278 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Arthur Cousland wrote...
I was able to bring myself to side with the templars just once out of 5-6 playthroughs, and needless to say, I won't be importing that one to DA3.

You monster.

[eroeru]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


There is a reason why light weapons are allowed, but the heavier the weapons get, the stricter they are controlled. There is also a reason why all nukes are in bunkers with a dozen fail-safes and security checks.

Humans are not instrumental (they are not weapons) - they are living beings, with a whole phenomenology and consciousness to them.

I'm really surprised that there are so many people who actually think siding with the templars is a good thing. Really - not all humans are with the same capabilities, but does this mean people with overwhelming power (be it political, or physical) need be suppressed with treating them purely as by functionality? No. They are first and foremost living (human) beings - and innocent until proven guilty.

Mages aren't a homogenous mass - they won't be allied from their similarity in power alone, if they have ideological differences. And they do have those, in normal circumstances: that's because they are rational beings. So unless there is some severe discrimination (or fallible propaganda), nothing will unite "them".

The cause for the templars vs mages wars is the discrimination and unjust behavior alone. Cause and effect, anyone? (if you remove the cause, you'll not get the effect - this goes by definition alone. Only that we can never take the cause for something unobjective and unspecific - as is the human standpoint/phenomenology - thus the cause isn't mages, it's something in their biology/genes (which can and should be researched, of how to control it without ill effects) and/or ideological/unjust social circumstances)


EDIT: I think this thread was a good read, and well rescurrected for anyone to see - it's particularly welcome after the neverending "you are wrong in your feelings" anti-criticism criticism, and the mostly redundant "original" criticism by the anti-][ crowd.

Modifié par eroeru, 10 avril 2012 - 08:55 .

[Maria Caliban]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Good thing that you weren't born a mage, eh?

Good thing that I wasn't born a unicorn.

[LolaLei]

LOL! You'd have a hell of a job trying to hide that horn. it's a good job unicorns aren't universally feared eh!

[Arthur Cousland]

Just don't sneeze, or Meredith might accuse you of being corrupted.

[schalafi]

It's the old, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question that also applies to the Mage/Templar situation. If the Mages didn't practice blood magic would the Templars be more lenient towards them?, Or if the Templars didn't police every move Mages made, even as Orsino said "every time they sneeze", would the Mages have less cause to resort to blood magic?

It's like Elthina said, Both have flaws, but it's like they are the irresistible force meeting the immovable object. Neither side is willing to change so it's a stalemate. Frankly, I'd be just fine with leaving the whole Mage/Templar situation alone in DA3, and move along to a plot that was less frustrating. If it's in Orlaise there's lots of subject matter there; plots, assassinations, cheese parties, etc. to keep us busy.

[Cultist]

More conflicts - more fun! burn the mages, then burn the templars. Let Tevinter rule supreme!

[Maria Caliban]

schalafi wrote...

It's the old, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question that also applies to the Mage/Templar situation. If the Mages didn't practice blood magic would the Templars be more lenient towards them?

If the Mages didn't practice blood magic, the Templars wouldn't exist.

It's not a chicken and egg question at all. There was no Chantry or Templars previous to the Tevinter Empire and it's blood mage using rulers. Andreste rose up specifically to combat them.

[Huntress]

My Avatar is a Lizard wrote...

Being a mage is probaly genetic so if you sterilize them, then in a few generations there numbers will be greatly reduced.

Sadly is not that simple.. you see magic is in every single people in thedas even families who never had a mage child can have one at any given time because magic is within them, the dwarves got some sort of anti magic shield but whos to say whats going to happen if after many generations of dwarves living in the surface and far away from the stones and lyrium will be able to reverse or get magic back on them?

See if you are going to sterilize is going to have to be at a greater scale than you thought.

[eroeru]

^^ Tevinter as such was a pretty messed up country. But that doesn't justify mass murder.

[Huntress]

eroeru wrote...

^^ Tevinter as such was a pretty messed up country. But that doesn't justify mass murder.

Hmm you know i see tevinters as we now see the romans of old: Roman amphitheaters:considered by many as blood sports and yet  thousands of excited fans watched as human beings engaged in mortal combat,  Killing for pleasure has also been documented among headhunting cultures, in which decapitation was sometimes pursued as a recreational activity.
In that time been a slave wasn't as bad as "spartacus" series portrayed or at least it was not widely used, many slaves were more educated and smarter than their masters and their cost was so high that some people on that time wanted to be slaves themselves but not their families. just as spartacus best friend, he became a slave because of the pay. Were there abuses? yes of course but today we still have abuses, i suppose we can't stop people for being cruel to each other or stop them before they become serial killers.

 Each of our cultures assumes it is in possession of the moral truth but at the end our way of life might look grotesque to many who have come before and many who will come after.

Modifié par Huntress, 10 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[schalafi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

schalafi wrote...

It's the old, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question that also applies to the Mage/Templar situation. If the Mages didn't practice blood magic would the Templars be more lenient towards them?

If the Mages didn't practice blood magic, the Templars wouldn't exist.

It's not a chicken and egg question at all. There was no Chantry or Templars previous to the Tevinter Empire and it's blood mage using rulers. Andreste rose up specifically to combat them.

Hmmm, I didn't know that. Maria as usual you are a font of wisdom in the gaming forums. Thanks.

Modifié par schalafi, 10 avril 2012 - 07:42 .

[eroeru]

@Huntress

That's so very true. A fine analogy.

[Dave of Canada]

I've only sided with the mages one time and that was to see what Orsino would say about Hawke's mother, which wasn't that great. Templar is obviously the superior route, makes far more sense than the mage route and involves killing all those filthy blood mages.

[Fox In The Box]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've only sided with the mages one time and that was to see what Orsino would say about Hawke's mother, which wasn't that great. Templar is obviously the superior route, makes far more sense than the mage route and involves killing all those filthy blood mages.

I shall have you know that all of my blood mages bathed at least once a day.

[Huntress]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've only sided with the mages one time and that was to see what Orsino would say about Hawke's mother, which wasn't that great. Templar is obviously the superior route, makes far more sense than the mage route and involves killing all those filthy blood mages.

Orsino didn't said a thing about Hawke mother. This is what happened.

Orsino gave Quentin books about Necromancy, but it's unclear if he knew that Quentin was killing people.
In the letters you find Orsino sounds very enthusiastic, but before he transforms in the end he says that he
had put Quentin's research aside because he considered it too evil and too dangerous.
This leads me to believe he had no idea the methods Quentin was taking until after you expose Quentin's crimes.
So you could say he was indirectly involved.

Modifié par Huntress, 10 avril 2012 - 09:43 .

[LobselVith8]

Huntress wrote...

Orsino didn't said a thing about Hawke mother. This is what happened.

Orsino gave Quentin books about Necromancy, but it's unclear if he knew that Quentin was killing people.
In the letters you find Orsino sounds very enthusiastic, but before he transforms in the end he says that he
had put Quentin's research aside because he considered it too evil and too dangerous.
This leads me to believe he had no idea the methods Quentin was taking until after you expose Quentin's crimes.
So you could say he was indirectly involved.

Was the plot with Quentin and "O" supposed to make any sense? It was akin to how almost every single mage antagonist was a stupid, insane caricature.

Since Quentin is implied (from Gascard's note) to be from the Circle of Starkhaven, how does he even know "O"? Aside from the mystery of how these two characters knowing each other (which the developers admitted was simply to avoid the mage ending being the "good option"), Quentin's research seemed to be pointless. What was there to be enthusiastic about with Quentin's research? What was the point?

[Knight Commander]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I've only sided with the mages one time and that was to see what Orsino would say about Hawke's mother, which wasn't that great. Templar is obviously the superior route, makes far more sense than the mage route and involves killing all those filthy blood mages.

100% agree with you

Modifié par Knight Commander, 11 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[Sharn01]

I hope in DA3 we travel to Tevinter and its the best place ever to live. Most of the people will be level headed, the slavery will be something done by greedy nobles that most people disagree with but cant do anything about.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It was akin to how almost every single mage antagonist was a stupid, insane caricature.

Yes, it's unfortunate that so many mages don't adhere to your preconceptions. Don't these power-mad, villainous mages know they're supposed to be downtrodden and oppressed? How dare they prove the Chantry's point!

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since Quentin is implied (from Gascard's note) to be from the Circle of Starkhaven, how does he even know "O"?

They were both mages from two relatively close Circle of Magi towers in the Free Marches. It hardly takes a huge leap in logic to conclude that they met through professional avenues — maybe they collaborated on a research project at some point, or met while attending a summit at the College of Magi in Cumberland. Hell, maybe Orsino knew Quentin's wife; it was never established who she was or if she had been a mage.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aside from the mystery of how these two characters knowing each other (which the developers admitted was simply to avoid the mage ending being the "good option"), Quentin's research seemed to be pointless. What was there to be enthusiastic about with Quentin's research? What was the point?

Quentin discovered a way to bring the dead back to life, or at least how to sustain a person's consciousness after death. By all accounts, that was supposed to be impossible. As abhorrent as his methods were, that doesn't underscore the signficance of his achievement.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 13 avril 2012 - 05:32 .

[tankdogg937]

The Imperium will rise again!!!!!

The circles have been broken, the chantry in disarray, and Tevinter stands to gain the most with a vast Mage army rivaling the Darkspawn horde. Blood Mages and demons abound!!! You'll meet your precious Maker soon enough!

Not really but that would be a sensible plot for DAIII. It does make sense. A pretty sizable percentage of the mages will flee to Tevinter given the history. History would repeat itself with another Exalted March.

[keesio74]

Every time I feel bad for the mages and wish them free, I run into some story where a mage got possessed and went nuts. The circle definitely has a place. The trick is to have a circle that is not overly oppressed by the templars/chantry.

And of course anytime I run into some mage from Tevinter, I am reminded of what it would be like if mages were totally free and I don't get a good feeling.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I have a Pride Demon for a patron. He is allergic to the templars. His name is Hubris.

[Chrumpek]

Maria Caliban wrote...

schalafi wrote...

It's the old, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" question that also applies to the Mage/Templar situation. If the Mages didn't practice blood magic would the Templars be more lenient towards them?

If the Mages didn't practice blood magic, the Templars wouldn't exist.

It's not a chicken and egg question at all. There was no Chantry or Templars previous to the Tevinter Empire and it's blood mage using rulers. Andreste rose up specifically to combat them.

Because no mage would use fireballs or other spells against non magic using people? Templars would come anyways, even if there wasn't blood magic, just to keep a watchfull eye over the mages.

Also being a mage player forever, I hated how they were depicted in DA2, that whenever opressed or under preasure, every mage resorts to blood magic, turns into abomination, or let's demon come and help. Was really hard taking their side, when even then they turn on you and go ape **** blood magic...

Modifié par Chrumpek, 14 avril 2012 - 01:26 .