2239 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I mean I like to fix some tragic wreck of a man as much as the next girl, but the option of a guy who is pretty together but just happens to like me a lot would be wonderfully refreshing.

You know there is no such thing

There's also no such thing as well adjusted women who want to be with me.  So join the club

[jamesp81]

Oh yeah, I also support more Varric punching thugs in the face in DA3.

[Mary Kirby]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Every time Bioware writes a "cool best friend" character, everyone seems to want them as an LI. So here's my idea... next game, assign someone to write a cool best friend non LI character... wait for them to finish, and then say "Ok, changing what you've already written as little as possible, make him an LI."

What could possibly go wrong?

Okay, since you asked so nicely, I'll tell you.

(For reference, here. This is worth a read if you have time.

A healthy relationship with a person in the real world has high points and low points, but for the most part, it looks like a straight line. (links to images aren't working, so, meh.)


That's your relationship with Varric. It was constructed this way because he is the game's narrator, and therefore can't be someone you can infuriate to the point that he will leave you, and is hopefully not so infuriating that YOU want to leave HIM. He is a drama-free support character in the story.

This is fine for a relationship. Not for a love story.

Our romances are not real relationships. People sometimes ask why we do not have "normal" romances and dating. It's because those relationships go in a straight line. A love story looks like the graph of Cinderella. 


There is drama. Huge, spikey ups and downs. Have you seen Sleepless in Seattle? There is a  scene when Meg Ryan is writing to Tom Hanks, and Rosie O'Donnell tells her that her problem is that she doesn't want to be in love, she wants to be in love in a movie. A love story does not work like a real romance, except in rare cases. Most of us do not look for the qualities in a real romantic partner that we look for in a fictional romance. A fictional romance requires conflict. 

The extremely tired, but still classic, form is: Boy(or whatever) meets Girl(or whatever), Boy and Girl fall in love, Boy loses Girl, Boy overcomes challenges to be reunited with Girl. This is the Cinderella story. Cinderella's life sucks, she goes to the ball, meets the Prince, it is awesome. Then midnight arrives, she runs away. Her life sucks again. Prince's life also sucks now. Prince has to look at a million smelly feet in order to be reunited with his love. They live happily ever after.

If the story went: Cinderella goes to the ball. Meets Prince. They fall in love. They get married. The story loses... well, any character development for the Prince because he has not faced down all those corns and calluses. Most of the character development for Cinderella because she has not openly defied her stepmother by insisting on trying that shoe on. And all of its tension. It needs that tension in order to be a story. There is a challenge that is overcome. Cinderella's life gets changed. Facing down the obstacle that stands in the way of True Love and overcoming it (or failing to) is what makes the story arc. We, as players, root for the characters to succeed. The drama is what we like in a love story. It is usually not what we like in a relationship.

You can't have that arc without conflict. Something has to stand in the way of love -- emotional scars, or fears of society's reprisals, or a character's own insecurities. Varric would have to have something that made him not immediately get together with Hawke. Which he does not have now, because he was written to be drama-free and supportive. And giving him that drama would make him not the character you know and love. He would be someone else.

Modifié par Mary Kirby, 24 août 2011 - 12:41 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Mary Kirby wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Every time Bioware writes a "cool best friend" character, everyone seems to want them as an LI. So here's my idea... next game, assign someone to write a cool best friend non LI character... wait for them to finish, and then say "Ok, changing what you've already written as little as possible, make him an LI."

What could possibly go wrong?

Okay, since you asked so nicely, I'll tell you.

(For reference, here. This is worth a read if you have time.

A healthy relationship with a person in the real world has high points and low points, but for the most part, it looks like a straight line. (links to images aren't working, so, meh.)


That's your relationship with Varric. It was constructed this way because he is the game's narrator, and therefore can't be someone you can infuriate to the point that he will leave you, and is hopefully not so infuriating that YOU want to leave HIM. He is a drama-free support character in the story.

This is fine for a relationship. Not for a love story.

Our romances are not real relationships. People sometimes ask why we do not have "normal" romances and dating. It's because those relationships go in a straight line. A love story looks like the graph of Cinderella. 

I'm curious as to why there couldn't be more drama injected into Varric's story, though. I totally agree that there has to be drama for a love story. What I don't get is why the drama has to come from the relationship between Varric and the player. Couldn't it easily be Varric and Hawke taking on external factors together? Or are you saying that adding this drama would make it impossible for him to not be infuriating or infuriated? That doesn't seem quite right to me. 

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 24 août 2011 - 01:24 .

[Dave of Canada]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Varric would have to have something that made him not immediately get together with Hawke.

His love for cute dwarf serving girls!

Though honestly, very insightful.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 24 août 2011 - 01:30 .

[Mary Kirby]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm curious as to why there couldn't be more drama injected into Varric's story, though. I totally agree that there has to be drama for a love story. What I don't get is why the drama has to come from the relationship between Varric and the player. Couldn't it easily be Varric and Hawke taking on external factors together? Or are you saying that adding this drama would make it impossible for him to not be infuriating or infuriated? That doesn't seem quite right to me. 

No. The drama has to be why they can't be together. That's the crux of a love story, and where the tension comes from. Cinderella can't be with the prince because of social station, and because he does not know her identity. Darcy can't be with Elizabeth because of social station and because she thinks he is the biggest jerk in the universe. Romeo can't be with Juliette because their families don't approve. Buttercup can't be with Westley because he is murdered by pirates. In just about every 80s movie ever, the girl and boy can't be together because one of them is uselessly pursuing someone else who is totally wrong for them.

So there needs to be an impediment standing between Hawke and Varric. Overcoming the external factors together is what makes your party your party and your friends your friends. In a romance, there has to be an actual conflict to overcome that keeps them from a) recognizing their feelings for one another or acting on their feelings or c) all of the above for romantic tension to exist in the story.

Because of the nature of follower characters, the drama can't come from, actually being separated like Westley and Buttercup or Cinderella and Charming Boy. They are your followers, they are available for slaying whatever whenever you need them. The drama has to be closer to Darcy and Elizabeth, or 80s movie, where the obstacle to be overcome is personal -- prejudice, insecurity, habit, fears of social disapproval. A romance has to be able to function around and within the rest of regular game play. 

Varric, as written, does not care in the slightest about the approval of dwarven society, and is largely lacking in prejudice, so what's keeping him and Hawke apart? This is where he would need to have some major revision to his character. He would need an insecurity or a conflict with Hawke that would keep them from being together.

[mesmerizedish]

Bianca would be jealous?

Granted we as players and fans don't know her significance, but you do (I'm sure).

Not that I'm fighting for a Varric romance XD Just interested in the discussion

[Mary Kirby]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Bianca would be jealous?

Granted we as players and fans don't know her significance, but you do (I'm sure).

Not that I'm fighting for a Varric romance XD Just interested in the discussion

Well, that is where it gets tricky, yeah. 

Is he pining for a past love? (Maker, do you really want to go that route again?) Is he trying to fulfil his family obligations and marry a proper Merchant Guild lady like he's supposed to? Is he insecure about being a dwarf in a relationship with a human? I can definitely come up with a conflict that would work.

The point is that none of that is there now. It would have to be added, and it would have to be added in such a way that it adds considerable tension and complication to the dynamic he has with Hawke. It would be an entirely different relationship -- not the one you have now, plus a kissing scene. 

Would you still love him, if he were pining for a past girlfriend? Or so tangled up in the politics of surface dwarf society that they really mattered to him? Or super conscious about race or social class? Or deeply insecure about being a dwarf?

Maybe you would. Maybe you wouldn't. He might still be a loveable character, but he would be a different one than the easy-going, slightly mother-hen-ish, politically neutral rogue you know now.

[mesmerizedish]

I completely agree, and all of that makes a lot of sense.

But would it change the character for a player who doesn't pursue a romance?

I think the situation ends up being that the relationship and the character only change for players who want them to change. But, and I get the sense that this is part of what you're saying, do those players know what they're asking for?

Honestly, I'd rather see an Aveline romance than a Varric one. Donnic's ready-made conflict. The PC having to compete for an LI's affection! Yay!

But I understand that more people probably like Varric, so romancing him would seemingly be popular. But if it were done in such a way that changes the character in a way people don't like, then it doesn't matter so much how well-done it is. Look at Anders. I think that character and that romance are amazingly written, but what did we hear immediately after launch? "DAII ruined Anders! QQ!"

Bleh. You have a really tough job, Ms. Kirby!

[ipgd]

Why can't Hawke just have a Varric realdoll?

[hoorayforicecream]

Mary Kirby wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'm curious as to why there couldn't be more drama injected into Varric's story, though. I totally agree that there has to be drama for a love story. What I don't get is why the drama has to come from the relationship between Varric and the player. Couldn't it easily be Varric and Hawke taking on external factors together? Or are you saying that adding this drama would make it impossible for him to not be infuriating or infuriated? That doesn't seem quite right to me. 

No. The drama has to be why they can't be together. That's the crux of a love story, and where the tension comes from. Cinderella can't be with the prince because of social station, and because he does not know her identity. Darcy can't be with Elizabeth because of social station and because she thinks he is the biggest jerk in the universe. Romeo can't be with Juliette because their families don't approve. Buttercup can't be with Westley because he is murdered by pirates. In just about every 80s movie ever, the girl and boy can't be together because one of them is uselessly pursuing someone else who is totally wrong for them.

So there needs to be an impediment standing between Hawke and Varric. Overcoming the external factors together is what makes your party your party and your friends your friends. In a romance, there has to be an actual conflict to overcome that keeps them from a) recognizing their feelings for one another or acting on their feelings or c) all of the above for romantic tension to exist in the story.

Because of the nature of follower characters, the drama can't come from, actually being separated like Westley and Buttercup or Cinderella and Charming Boy. They are your followers, they are available for slaying whatever whenever you need them. The drama has to be closer to Darcy and Elizabeth, or 80s movie, where the obstacle to be overcome is personal -- prejudice, insecurity, habit, fears of social disapproval. A romance has to be able to function around and within the rest of regular game play. 

Varric, as written, does not care in the slightest about the approval of dwarven society, and is largely lacking in prejudice, so what's keeping him and Hawke apart? This is where he would need to have some major revision to his character. He would need an insecurity or a conflict with Hawke that would keep them from being together.

What you say makes sense, but I'm reminded of other stories where the goal isn't about the *getting* together part, but the *staying* together part. For example, look at Spider-Man and Mary Jane (prior to the magical marriage annulment). For the better part of a decade (or longer? the actual length of time escapes me), Spider-Man and Mary Jane were married and more or less devoted to each other. Sure, sometimes she'd get kidnapped by the Green Goblin, or she'd have issues with his being Spider-man, or there would be something else - they'd get thrown into a portal and go back in time and have to survive dinosaurs or something. But the drama didn't necessarily come from being unsure if they'd get together, it was from the external factors because they *were* together. There are similar stories about Lois Lane and Superman. Is there a reason why such stories wouldn't work within the context of Dragon Age?

Edit: I realize this would change Varric's dynamic... which I guess was what you were saying at the beginning. He'd be different than he is now. But I still don't see why, in such a situation, he could not remain a politically neutral, slightly mother hen-ish dwarven rogue. He'd still be (mostly) the same lovable scoundrel. And I'm talking from a purely hypothetical perspective; I know all about development scheduling and requirements. This is a thought experiment.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 24 août 2011 - 02:35 .

[mesmerizedish]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

What you say makes sense, but I'm reminded of other stories where the goal isn't about the *getting* together part, but the *staying* together part. For example, look at Spider-Man and Mary Jane (prior to the magical marriage annulment). For the better part of a decade (or longer? the actual length of time escapes me), Spider-Man and Mary Jane were married and more or less devoted to each other. Sure, sometimes she'd get kidnapped by the Green Goblin, or she'd have issues with his being Spider-man, or there would be something else - they'd get thrown into a portal and go back in time and have to survive dinosaurs or something. But the drama didn't necessarily come from being unsure if they'd get together, it was from the external factors because they *were* together. There are similar stories about Lois Lane and Superman. Is there a reason why such stories wouldn't work within the context of Dragon Age?

Because in those cases, the romance and the tension therein aren't the focus of the plot. An "us against the world!" plot with a LI would be great, I think, but it wouldn't really be a romance plot. It would just be a friend/follower/companion plot plus some behind-the-scenes sexy!tiems.

[hoorayforicecream]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Because in those cases, the romance and the tension therein aren't the focus of the plot. An "us against the world!" plot with a LI would be great, I think, but it wouldn't really be a romance plot. It would just be a friend/follower/companion plot plus some behind-the-scenes sexy!tiems.

But that should be fine anyway, because it's not an enclosed story on its own. It doesn't have to be, because it's existing within a greater context which is practically guaranteed to be ripe for an "us against the world" plot. That's quite literally what I expect from an RPG. Any romance in Dragon Age isn't going to be a plot, it's going to be a subplot at best, and that's perfectly fine. So why not take it for all it's worth and run with it as such?

[mesmerizedish]

You're missing the point. What you're asking for is fine, but it's not a romance.

[Mary Kirby]

hoorayforicecream wrote...


What you say makes sense, but I'm reminded of other stories where the goal isn't about the *getting* together part, but the *staying* together part. For example, look at Spider-Man and Mary Jane (prior to the magical marriage annulment). For the better part of a decade (or longer? the actual length of time escapes me), Spider-Man and Mary Jane were married and more or less devoted to each other. Sure, sometimes she'd get kidnapped by the Green Goblin, or she'd have issues with his being Spider-man, or there would be something else - they'd get thrown into a portal and go back in time and have to survive dinosaurs or something. But the drama didn't necessarily come from being unsure if they'd get together, it was from the external factors because they *were* together. There are similar stories about Lois Lane and Superman. Is there a reason why such stories wouldn't work within the context of Dragon Age?

Edit: I realize this would change Varric's dynamic... which I guess was what you were saying at the beginning. He'd be different than he is now. But I still don't see why, in such a situation, he could not remain a politically neutral, slightly mother hen-ish dwarven rogue. He'd still be (mostly) the same lovable scoundrel. And I'm talking from a purely hypothetical perspective; I know all about development scheduling and requirements. This is a thought experiment.

The conflic in those cases is not external. The conflict is the threat that their relationship won't last. Because MJ is tired of spending her nights worrying about Peter getting killed by crazed supervillains. Or because he is so busy with web-slinging that she feels abandoned and neglected. (and sometimes they actually separate and get back together.) I can't make that be a conflict with Varric because he can't leave the party. It's also pretty challenging to draft that in a Bioware game because all the threat of the relationship failing falls on the NPC. I can't force Hawke to feel that it is best if they break up. I can make that a choice, but I can't force you to take it, so it really can't be a source of drama and tension. I don't get to decide how Hawke feels. At best, this could be the Alistair-post-Landsmeet drama of being dumped due to the demands of some external plot related thing.

And remember that with Spidey and MJ, or Lois and Clark, there was an initial conflict of "I like someone else/I don't realize that it is you I love" that stood in the way of the couple getting together in the first place. (And Spidey has a dead girlfriend in the equation, too.) This is the dynamic of putting drama and tension into an already established romance story. We, as the audience, already know what the drama was that kept them apart before, and that they overcame it, and now, in order for the love story to continue to be a story, they need new challenges to overcome. You haven't had that with Varric.

[hoorayforicecream]

Mary Kirby wrote...

The conflic in those cases is not external. The conflict is the threat that their relationship won't last. Because MJ is tired of spending her nights worrying about Peter getting killed by crazed supervillains. Or because he is so busy with web-slinging that she feels abandoned and neglected. (and sometimes they actually separate and get back together.) I can't make that be a conflict with Varric because he can't leave the party. It's also pretty challenging to draft that in a Bioware game because all the threat of the relationship failing falls on the NPC. I can't force Hawke to feel that it is best if they break up. I can make that a choice, but I can't force you to take it, so it really can't be a source of drama and tension. I don't get to decide how Hawke feels. At best, this could be the Alistair-post-Landsmeet drama of being dumped due to the demands of some external plot related thing.

And remember that with Spidey and MJ, or Lois and Clark, there was an initial conflict of "I like someone else/I don't realize that it is you I love" that stood in the way of the couple getting together in the first place. (And Spidey has a dead girlfriend in the equation, too.) This is the dynamic of putting drama and tension into an already established romance story. We, as the audience, already know what the drama was that kept them apart before, and that they overcame it, and now, in order for the love story to continue to be a story, they need new challenges to overcome. You haven't had that with Varric.

I agree that a romance story has to have that sort of conflict and such, but I'm looking at it as more of a bigger-picture thing here. I can understand the requirements of a self-contained romance story, and yeah... what I'm suggesting sure wouldn't be one by any stretch. It still makes me wonder, though, because I see games like Uncharted 2, or movies like Terminator or Raiders of the Lost Ark, where it isn't necessarily a romance story, but there are still romantic relationships built into it, and I think about how that sort of dynamic would work. I mean... nobody would ever say that Dragon Age or Mass Effect are romance stories. They have romantic subplots, which is a different beast entirely. The litmus test sure doesn't have to be "what if he leaves", does it? I mean... at no point does Merrill's romance cause her to leave, right? Going back to Vonnegut's diagram, we could do something like this:



Then make the character a captive audience. A lot of adventure love stories start by two people who can't stand each other thrown together, but are forced to stay together for survival, and ultimately come to an understanding and even love. As long as the first part isn't quite so harsh, and the 'forced to be together and survive' comes in around the midpoint at earliest, it isn't so bad, is it?

Besides, just because there's the *threat* of them separating doesn't mean they *have* to separate, right? The player doesn't know that Varric has to stay in the party no matter what. He can even get kidnapped during "Best Served Cold". As long as you give him sufficient motivation to stay (e.g. Varric and Hawke each have half of a macguffin that is needed to do something super special, and they'll be constantly attacked by the bad guys unless they both bring it to the prophesied place at the right time, and so they need to stay together to survive), it can work and draw upon all those rich possibilities of the sexual tension-laced conversations and romantic bickering.  Given that this sort of thing doesn't seem far-fetched at all within the context of Thedas, couldn't this still satisfy all of the requirements?

PS. Purely in thought experiment territory here. I just find this discussion interesting.

Edit: Now that I think about it, what I'm describing is sounding an awful lot like the Alistair romance, minus the landsmeet.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 24 août 2011 - 03:42 .

[Mary Kirby]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Then make the character a captive audience. A lot of adventure love stories start by two people who can't stand each other thrown together, but are forced to stay together for survival, and ultimately come to an understanding and even love. As long as the first part isn't quite so harsh, and the 'forced to be together and survive' comes in around the midpoint at earliest, it isn't so bad, is it?

For a Bioware game, "two people who can't stand each other" doesn't work. Because we don't control whether or not Hawke/Shepard/Warden/etc. can't stand an NPC. How the player feels is never up to the writer or the story. We can only choose how the NPC feels. So this becomes, "NPC hates the player, but for some reason has to put up with them, and eventually comes to an understanding." Since it is one-sided, it loses a lot of its appeal. Especially because we have to start out making a romanceable NPC as unlikeable as possible, which... yeah, frequently doesn't make anyone ever want to romance them.

it can work and draw upon all those rich possibilities of the sexual tension-laced conversations and romantic bickering.  Given that this sort of thing doesn't seem far-fetched at all within the context of Thedas, couldn't this still satisfy all of the requirements?

The sexual tension comes, again, from wanting to be together, but not being together. Why is this the case? What is stopping them from being together? Without that, there is no sexual tension, and it's just bickering. That's less romantic and just... confrontational.

Those sorts of romances work beautifully. In games that we don't make. You can have this sort of love story in Uncharted, because how Nathan Drake feels is never a factor that is within player control. This gives Uncharted a lot more options in how to craft his relationships. Their writers can make him fall in love, be wrong about someone, feel jealous, feel betrayed -- we can't do that to Hawke. We can try. But how Hawke feels is ultimately up to you and that makes crafting a love story significantly more challenging.

[Sepewrath]

This was great insight into how you folks at BW come up with these things and thinking back on all the relationships, I can see where this comes from. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing you guys tackle an Uncharted like story, I think your held back at times because you allow player choice.

A scene as emotional as it could be, a situation isn't as nerve wracking as it could be. I think back to Uncharted 2 and you see a moment where Drake, this guy who has escaped impossible situations, with nary a scratch and a smile on his face, you finally pull back the curtain on him, to see whats under all that bravado. If you can make choices in that spot, you lose all of that. The closest thing I can think of to that kind of situation is All that Remains. This info gives me more appreciation for not just being able to pull Justice out of Anders or get Merrill to stop trying to fix the mirror.

Maybe this isn't the place to ask this, but is the reason you decided to not go forward with Aveline, because conflict with her was solely dependent upon your Hawkes behavior? And the only drama you could have is the cliche competition with the live guy or the dead guy lol?

[hoorayforicecream]

Sepewrath wrote...

Maybe this isn't the place to ask this, but is the reason you decided to not go forward with Aveline, because conflict with her was solely dependent upon your Hawkes behavior? And the only drama you could have is the cliche competition with the live guy or the dead guy lol?

I'm pretty sure that there were too many variables with Aveline to handle a romance on top of her situation given the time they had for development. Aveline can become captain or not and can become interested in and marry Donnic or not on top of the usual friend/rivalry differences. That's a lot of possible combinations, compared to the other love interests.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Especially because we have to start out making a romanceable NPC as unlikeable as possible, which... yeah, frequently doesn't make anyone ever want to romance them.

The Velannamancer in me begs to differ.

I too am a Velannamancer. I demand a Velannamance! Please?

[Nyreen]

If not Varric, WHEN WILL WE SEE A ROMANCE WITH HUMOR AND LEVITY?? I'm sick of this teen angst, bipolar wine-o's, bleached hair, and shoeless-ness. Seriously, at least Zevran and Alistair made me laugh!

[Dave of Canada]

Mary Kirby wrote...

Because of the nature of follower characters, the drama can't come from, actually being separated like Westley and Buttercup or Cinderella and Charming Boy. They are your followers, they are available for slaying whatever whenever you need them. The drama has to be closer to Darcy and Elizabeth, or 80s movie, where the obstacle to be overcome is personal -- prejudice, insecurity, habit, fears of social disapproval. A romance has to be able to function around and within the rest of regular game play. 

Speaking hypothetically, assuming this conversation has yet to come to a close, could this romance of being seperated from your lover work if this was a non-follower romance (Not Varric, just a hypothetical NPC in general)? The recent conversation has opened my eyes to a lot of things you as writers have to face, though I'm just curious what obstacles would present themselves with a non-follower romance which people often bring up and if you could deviate from the norm with this.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 25 août 2011 - 01:15 .

[jamesp81]

Celestina wrote...

If not Varric, WHEN WILL WE SEE A ROMANCE WITH HUMOR AND LEVITY?? I'm sick of this teen angst, bipolar wine-o's, bleached hair, and shoeless-ness. Seriously, at least Zevran and Alistair made me laugh!

Alistair is a humorous romance for female characters, but I admit I wouldn't mind a humorous female LI for male characters.

[Nyreen]

jamesp81 wrote...

Celestina wrote...

If not Varric, WHEN WILL WE SEE A ROMANCE WITH HUMOR AND LEVITY?? I'm sick of this teen angst, bipolar wine-o's, bleached hair, and shoeless-ness. Seriously, at least Zevran and Alistair made me laugh!

Alistair is a humorous romance for female characters, but I admit I wouldn't mind a humorous female LI for male characters.

Hmm, I suppose you could count Isabela. Personally I found her more of a selfish and (canonically) disease-ridden thing, but she does have a sharp tongue. Regardless, I agree that humorous lady LI's are lacking in Thedas.