6813 réponses à ce sujet

[MorningBird]

colejossart wrote...
^^  This.  Every member of your party being bisexual is not realistic characterization wise.  Bis/Gays make up about 8 percent of the population, and you want 66 % of your party to be that way?

78% of statistics are made up ... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

colejossart wrote...
Isn't it enough that there's one male and one female bi option?  In ME2 there wasn't one (Kelly doesn't count).  People complained and complained.  Now, in DA2 there's bi options.  But instead of being like, "Hey!  Awesome!  I get to have a gay Hawke!" you people are complaining that EVERYONE isn't bi.  Are you ever satisfied?  Next you'll be complaining that there's straight options at all.

Um, no one's complaining about that.   Well, I'm sure some people are, but not the majority, and I'm not trying to be glib here.  I, personally, am happy that we're getting at least one m/m and one f/f LI in DA2.

What people complain about is the secrecy regarding who the bi LI's are.  We know that there aren't any gay/lesbian exclusive LI's in DA2.  What this means is that straight players who play straight characters know who their LI's are while gay/lesbian players don't.  Male gamers who play male Hawke's can romance isabela and Merrill.  Female gamers who play female Hawkes can romance Fenris and Anders.

Gay/Lesbian players who play gay/lesbian Hawkes asked who their PC's would be able to romance.  BioWare told them to 'wait and see.'  Some people consider this unfair (since we know the LI's for straight Hawkes) and that's the area that generates the most complaining.

So to answer your question... yes, having one m/m and one f/f LI is enough (though I think people have a right to say they want more, just like people have a right to say they want things to remain the same.)

Not getting to know who the m/m and f/f LI's are at the same time the straight players get to learn who their straight Hawkes can romance, however, feels like exclusion.

Modifié par MorningBird, 04 mars 2011 - 04:22 .

[colejossart]

Athro wrote...

Unlike real life, a game should be able to have equal playability for everyone. Expecting all gay/bi players to just suck it up and play it straight is kind of unfair. As is saying "you get one choice, be happy with that."

Why is that not fair?  We should cater to a VERY small minority of the population?  I think it's unfair that you are expecting Bioware to do exactly what you want them to.  And I think that it's unfair that what you're asking for would hurt the quality of ALL the romances.  If all the romances had to be gender neutral than none of them would be as good.  And making 2 extra romances would consume time and resources best spent elsewhere.

There are plenty of ways to both cater for gay/bi players without canonically making all the NPCs bi while still allowing gay/bi players to romance every LI - as I have pointed out before.

How would you recommend doing this?

I know you have trouble understanding why this is such an issue - it's not an issue for you. But telling people that they should just accept things is not the solution. Fans saying to bioware "we want this" is. If Bioware choose to listen, then that's great.

Sure it is.  Guys are told to suck it up all the time.  Like:  You get hit in the jaw, then suck it up.  You don't get everything you want, then suck it up.  Sucking it up is part of life.  I would have liked warriors in this game who didn't completely suck.  I'm sucking it up.

When you spend most of your life compromising and having to often change to suit others, you kind of want your entertainment to mold to you for a change.

  I can hear a quartet of violins playing "My Heart Bleeds for You."

[obsessedwjpn]

falconlord5 wrote...
Actually, technically, we're all just varying degrees of bisexual. So, the Bi's make up 100% of the pop:devil:.

No offense meant but please don't assume how everyone in this world sees their sexuality. I think it is unfair to those who are emotionally tied to how they identify themself sexually. If that is just your opinion then fine but that is not something that everyone will agree on.

[falconlord5]

obsessedwjpn wrote...

EscherEnigma wrote...

... the forum is full of video game nerds. Of *course* there's lots of demanding.

That said, isn't telling the people interested in gay-romances that they should just shut up and be satisfied just as demanding?

I never said to shut up and be satisfied. I said that I wanted the bisexuality of characters to make sense to their character and not just be put in because fans ask for it. I would LOVE more sexual orientations in games. I play both genders and every single sexual orientation possible in games that allow it. I am all open for more as long as it makes sense in gameplay.

BTW I love how just because I make a comment that doesn't coincide with YES LET'S MAKE ALL THE CHARACTERS BISEXUAL, everyone is now saying I am being unfair and mean. I never said that I disagree with the concept, just how it is carried out.

You haven't even seen how it's carried out yet. And it would be very easy for BioWare to have it make sense for all characters (Merrill is just discovering her sexuality, Isabela loves and enjoys the pleasures that her body, and the bodies of others, give her, Anders is rather flamboyant to begin with, and the addition of Vengeance is rather open to experimentation, Fenris, having been tortured and enslaved by the Magi just really needs a friend that can evolve into something more, and  Sebastian joined the Chantry to avoid any scandal that liking both men and women might have brought on his family).

I am good.

[Maugrim]

obsessedwjpn wrote...

Athro wrote...

obsessedwjpn wrote...

I understand what everyone is saying: I just wish people would be happy with the game and stop making these demands, lol. Let's just enjoy the game however it is and stop asking for more. I guess I am easily pleased but that is how I am when it comes to games. I can mold to them rather than have them always molded for me.

But, to be fair, you don't need to do much molding do you?

Unlike real life, a game should be able to have equal playability for everyone. Expecting all gay/bi players to just suck it up and play it straight is kind of unfair. As is saying "you get one choice, be happy with that."

There are plenty of ways to both cater for gay/bi players without canonically making all the NPCs bi while still allowing gay/bi players to romance every LI - as I have pointed out before.

I know you have trouble understanding why this is such an issue - it's not an issue for you. But telling people that they should just accept things is not the solution. Fans saying to bioware "we want this" is. If Bioware choose to listen, then that's great.

When you spend most of your life compromising and having to often change to suit others, you kind of want your entertainment to mold to you for a change.

So my point is less valid because I am not part of the group who has to do a lot of compromising? I am not speaking as a heterosexual female, I am speaking as a writer who understands what it is like to have one's work put out and then have people demand things be made just for them. I am worried about the artists and the value of their art, not bisexuality specifically.

Not inherently less valid but your obviously influenced (as is everyone) by your privileges and making little to no effort to compensate for your bias.  That makes your opinion worth less or even invalid.

Your worry isn't really needed here thankfully.  David Gaider (you know the LEAD DA WRITER) is fully aware of the issues and thinks they need to be carefully considered. Frankly I'm gonna go with him knowing whats better for DA than you.

David Gaider wrote...

I would hope that some folks could be sensitive enough to be happy for those players, at the very least out of the selfish notion that they may one day end up in the minority of some content issue and receive the same consideration if nothing else.

Bolded for hope that people will take the advice.

David Gaider wrote...

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privelage. It's very easy for people who don't have an issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe
that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't knowwhat it feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to
addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority  privilege"as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem. That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which, as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only ever going to get limited resources.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 04 mars 2011 - 04:16 .

[purplerose1414]

Doesn't an unreliable narrator give a certain amount of leeway with characterization? And personally, the whole 'time and resources' thing doesn't gel with me. The mass effect team has used that excuse, and I suspect no one can say those romances were fleshed out.

e:Yeah, David Gaider speaks the truth.

Modifié par purplerose1414, 04 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[mesmerizedish]

makenzieshepard wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privelage. It's very easy for people who don't have an issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe
that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't knowwhat it feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to
addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority  privilege"as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem. That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which, as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only ever going to get limited resources.

Have I mentioned how much I lovelovelovelovelove David Gaider today? No? I lovelovelovelovelove David Gaider.

[falconlord5]

obsessedwjpn wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...
Actually, technically, we're all just varying degrees of bisexual. So, the Bi's make up 100% of the pop:devil:.

No offense meant but please don't assume how everyone in this world sees their sexuality. I think it is unfair to those who are emotionally tied to how they identify themself sexually. If that is just your opinion then fine but that is not something that everyone will agree on.

No, that's just the experiments done by our good friend Kinsey, who proved that we are all actually on a sliding scale when it comes to sexuality.

[Sarrawei]

Honestly, it's a game. I know this must break your heart, but there is no "real" Anders/Isabela/etc.. S/he might as well correspond to what the player wants on a play-by-play basis. I mean, we're paying money to receive something that entertains us (that's what a game is, yes?). Expanding his playable options is just giving people more bang for their buck. Players don't have to exploit every opportunity if they don't want to, but they should acknowledge the options were created with saleability in mind.

It's like adding extra options on a DVD menu. You might think they're stupid, but why malign others who are happy to have that extra resource available?

Modifié par Sarrawei, 04 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[koshiee]

MorningBird wrote...

colejossart wrote...
^^  This.  Every member of your party being bisexual is not realistic characterization wise.  Bis/Gays make up about 8 percent of the population, and you want 66 % of your party to be that way?

78% of statistics are made up ... [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

colejossart wrote...
Isn't it enough that there's one male and one female bi option?  In ME2 there wasn't one (Kelly doesn't count).  People complained and complained.  Now, in DA2 there's bi options.  But instead of being like, "Hey!  Awesome!  I get to have a gay Hawke!" you people are complaining that EVERYONE isn't bi.  Are you ever satisfied?  Next you'll be complaining that there's straight options at all.

Um, no one's complaining about that.   Well, I'm sure some people are, but not the majority, and I'm not trying to be glib here.  I, personally, am happy that we're getting at leas one m/m and one f/f LI in DA2.

What people complain about is the secrecy regarding who the bi LI's are.  We know that there aren't any gay/lesbian exclusive LI's in DA2.  What this means is that straight players who play straight characters know who their LI's are while gay/lesbian players don't.  Male gamers who play male Hawke's can romance isabela and Merrill.  Female gamers who play female Hawkes can romance Fenris and Anders.

Gay/Lesbian players who play gay/lesbian Hawkes asked who their PC's would be able to romance.  BioWare told them to 'wait and see.'  Some people consider this unfair (since we know the LI's for straight Hawkes) and that's the area that generates the most complaining.

So to answer your question... yes, having one m/m and one f/f LI is enough (though I think people have a right to say they want more, just like people have a right to say they want things to remain the same.)

Not getting to know who the m/m and f/f LI's are at the same time the straight players get to learn who their straight Hawkes can romance, however, feels like exclusion.

Modifié par koshiee, 04 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[obsessedwjpn]

I am sorry for offending you, I wasn't trying to do anything like that but apparently I am so I do apologize, but you don't have to attack me personally. I don't see myself as an extremely biased person and I do understand as much as I can how people feel when they are in the minority of something. I studied other cultures, learn other languages, live in a country on the other side of the world from my home, and do a lot outside my own comfort zone so I hope you can try and understand a little from my point of view as well.

I thought we were friends makenzie

Am I really that awful?

Modifié par obsessedwjpn, 04 mars 2011 - 04:21 .

[willikat]

[quote]colejossart wrote...

[quote]willikat wrote...

[quote]colejossart wrote...

 Every member of your party being bisexual is not realistic characterization wise.  Bis/Gays make up about 8 percent of the population, and you want 66 % of your party to be that way?  [/quote]

Really?  There are population statistics for THEDAS?  I'd love to see where this is located.  In the wiki, perhaps?

[/quote]

 I got a good laugh out of this lol.  [/quote][/quote]

Happy to oblige.  I couldn't resist.  It's the devil in me

[quote]colejossart wrote...

I was just using a reasonable assumption that Thedas's populations were at least reasonably close to the real world.  My only point is:

Why should the devs cater to 8% of the population?  I'd rather them not waste the time and resources making EVERYONE bi when those same resources could be used to flesh out other romances that a majority of people will actually want to play. [/quote]

First off, that assumes that only people who identify as gay or bi will play gay/bi romances.  This is not true at all.  You can find many people on these forums who identify as straight who will play the gay romances and have in DAO. 

I understand the resource point in concept.  But as someone who has modded cutscenes for DAO... changing scenes from male to female of the same race is not hard at all.  As for dialog differences, there was VERY little difference when romancing Leliana as a male or a female in DAO.  I did both paths, and only a few places did the gender have any affect on the dialog.  So, with there being only 2 body models to consider (male and female human) in DA2, rather than 6 in DAO, I can't see where there would be a huge expenditure of resources involved.

So long as the storytelling and characters fit, making the love interests all Bi would not cause a huge increase in "resource consumption".  Just my 2 cents.

[Maugrim]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

3) Persuant to the above, beware of majority privelage. It's very easy for people who don't have an issue that the minority feel (and this applies to race and gender-- in gaming, particularly-- as well as to sexual orientation) to believe
that something is "not a problem". "I don't see why you're so uptight about it!" Realize when you make these sorts of comments that you have no idea what you're talking about, for all our sakes. You don't knowwhat it feels like to be marginalized, and it behooves those in the majority to use at least a modicum of sensitivity when it comes to
addressing such issues. No, games aren't a platform for social change, but that doesn't mean we are also absent of responsibility when we include content in our games where such issues can arise. If we were to claim "majority  privilege"as our only guide, we do nothing but add to the problem. That said, we do face other limitations-- not least of which, as I said, is that this isn't the point of the game and thus is only ever going to get limited resources.

Have I mentioned how much I lovelovelovelovelove David Gaider today? No? I lovelovelovelovelove David Gaider.

<3 Me too.

Even when he takes me to task for acting like a tosser or being a punk.  Heck especially because of that.

But seriously Gaider is cool.  I'll never forget the one PM I got from an offhand remark in one of the DAO gay romance speculation threads about needing some good news after Prop 8 passed.  Eternal love and gratitude for such a small gesture.

[colejossart]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

colejossart wrote...

And as for straight guys playing girls and romancing guys...  just no.  That's like saying you believe in Heaven AND ghosts.  They are mutually exclusive lol.

They're called Catholics, actually.

I snipped the rest of your post, but it's all relevant to what I'm about to say. I usually try and not involve myself when things get hairy. This is my pet issue, so I'm happy to have reasonable discourse with reasonable people. People like you, I try not to comment on. But, your post couldn't be ignored. You're possibly the biggest douchebag, the absolute most asinine **** I've ever read on these forums.

Not the HOLY Ghost.  Just ghosts in general.  Spirits who never moved on.  I'm not religious at all, and even I know that the Bible says that hey, when you die you're eternal spirit goes to Heaven or Hell.  Some believe in Purgatory.  That's it.  There's no "sticking around" according to Christianity.

As for the rest of your post, I'm just as passionate about it as you are, just in the opposite way.  I think that catering to a small percentage of the population is one of the greatest problems in the USA today.  So yes, I think that taking time and resources away from making the VAST majority of people's game better vs. a vast minority of people's game better is unrealistic.  It'd be like having a large dairy farm with a few chickens.  Sure, you buy food for the chickens, but not as much as you would for the cows.

[Maugrim]

obsessedwjpn wrote...

I am sorry for offending you, I wasn't trying to do anything like that but apparently I am so I do apologize, but you don't have to attack me personally. I don't see myself as an extremely biased person and I do understand as much as I can how people feel when they are in the minority of something. I studied other cultures, learn other languages, and do a lot outside my own comfort zone so I hope you can try and understand a little from my point of view as well.

I thought we were friends makenzie

ALEXANDER: Why are they arguing?

JUGGLER: They're friends. They love contradiction. They thrive on challenge. They flourish in conflict.

ALEXANDER: Then why are they friends?

LWAXANA: Who else are you going to fight with if not your friends?

- Star Trek The Next Generation, "Cost of Living"



I don't continue arguments with people I don't consider friends for the most part.  I think your wrong and I'm pointing out why I think you wrong.  Feel free to do that same :happy:

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 04 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[colejossart]

willikat wrote...
I understand the resource point in concept.  But as someone who has modded cutscenes for DAO... changing scenes from male to female of the same race is not hard at all.  As for dialog differences, there was VERY little difference when romancing Leliana as a male or a female in DAO.  I did both paths, and only a few places did the gender have any affect on the dialog.  So, with there being only 2 body models to consider (male and female human) in DA2, rather than 6 in DAO, I can't see where there would be a huge expenditure of resources involved.

So long as the storytelling and characters fit, making the love interests all Bi would not cause a huge increase in "resource consumption".  Just my 2 cents.

But that isn't the only point.  Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  Morrigan's romance was more fleshed out and interesting, at least in my opinion.  So writing ALL of the romances as gender neutral would take away from ALL the romances, damaging the experience of the many for the experience of the few.

[MorningBird]

colejossart wrote...

But that isn't the only point.  Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  Morrigan's romance was more fleshed out and interesting, at least in my opinion.  So writing ALL of the romances as gender neutral would take away from ALL the romances, damaging the experience of the many for the experience of the few.

Subjective opinion, not fact.

[Taleroth]

colejossart wrote...

Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  

I would like to see the study you performed to come to this conclusion.  I expect control and test groups and double blind procedures.

How significant was the effect?

Modifié par Taleroth, 04 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[colejossart]

MorningBird wrote...

colejossart wrote...

But that isn't the only point.  Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  Morrigan's romance was more fleshed out and interesting, at least in my opinion.  So writing ALL of the romances as gender neutral would take away from ALL the romances, damaging the experience of the many for the experience of the few.

Subjective opinion, not fact.

That's why I put in my opinion in the very next sentence.

[Maugrim]

MorningBird wrote...

colejossart wrote...

But that isn't the only point.  Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  Morrigan's romance was more fleshed out and interesting, at least in my opinion.  So writing ALL of the romances as gender neutral would take away from ALL the romances, damaging the experience of the many for the experience of the few.

Subjective opinion, not fact.

QFT

Also I'd say the main reason Leliana strory is considered inferior is not  that it's gender neutral...which it isn't btw though it's relatively close.  It's that Morrigan is the lead female companion and ties into the plot of the story better.

[colejossart]

Taleroth wrote...

colejossart wrote...

Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  

I would like to see the study you performed to come to this conclusion.  I expect control and test groups and double blind procedures.

How significant was the effect?

I can't quite tell if you're joking...

[willikat]

colejossart wrote...

willikat wrote...
I understand the resource point in concept.  But as someone who has modded cutscenes for DAO... changing scenes from male to female of the same race is not hard at all.  As for dialog differences, there was VERY little difference when romancing Leliana as a male or a female in DAO.  I did both paths, and only a few places did the gender have any affect on the dialog.  So, with there being only 2 body models to consider (male and female human) in DA2, rather than 6 in DAO, I can't see where there would be a huge expenditure of resources involved.

So long as the storytelling and characters fit, making the love interests all Bi would not cause a huge increase in "resource consumption".  Just my 2 cents.

But that isn't the only point.  Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  Morrigan's romance was more fleshed out and interesting, at least in my opinion.  So writing ALL of the romances as gender neutral would take away from ALL the romances, damaging the experience of the many for the experience of the few.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point (bolded).  I thought Leliana's romance was far superior to Morrigan's. [Edit for clarification] It's a matter of taste, not fact that making the romances gender neutral would damage "the experience of the many".

Modifié par willikat, 04 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[mesmerizedish]

Taleroth wrote...

colejossart wrote...

Leliana was written as gender neutral, and her romance suffered because of it.  

I would like to see the study you performed to come to this conclusion.  I expect control and test groups and double blind procedures.

How significant was the effect?

I don't think she was even really written as gender-neutral. She was written as a lesbian, and had some tacked-on man-actiono thrown into the mix.

[obsessedwjpn]

Now I feel bad for letting my majority bias blind me. I am sorry to anyone offended by what I said. I feel bad now for even being party of the majority....-goes to her corner-

[EighmyLupin]

colejossart wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

colejossart wrote...

And as for straight guys playing girls and romancing guys...  just no.  That's like saying you believe in Heaven AND ghosts.  They are mutually exclusive lol.

They're called Catholics, actually.

I snipped the rest of your post, but it's all relevant to what I'm about to say. I usually try and not involve myself when things get hairy. This is my pet issue, so I'm happy to have reasonable discourse with reasonable people. People like you, I try not to comment on. But, your post couldn't be ignored. You're possibly the biggest douchebag, the absolute most asinine **** I've ever read on these forums.

Not the HOLY Ghost.  Just ghosts in general.  Spirits who never moved on.  I'm not religious at all, and even I know that the Bible says that hey, when you die you're eternal spirit goes to Heaven or Hell.  Some believe in Purgatory.  That's it.  There's no "sticking around" according to Christianity.
.

Just wanted to point out that all the Catholics I know believe in ghosts not the Holy Ghost (well they believe that too) but in "Boo, I'm going to haunt you" kinda ghost.