6813 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Haunter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Okay, well, if you want play games.

What?

Actually, nevermind. Let's stop right there.

Damn!!! You were just getting to the good part!!!

[Maria Caliban]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Is there actually any real confirmation that every romance option is bi?

I don't know. I'm trying to find that out.

[Yamsandjams]

Here's hoping Isabella is still up for foursomes... or maybe the devs decided to top that and you'll be able to have an all-party orgy now.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Okay, well, if you want play games.

What?

Actually, nevermind. Let's stop right there.

I just want to state clearly that I meant that most innocently.

[Addai]

Yamsandjams wrote...

Here's hoping Isabella is still up for foursomes... or maybe the devs decided to top that and you'll be able to have an all-party orgy now.

In the Chantry.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

Is there actually any real confirmation that every romance option is bi?

I don't know. I'm trying to find that out.

Okay, what's "confirmed" to you? Once I know that, I can give you a yes/no answer

[Blacklash93]

All bi romances are confirmed. At least on the M/M side.

Take it from a spoiler thread lurker.

[Harutes]

ReileenaOrion wrote...

I don't understand whats wrong. Just because the characters are romance-able by either gender of Hawke doesn't mean they will be bi to everyone else. They may be straight and only change because of your character. The love they have for your character would be what changes a previously straight character. Give it a chance you might be surprised.

This is how I hope it is, I hope it's not obvious, or doesn't kick in, unless you want it to, at least with a couple of them anyways. I'm glad the option is apparently there for those who want it, its great to have those choices, I just hope its handled in a way so as to not impose it on everyone. I'm optimistic.

[draken-heart]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

Is there actually any real confirmation that every romance option is bi?

I don't know. I'm trying to find that out.

maria, i think klace can be pm'd to try the merill flirt thing with a female hawke, was gonna try that myself but dont wanna get involved directly, or at least to find someone who can, but klace has a reviewer's edition of the game

Modifié par draken-heart, 05 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[Enshaid]

Blacklash93 wrote...

All bi romances are confirmed. At least on the M/M side.

Take it from a spoiler thread lurker.

VINDICATION

[Hagbard23]

You know, I was iffy about the all bi thing, seeing it as unrealistic, but liking the number of choices (compared to earlier Bioware games, IM LOOKING AT YOU KOTOR). Thinking about it more, improbable things like that happen all the time. In HS nearly all of my friends were bi and every time I go to the pool at my apartment there is at least one s/s couple. I guess it depends on where you live. Perhaps Ferelden is bit more Greek than British?

[Oneiropolos]

I'm really not seeing why people are having an ISSUE with them all being Bi. It doesn't effect MY gameplay even though I'll probably only play heterosexual romances. What do -I- care if another player wants to hook up with Anders or Fenris? And who knows, I might even be inclined to go for one of the women in one of my playthrough just for fun, the same way I romanced Lelaina in one. I'm a heterosexual female, I only play females in these sort of games... I tend to only romance males. But why should MY choices limit the choices of others? You can't even use the arguments that are used in real life against same sex relationships (not saying those arguments are VALID, just the ones that exist). Unless you are hacking into someone else's computer, you're not going to have to watch them romance someone you don't think should be bisexual. In YOUR playthrough, you can pretend that love interest is only heterosexual and JUST NOT FLIRT with them. Problem solved.

As for people saying that it's unrealistic to think that all characters would have the hots for Hawke... all characters don't. Look. Again. I'm a straight female. I have alot of straight male friends. The only one I have the 'hots' for is my boyfriend. Could I theoretically have the hots for all the other males around me? Theoretically, I could. If he's straight, and I'm straight, that's not stopping me. What's stopping me is I'm NOT in a relationship with my male friends and I'm NOT interested in them that way. So what if every love interest CAN THEORETICALLY be interested that way? It doesn't mean they are. Or that your Hawke will be in them. It just leaves the options open for other people.

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 05 mars 2011 - 06:14 .

[reynomatt]

Oneiropolos wrote...

I'm really not seeing why people are having an ISSUE with them all being Bi. It doesn't effect MY gameplay even though I'll probably only play heterosexual romances. What do -I- care if another player wants to hook up with Anders or Fenris? And who knows, I might even be inclined to go for one of the women in one of my playthrough just for fun, the same way I romanced Lelaina in one. I'm a heterosexual female, I only play females in these sort of games... I tend to only romance males. But why should MY choices limit the choices of others? You can't even use the arguments that are used in real life against same sex relationships (not saying those arguments are VALID, just the ones that exist). Unless you are hacking into someone else's computer, you're not going to have to watch them romance someone you don't think should be bisexual. In YOUR playthrough, you can pretend that love interest is only heterosexual and JUST NOT FLIRT with them. Problem solved.

As for people saying that it's unrealistic to think that all characters would have the hots for Hawke... all characters don't. Look. Again. I'm a straight female. I have alot of straight male friends. The only one I have the 'hots' for is my boyfriend. Could I theoretically have the hots for all the other males around me? Theoretically, I could. If he's straight, and I'm straight, that's not stopping me. What's stopping me is I'm NOT in a relationship with my male friends and I'm NOT interested in them that way. So what if every love interest CAN THEORETICALLY be interested that way? It doesn't mean they are. Or that your Hawke will be in them. It just leaves the options open for other people.

I completely agree. I feel, if for instance the companions are all romanceable by either gender, BioWare has tried to appeal to all of their fans. Which an act of inclusiveness like that is very much appreciated, and we all love <3 you BioWare for even allowing that to be a possibility. When so many other games would never even consider it. Alternatively I don’t think the companions are in fact “bisexual.” Labeling the companions in such a way is so shallow. Zevran and Leliana were bisexualish because they have been romantically linked to both genders. When you’re younger SOME people do experiment with their sexual identity, technically Leliana could have been completely straight and the same with Zevran. They’re sexuality before my Warden was a product of their own experiences in life. I think both characters were exceptionally well written and will miss them on March 8th. I am speculating when I say that the companions will probably not have the same backgrounds where past relationships will label them either way (besides Isabella who we know lets anyone dock in her port). I believe that if you’re after Merrill romancing her as femHawke she’s not going to talk about that elf male eye-candy she left behind. Alternatively with maleHawke she’s not going to talk about that female elf she used to cuddle with during the Dalish pow-wow meetings by the fire. In both scenario’s she’s either exclusively a lesbian or exclusively straight, which is what people wanted right? RIGHT?!! This works because you as a player decided her orientation for her by pursuing such an option. I loved Wade and Herren and didn’t like the idea that Herren might be a desire demon, so I didn’t buy the Darkspawn DLC. As far as my game is concerned they moved to Thedas’ equivalent of Key West after Vigil’s Keep was destroyed. It’s how you play that determines what you experience, BioWare seems very interested in NOT forcing things on the player. Also as much as I’d love to be caught in the dilemma of whom I romance with my customized-clean-shaven maleHawke Anders or Fenris? We still don’t have what is considered hard evidence, and if we do than ignore that last bit because I have tried to keep up with this thread, but I do not enjoy how much complaining goes on here.

We’ve got two days here in America and a couple more days in Europe is it at all possible we can curve this thread to discuss how much we appreciate what we do know and what were excited to see rather than focusing on
what may or may not know exists and why we hate that it was handled that way. We as fans sometimes take what we don’t know and turn it into nerdrage, which in effect ends up being dispensed at others here on the forum. That’s not a productive use of your emotions. Remember when people had huge doubts about Dragon Age 2 and then we got our hands on the demo and it was SOOOOOO much better than origins. The mage was better, the rogue was better, and the facial animation is SOOOOO much better. We need to have faith in BioWare. We also have to realize that games DO have limitations, there are resource spaces that are taken up leaving out room for content they may have wanted to give us but can’t. They have to budget their work and I’m sure they wish they didn’t have to. It’s hard because as fans a lot of us take this passion for the game so seriously. But BioWare is a great company and if they see a problem they aspire to fix it, they evolve. If after March 8th there’s so many fans pissed there isn’t an exclusive straight female li, maybe you’ll get one as a DLC. Maybe not, I have no right to make those kinds of promises. Dragon Age 2 is also not going to be the last game the company makes. If any of these promotional in-game items per how many players do this or that are an indication, BioWare hopefully will be set for as long as they want.

Modifié par reynomatt, 05 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[Saber-Scorpion]

If all of the characters really are bisexual, I see it as letting 'fanservice' interfere with the writing aspect of the game. Because, you know, some people in the real world just aren't bisexual. And it stands to reason that some of the characters in the game wouldn't be either.

No matter what the excuses, I still see it as fanservice. Literally, in fact.

If it's true, I'm disappointed.

Still looking forward to the game, planning to romance Merrill. But I just felt like I had to say something about that.

[catabuca]

In terms of 'confirmation', no dev has come out and stated 'yes, they are all romanceable by either gender Hawke'. We won't get it either, because it's something they have intimated they are not allowed to confirm.

However, several of us watched someone who has a legitimate review copy play live (on livestream) through various scenes with Fenris and Anders as mHawke, and watched him initiating romance with them, and watched them responding to that romance.

It couldn't be clearer. They are bi.

[Deified Data]

Oneiropolos wrote...

As for people saying that it's unrealistic to think that all characters would have the hots for Hawke... all characters don't. Look. Again. I'm a straight female. I have alot of straight male friends. The only one I have the 'hots' for is my boyfriend. Could I theoretically have the hots for all the other males around me? Theoretically, I could. If he's straight, and I'm straight, that's not stopping me. What's stopping me is I'm NOT in a relationship with my male friends and I'm NOT interested in them that way. So what if every love interest CAN THEORETICALLY be interested that way? It doesn't mean they are. Or that your Hawke will be in them. It just leaves the options open for other people.

A very thoughtful post. That being said, keep in mind that this is Bioware we're talking about. Any romantic interest that can be interested will be interested, and it'll likely be up to Hawke to turn them down one after the other. Those who played as male Shepard in MEII recall Jack's situation - it was impossible not to steer the conversation in that direction, and you were chided for "playing around" even if you tried to approach her platonically (assuming you were already in the relationship). The same thing happened in Origins - if you got someone's affection high enough, you'd start a relationship with them whether you meant to or not.

So, while you're right that the world shouldn't revolve around Hawke, remember how the past romances worked. You're going to compliment Merril's hair one day and end up in bed not a minute after...

[Oneiropolos]

Saying it's just fanservice is kinda ridiculous in the genre though. I mean, has anyone looked at Bethany's chest or the fact that our female pirate considers pants as optional? (Let's be honest. Her tabard is not long enough to actually work in long term.) Even FLEMMETH was sexed up. When I saw it all, I just sorta groaned and rolled my eyes, but was basically "meh, whatever." on it. I play MMOs too and I just *love* when my tank gets the same piece of gear as a male and of course, it's low cut and my stomach is entirely bared when it covers a male's chest entirely (sarcasm). You could make arguments about how seriously sexist that is, and a lot of times, sadly, guys will give the response "Most game developers are males, and that's their main target audience, just deal with it."

Bioware, on the other hand, is going "You know what, we may put fanservice in our games by letting the males pick out companions who's chest makes Barbie look like she's proportional...but we're also going to put in an angsty pretty male elf, good looking princes, and make our men decent looking too. On top of that, we're going to let the players actually have a wider variety in who they can romance, including same gender, even though that's not a popular masculine gamer thing to do." So Bioware may be giving fanservice... but for once, it's equal opportunity fanservice. Across genders and sexualities. I WASN'T a person stomping my foot demanding on bisexuality for their characters. I just don't have a remote problem with them doing it.

Now if a person who is arguing bisexuality=fanservice=bad also wants to argue that the females in the game should also cover up and have their models changed so they're less focussed on some sort of typical male ideal... then at least that person is being completely fair on saying fanservice is a bad thing. But one type of fanservice can't be considered as 'acceptable' and another type as 'unrealistic' and somehow 'detrimental' to the game. To that, I contend, no female pirate would EVER be running around in what our dear Izzie does. My major was in history, I studied female pirates extensively. Look 'em up.

Of course. The fact our characters can kill dragons and become royalty and champions is playing to our desire for achieving glorious things vicariously through our characters... also fanservice. If we were a fanfic, we'd be the ultimate mary sues. If every character is 'bisexual'...that only means the option is there. I mean, I just managed to go through all of KOTOR and ACCIDENTALLY not trigger the romance. D: I totally don't even know what point I apparently gave the major "No" sign at. Romances can be avoided. In your playthrough, the other characters can all be straight. Nothing's stopping you from playing the game that way, and that's the beauty of it. I guess as long as none of them ninjamance you anyway.

Modifié par Oneiropolos, 05 mars 2011 - 03:07 .

[Augoeides]

Saber-Scorpion wrote...

If all of the characters really are bisexual, I see it as letting 'fanservice' interfere with the writing aspect of the game. Because, you know, some people in the real world just aren't bisexual. And it stands to reason that some of the characters in the game wouldn't be either.

No matter what the excuses, I still see it as fanservice. Literally, in fact.

If it's true, I'm disappointed.

Still looking forward to the game, planning to romance Merrill. But I just felt like I had to say something about that.

Why do people assume that Bisexuals and/or Homosexuals HAVE be the minority in the party or at least on par in numbers? I mean, yes it is unlikely that if you went gallavanting across a country forming a group of people from no particular background to aid you that they would all be Bi or Gay but it's most certainly possible. It's not like there's some cosmic force that automatically ratios the presence of homosexuals and bisexuals to heterosexuals around people.

Once you leave behind the idea of heterosexuality as normal therefore essential to a party dynamic I think it's very easy to wave away any notions of 'fanservice'. Anyway, if a character's bisexuality is decided upon purely for 'fanservice' and that physically and emotionally impacts the way we relate to the character in game (not in speculation) in a major fashion THEN I think the writers need to seriously re-examine their work and see if the character revolves around their sexuality like some carichature of fan dreams or if the sexuality of the character revolves around a seperate and distinct character framework that can be seperated from a romance plotline. THAT, or the player simply has sexuality issues.

Modifié par Augoeides, 05 mars 2011 - 03:11 .

[ColaQueen]

Me, I don't have a problem with all Bi characters. It's true in the real world not everyone is bi, but for the sake of gameplay without stuffing the companion list with loads of people just for different types of romances it makes sense. That way you can have the romance of your preference with the character of your preference rather than having to settle with the only gay or straight option available to you. You get more choice. Bioware is all about the choice.

[Deified Data]

Oneiropolos wrote...

Of course. The fact our characters can kill dragons and become royalty and champions is playing to our desire for achieving glorious things vicariously through our characters... also fanservice. If we were a fanfic, we'd be the ultimate mary sues. If every character is 'bisexual'...that only means the option is there. I mean, I just managed to go through all of KOTOR and ACCIDENTALLY not trigger the romance. D: I totally don't even know what point I apparently gave the major "No" sign at. Romances can be avoided. In your playthrough, the other characters can all be straight. Nothing's stopping you from playing the game that way, and that's the beauty of it. I guess as long as none of them ninjamance you anyway.

Is it possible to avoid romance? Certainly, but Bioware is going to throw everything it has at you until you romance one of their characters. At least in Origins you had a clear statement of intentions to choose from, with more than one way to say "no" to someone's advances. With DAII's switch to the conversation wheel, we may have many of the same romantic issues that plagued Mass Effect II, namely not being able to decipher what the paraphrased dialogue will mean when Hawke actually says it. You may choose something that you think comes off as friendly or sympathetic, only to have it come out of Hawke's mouth as outright flirtation. A particularly awkward scene with MEII's Miranda comes to mind, where Shepard states something to the effect of "It's nice to see you smile", which leads to Miranda becoming instantly enamoured. Maybe DAII can label romantic dialogue with a heart icon, or something, to make this less of an issue?

[catabuca]

Oneiropolos wrote...

*snip*

So Bioware may be giving fanservice... but for once, it's equal opportunity fanservice.

*snip*

Of course. The fact our characters can kill dragons and become royalty and champions is playing to our desire for achieving glorious things vicariously through our characters... also fanservice.

*snip*

These points really stood out to me.

You're right, it may be fanservice, but to some extent having the romances at all is fanservice. On the other hand, having romances in the game increases the ways in which you can become emotionally attached to the characters, which is something the writing of the game wants you to do. Giving the option for gender or sexuality not to be an issue in the formation of those attachments merely allows more chances for people to form different bonds with the characters and interact with them in different ways. If it also allows a particular section of the community to feel included, well all the better.

We play these games for entertainment. Different parts of the games are more important for some. Some play mostly for the combat. Some for the story. Yes, some for the chance to romance characters. None of these is the right or wrong way to play the game. The wonderful thing about BW is that it includes content for people who want to play either of these ways, and tries to do so to the best of their abilities. With each game that comes out the alter, refine and evolve how they do that, and this is just one of the latest of those evolutions. Maybe they won't do the same in the next DA game, maybe they will.

But in the meantime, I am deeply moved by the amount of people who feel they are equally represented, the people who are grateful to the writing team for remembering them, and for including them, in amongst all the other things that they add, be it for fanservice or not.

[Augoeides]

Deified Data wrote...

Oneiropolos wrote...

Of course. The fact our characters can kill dragons and become royalty and champions is playing to our desire for achieving glorious things vicariously through our characters... also fanservice. If we were a fanfic, we'd be the ultimate mary sues. If every character is 'bisexual'...that only means the option is there. I mean, I just managed to go through all of KOTOR and ACCIDENTALLY not trigger the romance. D: I totally don't even know what point I apparently gave the major "No" sign at. Romances can be avoided. In your playthrough, the other characters can all be straight. Nothing's stopping you from playing the game that way, and that's the beauty of it. I guess as long as none of them ninjamance you anyway.

Is it possible to avoid romance? Certainly, but Bioware is going to throw everything it has at you until you romance one of their characters. At least in Origins you had a clear statement of intentions to choose from, with more than one way to say "no" to someone's advances. With DAII's switch to the conversation wheel, we may have many of the same romantic issues that plagued Mass Effect II, namely not being able to decipher what the paraphrased dialogue will mean when Hawke actually says it. You may choose something that you think comes off as friendly or sympathetic, only to have it come out of Hawke's mouth as outright flirtation. A particularly awkward scene with MEII's Miranda comes to mind, where Shepard states something to the effect of "It's nice to see you smile", which leads to Miranda becoming instantly enamoured. Maybe DAII can label romantic dialogue with a heart icon, or something, to make this less of an issue?

Isn't this why they have marked the centre of the dialogue wheel with symbols which show the tonality of the paraphrased statement? (In DA2)

[catabuca]

Deified Data wrote...

Is it possible to avoid romance? Certainly, but Bioware is going to throw everything it has at you until you romance one of their characters. At least in Origins you had a clear statement of intentions to choose from, with more than one way to say "no" to someone's advances. With DAII's switch to the conversation wheel, we may have many of the same romantic issues that plagued Mass Effect II, namely not being able to decipher what the paraphrased dialogue will mean when Hawke actually says it. You may choose something that you think comes off as friendly or sympathetic, only to have it come out of Hawke's mouth as outright flirtation. A particularly awkward scene with MEII's Miranda comes to mind, where Shepard states something to the effect of "It's nice to see you smile", which leads to Miranda becoming instantly enamoured. Maybe DAII can label romantic dialogue with a heart icon, or something, to make this less of an issue?

You are aware DA2 is labelling flirtatious dialogue with a heart icon, right? It's already in the game.

But regardless, there is no more of a problem a bisexual character coming on to you in a game than a straight one. If you are finding yourself in an unwanted romance, the problem there is one of game mechanics, not of sexual orientation. The question of 'ninjamance' seems to only ever come up in threads that discuss s/s romance; it's being used as a foil by many to attack the inclusion of s/s content, and not being looked at on its own as a faulty gameplay dynamic.

[Deified Data]

catabuca wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Is it possible to avoid romance? Certainly, but Bioware is going to throw everything it has at you until you romance one of their characters. At least in Origins you had a clear statement of intentions to choose from, with more than one way to say "no" to someone's advances. With DAII's switch to the conversation wheel, we may have many of the same romantic issues that plagued Mass Effect II, namely not being able to decipher what the paraphrased dialogue will mean when Hawke actually says it. You may choose something that you think comes off as friendly or sympathetic, only to have it come out of Hawke's mouth as outright flirtation. A particularly awkward scene with MEII's Miranda comes to mind, where Shepard states something to the effect of "It's nice to see you smile", which leads to Miranda becoming instantly enamoured. Maybe DAII can label romantic dialogue with a heart icon, or something, to make this less of an issue?

You are aware DA2 is labelling flirtatious dialogue with a heart icon, right? It's already in the game.

But regardless, there is no more of a problem a bisexual character coming on to you in a game than a straight one. If you are finding yourself in an unwanted romance, the problem there is one of game mechanics, not of sexual orientation. The question of 'ninjamance' seems to only ever come up in threads that discuss s/s romance; it's being used as a foil by many to attack the inclusion of s/s content, and not being looked at on its own as a faulty gameplay dynamic.

Hah, it's not the s/s flirtation that bugs me (Zevran was a favorite from Origins), but the trouble it gets you into with your established romanctic interest. I give Morrigan her mirror and get scolded by Leliana for sleeping around? I'd like to avoid situations like that, if at all possible.

That being said, thanks for the info. The convo wheel will benefit from the symbols, I think, so long as they're all as clear as the romantic options.

[Augoeides]

catabuca wrote...

Deified Data wrote...

Is it possible to avoid romance? Certainly, but Bioware is going to throw everything it has at you until you romance one of their characters. At least in Origins you had a clear statement of intentions to choose from, with more than one way to say "no" to someone's advances. With DAII's switch to the conversation wheel, we may have many of the same romantic issues that plagued Mass Effect II, namely not being able to decipher what the paraphrased dialogue will mean when Hawke actually says it. You may choose something that you think comes off as friendly or sympathetic, only to have it come out of Hawke's mouth as outright flirtation. A particularly awkward scene with MEII's Miranda comes to mind, where Shepard states something to the effect of "It's nice to see you smile", which leads to Miranda becoming instantly enamoured. Maybe DAII can label romantic dialogue with a heart icon, or something, to make this less of an issue?

You are aware DA2 is labelling flirtatious dialogue with a heart icon, right? It's already in the game.

But regardless, there is no more of a problem a bisexual character coming on to you in a game than a straight one. If you are finding yourself in an unwanted romance, the problem there is one of game mechanics, not of sexual orientation. The question of 'ninjamance' seems to only ever come up in threads that discuss s/s romance; it's being used as a foil by many to attack the inclusion of s/s content, and not being looked at on its own as a faulty gameplay dynamic.

Well said, I've been ninjamanced while playing a Male Warden by Morrigan and Leliana, and MShep has been ninja'd by Liara and Ashley before. It really does boil down to, as you say, a faulty game mechanic, which inevitably stems from textual or vocal dialogue being unable to universally convey its tonality without it being clearly displayed in text or imagery.

Modifié par Augoeides, 05 mars 2011 - 03:36 .