was his least favorite.  So if they did it, I imagine it is in a subjective fashion where they're gay in that game and straight in that game over there.  My theory is that it will be put down to Varric telling the story as he likes it and no one really knows the truth.

I really hope that's the furthest they stretch the storytelling shenanigans that are possible with an unreliable narrator.  They could get a lot worse than that.

But of course, this is what I've been saying all along. I'm not in favour of the "all bi" route - but I am in favour of all romanceable characters being available to all PCs.

The difference here is that you're not understanding what I've been saying about how this can be done without all the characters being bi. Further to this, I have argued that it can be done while still keeping strong characterisation.

It seems to me that there is still this strange notion that if, using the example, Merrill is gay in one story and straight in another - she must be bi.

Or that by giving the ability to have the characters be available to all PCs makes them all bi.

I think you have misread my statements as either being "all bi" or "no character."

But I explicitly pointed out the difference between in game story and how the game's meta elements are working.

So, in the story when you hit on Merill as femHawke, the game's coding takes the gay storyline route and she not only becomes gay she has historically always been gay in that storyline. The same goes for the straight storyline.

The thing is to distinguish a difference between the character in the story and the character as a piece of code in the game software.

[EscherEnigma]

Unless, of course, the conclusion of the game takes places *after* Varric finishes telling his story. I'm not sure if it's been confirmed or not whether the game when Varric "catches up" to the present, but it wouldn't be an unusual storytelling trick to have the majority of the story be playing "catch up" and then the epic conclusion be "real time", so to speak.

[reynomatt]

five days!!!

[RVonE]

reynomatt wrote...

five days!!!

EIGHT DAYS!!!

[koshiee]

so are they all bi or not?

[catabuca]

Selidor wrote...

I'm going to regret getting into this, but...

Yes, that is exactly what we want.

You know what's also unrealistic? For somebody who is gay to have to settle for the one other gay person around, regardless of whether they're attractive, or just go with celibacy. In real life there are plenty of 'options' regardless of your sexuality. I don't expect Bioware to be able to replicate that degree of choice in game, but providing more than one option is actually more realistic for me.

In real life flirting with someone enough won't guarantee they go to bed with you, but people in real life aren't designated as your love interests, and in any case the same is true of straight relationships. Isabela isn't going to turn down a male Hawke because she's not physically attracted to him - she's a romance-able character and if you pick the right options in the game she will go to bed with you. This has no relation to sexuality, it's how game romances work for everyone.

Also, being queer myself I tend to find that I also have a lot of queer people in my social circles, even a majority. So if I'm playing Hawke as gay or bi, it's also realistic to me to have multiple friends who are gay or bi.

If they are all bi, there's no way that Bioware have written it so that you're constantly going to be reminded of their sexualities - you probably won't even notice unless you're paying attention to it.

It's not about wanting to erase the existence of straight people or something, it's about wanting to have optimum fun when playing the game. You get your heterosexual fun in every game featuring romance, this is one of the few games where gay and bi players get to have our fun as well, and it's exciting especially with the game release so close now. The 'all bi' movement is an expression of fans' enthusiasm and silliness.

Just wanted to say, your post expresses so perfectly what I never could. Thank you for writing it.

[catabuca]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Personally, I'm just excited to see some freaking equality! It'll be so awesome if homosexual!Hawke gets just as many romance-options as heterosexual!Hawke.

I mean, remember when the party members were still being announced? And we were all saying "well, we already know who the bisexual female is, but which one of the men will be bisexual?!" We just assumed that we'd only get one same-sex partner to romance! We just accepted that as the norm!

Actually, we didn't even accept it as a norm. We accepted it as charity. Because just one same-sex romance (particularly male same-sex romance) in a video game is way more than you'll see anywhere else. Was that fair to assume? Maybe. Maybe not. But given the precedent of Bioware games, we pretty much took it for granted that the heterosexual options in DA2 would outnumber the homosexual options.

But wait! What if.... what if all the love-interests were bisexual? What if a man who likes other men had the same amount of choices as a man who likes women?

Entirely realistic? No.

Fair? Forward-thinking? Equal?! ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY.

And that's what excites me about the possibility of an all-bisexual cast of love-interests: the chance to feel like an equal part of society, not a minority.

I also this post too. Sorry for quoting in its entirety, just wanted to give props where they are due.

[brain_damage]

Piggyback's guide has this line: "However, note that the presence of a Flirt option isn’t always a true indication that a romance is possible." Goodbye, Fenris m/m romance. Also, I continue to dislike him even more: "A tortured soul, Fenris can derive a modicum of solace from physical intimacy… but don’t expect him to respond favorably to declarations of love or need in the short term. As with Isabela, flirting and casual enjoyment will work best if you crave his attention or affections for the immediate future. Dismissive or cruel responses will lead to large rivalrly
increases and, most likely, preclude a future entanglement of limbs."

Also, it's confirmed that Sebastian is a romance option, though one that cannot be consumated - "though Sebastian only ever offers a chaste relationship".

*sigh*

[catabuca]

Athro wrote...

I think this is boiling down to the same issue that romances always run into - the notion that NPC sexuality is somehow fixed and real outside of the game.

Now some characters can have their sexuality be a defining part of their character - it's an element of what makes them who they are from a storytelling perspective. (Isabella, Zevran.) But some characters can have a kind of zero-state sexuality in regards to story. That means their sexuality isn't linked to their personality as vitally and as such they could be gay or straight and it wont change how they are in the story that is told.

In this case, their sexuality is in a zero-state. It's undefined until the PC chooses to romance them. Then the game goes "the PC wants to romance this character, for this story they will be made Gay/Straight based on the PC gender." From the player's perspective, the character has always been gay/straight. But from a metagame perspective they could be either but not both.

I suspect that this may be the case with DA2 as both the OXM and PC Gamer reviews have kind of implied that all LIs are romanceable regardless of gender without explicitly stating it.

This doesn't technically mean that all LIs are bi - but that all LIs are romanceable and their sexuality is defined by your choices. Just as your choices in the game doesn't mean all the choices happen and are objectively canon, the NPC's sexuality is not canon outside of your playthrough. Just because Merrill starts having a relationship with your fem Hawke doesn't mean she's gay in someone else's game of DA2.

Otherwise Alistair does and doesn't become king at the same time. Loghain does and doesn't join the Grey Wardens.

From a writing perspective, as a writer, characters are not necessarily defined by their sexuality unless it is important to their story. Many characters can be interchanged between straight and bi without having a dramatic effect on their personality. And if you are writing a character to be able to be either sexuality, that can easily be written to prevent contradiction if it has been planned from the start.

To put it another way, if Hawke can be written as a character and be either male or female, straight or bi - why can't the LIs be written to be either gay or straight depending on the game requirements of the player?

It doesn't make every instance of those LIs become bi. I know a lot of people who played Jade Empire who thought Sky was heterosexual because they never came across the option that had him romance the male PC.

It's kind of the same deal here. Of course the truth has yet to be revealed regarding DA2.  We have a little while still before we know for certain.

Conan

I'm just going to be quoting all the awesome posts, if that's okay.

Again, this says everything I think many people have been trying to explain to others in such a clear way. Thank you.

[Minxie]

brain_damage wrote...

Piggyback's guide has this line: "However, note that the presence of a Flirt option isn’t always a true indication that a romance is possible." Goodbye, Fenris m/m romance. Also, I continue to dislike him even more: "A tortured soul, Fenris can derive a modicum of solace from physical intimacy… but don’t expect him to respond favorably to declarations of love or need in the short term. As with Isabela, flirting and casual enjoyment will work best if you crave his attention or affections for the immediate future. Dismissive or cruel responses will lead to large rivalrly
increases and, most likely, preclude a future entanglement of limbs."

Also, it's confirmed that Sebastian is a romance option, though one that cannot be consumated - "though Sebastian only ever offers a chaste relationship".

*sigh*

Wow, so... iiiinteresting. I really wasn't expecting romance stuff with a DLC character at all. That's really cool. :happy:

[Ryzaki]

brain_damage wrote...

Piggyback's guide has this line: "However, note that the presence of a Flirt option isn’t always a true indication that a romance is possible." Goodbye, Fenris m/m romance. Also, I continue to dislike him even more: "A tortured soul, Fenris can derive a modicum of solace from physical intimacy… but don’t expect him to respond favorably to declarations of love or need in the short term. As with Isabela, flirting and casual enjoyment will work best if you crave his attention or affections for the immediate future. Dismissive or cruel responses will lead to large rivalrly
increases and, most likely, preclude a future entanglement of limbs."

Also, it's confirmed that Sebastian is a romance option, though one that cannot be consumated - "though Sebastian only ever offers a chaste relationship".

*sigh*

Well good thing I had my pessimist hat on.  

Hey Anders.... 

Oh yes and it looks like they aren't all bi. Who would've thought? :innocent: 

Get that siggy ready MorningBird. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 mars 2011 - 05:34 .

[Maugrim]

brain_damage wrote...

Piggyback's guide has this line: "However, note that the presence of a Flirt option isn’t always a true indication that a romance is possible." Goodbye, Fenris m/m romance. Also, I continue to dislike him even more: "A tortured soul, Fenris can derive a modicum of solace from physical intimacy… but don’t expect him to respond favorably to declarations of love or need in the short term. As with Isabela, flirting and casual enjoyment will work best if you crave his attention or affections for the immediate future. Dismissive or cruel responses will lead to large rivalrly
increases and, most likely, preclude a future entanglement of limbs."

Also, it's confirmed that Sebastian is a romance option, though one that cannot be consumated - "though Sebastian only ever offers a chaste relationship".

*sigh*

Oh no you don't....

*drags brain_damage back into the thread*

How did you get this info?  Preview pages, full copy of the guide?  From yourself, another thread a friend?  What about all the other possibilities?  Do we have any confirmation as besides Sebastian's bit because nothing you said confirms nor denies all bi romances. *shines interrogation light into face*  We have ways of making you talk....

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 03 mars 2011 - 05:37 .

[Taleroth]

He's probably just talking about Aveline. Who you can flirt with but not romance.

[GillianRey]

I would say since everyone has there own individual experience of the game then no story ark you opt for is going to be exactly how the developers default ark would be, therefor making no definitive right or wrong characterisation of an NPC in reference to there sexual preference. If your male and go for Isabela then shes straight and assumed to always have been equally if your female and go for her then she would be assumed to be and always have been gay within your story. Well thats what I think the deal with the "all are bi" thing is, if not then its just silly.

[Ryzaki]

Taleroth wrote...

He's probably just talking about Aveline. Who you can flirt with but not romance.

Oh yeah forgot about that. >_> 

Well they still aren't all bi. 

[brain_damage]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Oh no you don't....

*drags brain_damage back into the thread*

How did you get this info?  Preview pages, full copy of the guide?  From yourself, another thread a friend?  What about all the other possibilities?  Do we have any confirmation as besides Sebastians bit because nothing you said confirms nor denies all bi romances. *shines interregation light into face*  We have ways of making you talk....

Preview pages. There you go guys, just don't torture me:

http://www.piggyback...php?id_guide=48

Download the first thing - the whole compilation of preview pages and look around, information is scattered around the pages.

[Taleroth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

He's probably just talking about Aveline. Who you can flirt with but not romance.

Oh yeah forgot about that. >_> 

Well they still aren't all bi. 

I'll believe for you, Ryz.  I hold hope that you'll be able to have male on male indiscretions with the broody elf.

Modifié par Taleroth, 03 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[Fenn_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

He's probably just talking about Aveline. Who you can flirt with but not romance.

Oh yeah forgot about that. >_> 

Well they still aren't all bi. 

I'm going with most of them are bi.

Modifié par Fenn , 03 mars 2011 - 05:40 .

[Maugrim]

brain_damage wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Oh no you don't....

*drags brain_damage back into the thread*

How did you get this info?  Preview pages, full copy of the guide?  From yourself, another thread a friend?  What about all the other possibilities?  Do we have any confirmation as besides Sebastians bit because nothing you said confirms nor denies all bi romances. *shines interregation light into face*  We have ways of making you talk....

Preview pages. There you go guys, just don't torture me:

http://www.piggyback...php?id_guide=48

Download the first thing - the whole compilation of preview pages and look around, information is scattered around the pages.

*puts away feathers and caramel pudding*  I'm glad we didn't let this get ugly....

But seriously thanks!