6813 réponses à ce sujet

[foam]

draken-heart wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

 the whole LI being bi deal, i still doubt that it is true, doesn't seem like what bioware would do

Cute, but my name's already in people's sigs =)

those M!Hawke/anders&fenris things could not mean anything though

Denial is adorable.

just saying, it could just be friendly teasing you know

not saying i dont mind, just doesnt seem likely for them all to be bisexual even using the "evidence"

i might even play fem!hawke rogue going for merill first

It makes a lot of sense if you take into consideration the fact that we won't be able to create same-sex romance mods like in Origins since we now have a voiced protagonist. This really seems like the best solution.

[Maria Caliban]

The mods have asked people to keep the spoilers to the spoiler thread. Repeatedly.

I'm glad that you've seen the livestreams and know about Ander's past relationships but *I don't.*

[ipgd]

Tyrium wrote...

Whether I like this or not depends on how its done. I'm all for all romances being available to both genders, I think that's great. I would like to know about how its done though. I want Isabela to remain bisexual regardless of your gender, as that fits her character. I don't know enough about Fenris or Merril to say anything, really, whether they have them bi or subjective is fine by me. To me, and I know many of you disagreee, Anders was straight in Awakening. Therefore, I hope he is subjective in 2, so that if I play a female, that 'reality' where he is straight remains a valid one. If not, i'll be modding those lines to trigger only with a male. Its about consistency, not homophobia. I may be a straight woman, but I thoroughly enjoy my slash.

There was never anything in Awakening that indicated Anders was exclusively interested in women. A preference for women, sure, but having a relationship with a man doesn't contradict that.

But, come on, he was pretty damn metro even in Awakening. I don't think giving him a touch of the bi is much of a stretch.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The mods have asked people to keep the spoilers to the spoiler thread. Repeatedly.

I'm glad that you've seen the livestreams and know about Ander's past relationships but *I don't.*

I'm sorry . I had a warning, but now I've also greyed out that paragraph.

[Tyrium]

I just don't like the fact that they had to do a character retcon. Making him "subjective" would have allowed for a smaller retcon, while making Fenris bi for all would have been fine.

I'm still holding out hope, but hey

By the way, what is it that makes people so sure Fenris is the "subjective" one and Anders is always bi? Did we get a livestream of Fem!Hawke with Anders where he mentioned *spoiler* that I missed?

Modifié par Tyrium, 06 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[Maria Caliban]

Are we sure Fenris and Merrill are subjective? As in, the writer intend them to not be bisexual, simply gay in one playthrough and straight in another?

I know it takes a while to get through all the various banters. If I'm male and Isabela flirts with Merrill, is it possible she'll flirt back?

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

The mods have asked people to keep the spoilers to the spoiler thread. Repeatedly.

I'm glad that you've seen the livestreams and know about Ander's past relationships but *I don't.*

I'm sorry . I had a warning, but now I've also greyed out that paragraph.

Don't be. I tend to skip right to your posts even though I know you're excited about them all being bi and have seen the streams and probably want to talk about how awesome it all is.

I've managed to not even look at the huge spoiler thread but I keep on jumping to your posts.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 mars 2011 - 05:07 .

[Dr. wonderful]

All right, I won't spoiler jack s***.


Keep on fighting about everything.

[falconlord5]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Are we sure Fenris and Merrill are subjective? As in, the writer intend them to not be bisexual, simply gay in one playthrough and straight in another?

I know it takes a while to get through all the various banters. If I'm male and Isabela flirts with Merrill, is it possible she'll flirt back?

 

I think if anybody flirts with Merrill, she'll get very flustered.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Are we sure Fenris and Merrill are subjective? As in, the writer intend them to not be bisexual, simply gay in one playthrough and straight in another?

I know it takes a while to get through all the various banters. If I'm male and Isabela flirts with Merrill, is it possible she'll flirt back?

No. It's my best guess based on what Mr. Gaider has said about having them all actually be bi being his least-favored implementation. Given that they're both sexual blank slates, I think it's reasonable to suspect that they may be subjective.

[Maria Caliban]

Then it's reasonable to think that's what David did with Fenris. I don't think Mary has ever spoken about the matter.

falconlord5 wrote...

I think if anybody flirts with Merrill, she'll get very flustered.

Possibly, but I'd think that after a few years of interacting with Isabela, she'd become a bit more comfortable.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[falconlord5]

Maria Caliban wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

I think if anybody flirts with Merrill, she'll get very flustered.

Possibly, but I'd think that after a few years of interacting with Isabela, she'd become a bit more comfortable.

Right, so we move from 'very flustered' to 'merely flustered'.

And at the end, we'll get 'mildly flustered'.

[mesmerizedish]

falconlord5 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

I think if anybody flirts with Merrill, she'll get very flustered.

Possibly, but I'd think that after a few years of interacting with Isabela, she'd become a bit more comfortable.

Right, so we move from 'very flustered' to 'merely flustered'.

And at the end, we'll get 'mildly flustered'.

I can imagine Merrill doing an "Oh... do you really?" in that wonderful Eve Mylse voice I just squeed.

[Addai]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No. It's my best guess based on what Mr. Gaider has said about having them all actually be bi being his least-favored implementation. Given that they're both sexual blank slates, I think it's reasonable to suspect that they may be subjective.

Which is so weak.  I think if I were bisexual, I'd be insulted that the writers feel they have to play that game.  Then again, the banners gloating about All Bi suggest that's not how it's being taken, for whatever reason.

[SirGladiator]

Its about allowing the players to enjoy the romance, and not defining it for them in a limiting way. If you want Merrill to be straight, she is. If you want her to be bi, she is. If you want her to be a lesbian, she is. It's a pretty simple, and very fun, concept. I think everybody's gonna have a lot of fun with it in a couple more days!

[Maria Caliban]

In a game where the companion's personality, clothing, weapons, and specialization are fixed because they wanted them to be distinct characters and not simply extensions of the players, the idea that their sexual orientation is up to player whim doesn't sit well with me.

But I plan to romance Isabela, who is unabashedly bisexual and not simply into girls because I'm playing one.

[Addai]

SirGladiator wrote...

Its about allowing the players to enjoy the romance, and not defining it for them in a limiting way. 

At the expense of characterization for those particular characters.  And really, it's just a semantics game.  If your response to mHawke's cheesy pickup line is "why, you're a handsome man Hawke, I'll have to think about it"... sorry Fenris, but you're bisexual.  lol

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...
But I plan to romance Isabela, who is unabashedly bisexual and not simply into girls because I'm playing one.

I'm not into the s/s romances, but if in fact this is how it's being implemented, it would make me like the "bi-optional" choices less for this reason.  Which is too bad, since Fenris and Merrill were the characters I was most interested in.

[falconlord5]

Addai67 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its about allowing the players to enjoy the romance, and not defining it for them in a limiting way. 

At the expense of characterization for those particular characters.  And really, it's just a semantics game.  If your response to mHawke's cheesy pickup line is "why, you're a handsome man Hawke, I'll have to think about it"... sorry Fenris, but you're bisexual.  lol

How, exactly, does being Bi lessen characterization? You can form perfectly round characters with any sexuality, or indeed, without touching on any sexuality.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In a game where the companion's personality, clothing, weapons, and specialization are fixed because they wanted them to be distinct characters and not simply extensions of the players, the idea that their sexual orientation is up to player whim doesn't sit well with me.

But I plan to romance Isabela, who is unabashedly bisexual and not simply into girls because I'm playing one.

You'd rather they actually be bisexual? I have no preference. If they wanted to write them all as bisexual Hawkephiles, I'd be fine with that. I'm just as fine with having two them be relative to the PC's gender. All I know is that Mr. Gaider expressed a desire not to write them all as bisexual, preferring the subjective approach. If you can "pin him down" and get him to talk about it, let me know :happy:

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...
Which is so weak.  I think if I were bisexual, I'd be insulted that the writers feel they have to play that game.  Then again, the banners gloating about All Bi suggest that's not how it's being taken, for whatever reason.

=/

As the person who made the banners, let me assure you, they were not created with then intention of gloating, and I fail to see how they could be taken as such... unless 'being happy' equates to gloating now.

To be honest, I haven't seen a single post so far that I would even consider gloating.

Gloating, to me, would be something along the lines of, "LOLOLOL, WE WERE RIGHT AND YOU WERE WRONG, SUCKERS!  NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT NOW!  NEENER NEENER!" and quite frankly, I haven't seen any posts like that.

I've seen posts like this: "Oh!  They're all bi?  Yay!"

... and this: "Oh, they're all bi?  Boo!"

... but gloating?  Haven't seen any of that.

I'm just going to say this once.  I made the banners for fun.  I like making things.  I did not make them to 'lord over' other people, and have said several times, people are allowed to voice their dissatisfaction.

However, I also think people are allowed to voice that they are happy without being equated to 'gloaters'.

Modifié par MorningBird, 06 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Addai]

falconlord5 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its about allowing the players to enjoy the romance, and not defining it for them in a limiting way. 

At the expense of characterization for those particular characters.  And really, it's just a semantics game.  If your response to mHawke's cheesy pickup line is "why, you're a handsome man Hawke, I'll have to think about it"... sorry Fenris, but you're bisexual.  lol

How, exactly, does being Bi lessen characterization? You can form perfectly round characters with any sexuality, or indeed, without touching on any sexuality.

It appears they're being presented as, to borrow someone else's phrase, a "blank slate" whereas the other LIs are not.  So for them it's "hi, I'm your self-service romance, please pick slot or tab and I shall adjust myself accordingly."  And so why not just call them all bisexual?

@Morningbird, oh I definitely think there is a nyah nyah dynamic to some of the posts, no doubt mostly in fun.  However the fact that it's been such a huge deal is one of those forum phenomena I just don't get.  I guess I'm not a big joiner of causes.  Like you still see banners saying "Never Forget 2.1.2011".  Which just makes me think of the movie Borat when he would force people to stop and have a moment of silence for a fake atrocity.  lol

Modifié par Addai67, 06 mars 2011 - 06:15 .

[falconlord5]

Addai67 wrote...

falconlord5 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...

Its about allowing the players to enjoy the romance, and not defining it for them in a limiting way. 

At the expense of characterization for those particular characters.  And really, it's just a semantics game.  If your response to mHawke's cheesy pickup line is "why, you're a handsome man Hawke, I'll have to think about it"... sorry Fenris, but you're bisexual.  lol

How, exactly, does being Bi lessen characterization? You can form perfectly round characters with any sexuality, or indeed, without touching on any sexuality.

It appears they're being presented as, to borrow someone else's phrase, a "blank slate" whereas the other LIs are not.  So for them it's "hi, I'm your self-service romance, please pick slot or tab and I shall adjust myself accordingly."  And so why not just call them all bisexual?

Hardly. They still have their dreams, hopes, personal agendas, friends, enemies, families, personal history.

The sexual preferences are merely... flavour, a way of getting  a character into bed with the PC. Be they straight, gay or Bi.

[MorningBird]

Addai67 wrote...
@Morningbird, oh I definitely think there is a nyah nyah dynamic to some of the posts, no doubt mostly in fun.  However the fact that it's been such a huge deal is one of those forum phenomena I just don't get.  I guess I'm not a big joiner of causes.  Like you still see banners saying "Never Forget 2.1.2011".  Which just makes me think of the movie Borat when he would force people to stop and have a moment of silence for a fake atrocity.  lol

Which is fair enough.  Personally, I don't mind if you don't jump on the 'bandwagon' if it's something that you don't understand, or something you find yourself unable to get behind.  I also don't mind if you disagree, because I believe everyone has a right to their opinion, and a right to voice their opinion.  Plus, concerns that characterization will suffer as a result of all of the LI's being bi is a sound enough argument to my ears.  It's not necessarily one that I agree with, but I understand where it comes from.

I would, of course, prefer it if we could all wait until after the game is out before complaining that the bi romances  are going to 'indefinitely' fall flat, but you can't stop the worrying any more than you can stop the excitement.

I think everyone needs to just stop playing the blame game, and I mean everyone (on both sides.)  People who are worried about the storyline quality are not homophobes, and people who are happy about having more choice (insofar as the romances go) did not bully BioWare into making the change.

The game is almost out.  'Way I see it, we all have an awful lot to be happy about.

[Addai]

falconlord5 wrote...

Hardly. They still have their dreams, hopes, personal agendas, friends, enemies, families, personal history.

The sexual preferences are merely... flavour, a way of getting  a character into bed with the PC. Be they straight, gay or Bi.

Of course I know that sexual history and preferences aren't everything, though to have two of the LIs defined and two of them "pick your flavor"...?  I dunno.  We'll see.

Assuming Merrill's sort of virginal and Fenris has amnesia, it's plausible they wouldn't have much experience, but regardless of that you would know whether you're attracted to women or men or both.  So to obfuscate and say they're not really bisexual seems silly to me- if, in fact, that's what the deal is.  Which we don't know for sure yet.

[halokitty]

I freely admit that I did gloat a bit, and I realize that's not the most mature way to handle things. But my gloating came from a very relieved and happy place. For weeks- even months- I've seen posts saying the implementation of inclusive romances was impossible, that it would ruin everything forever, that it was catering to the minority, and that folks should just shut up and be happy that even one romance is available, but don't you dare touch my heterosexual romance option. Oh, no no no...

The level of discourse when debating fans of the s/s romances has often been decidedly uneven. The folks in favor of all bi struggled to remain positive and upbeat and plead their case for tolerance, inclusion, and understanding. These arguments almost universally dismissed or simply ignored in favor of the more bombastic declarations that inclusion is utterly impossible, game breaking, or just unnecessary. In a game filled with magic, dragons, shape-shifters, desire demons, and dwarves, the presence of multiple bisexual or same sex romances would simply tax player imagination to the breaking point. Immersion would be destroyed, human sacrifices, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

So yes, when it was finally obvious that all-bi was actually happening, I might have made a crack or two about drinking in the tears of the other side. For that, I do apologize, it was extremely childish and unfair. Instead, I want to say how much I love and appreciate Bioware for their efforts to make Dragon Age 2 a powerful game experience that allows for a level of freedom and inclusion that no developer has ever really attempted. If you would have told me ten, even five years ago that a mainstream, RPG video game would integrate multiple same-sex romance possibilities in a way that was thoughtful and, in many ways, unremarkable I would never have believed it. It's pretty amazing and even humbling, and I cannot adequately express my gratitude.

Modifié par halokitty, 06 mars 2011 - 04:13 .