338 réponses à ce sujet

[jeffnindo4281]

"Give to every human being every right that you claim for yourself."

-Robert Green Ingersoll

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...
Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there.

If it's "neither here nor there," then why did you mention it? 

[mesmerizedish]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Interestingly enough I'm writing a book roughly about that subject, but that's neither here nor there.

If it's "neither here nor there," then why did you mention it? 

Because it's interesting enough. We know this because he says it is. I guess we'll just take his word for it? 

[Albatroz]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

"Give to every human being every right that you claim for yourself."
-Robert Green Ingersoll

“Peace demands the most heroic labor
and the most difficult sacrifice. It demands greater heroism than war. It
demands greater fidelity to the truth and a much more perfect purity of
conscience.” -Thomas Merton

“Those things
which are precious are saved only by sacrifice.” – David Kenyon
Webster

“In protecting oneself, others are protected; In protecting others,
oneself is protected.” – The Buddha

“It is a
clear gain to sacrifice pleasure in order to avoid pain.” - Arthur
Schopenhauer

“Sacrifice still exists
everywhere, and everywhere the elect of each generation suffers for the
salvation of the rest.” – Henri Frederic Amiel

I can look up relevant quotes too. The mages make a sacrifice for the greater good of the entirety of Thedas. It's not an act of cruelty, it's an act of necessity by the Chantry.

[Taleroth]

It's not a sacrifice unless you're choosing to make that sacrifice yourself.  When the chantry decides to lock themselves up, then you can enoble them.

When you choose it for others, it's murder, theft, and slavery.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 février 2011 - 01:54 .

[jeffnindo4281]

Indeed. What is heroic about forcing others to 'sacrifice' for what you perceive as the greater good?

[Zanallen]

Really though, do we need another thread about this? Aren't there 50 bajillion already? That being said, could the chantry loosen its grip a bit? Sure. However, freeing the mages completely is just idiotic and asking for trouble. And I love when people bring up Rivain and other countries that we know next to nothing about. It really goes far to prove their point.

[Silvanend]

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

[jeffnindo4281]

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

This line of thinking reminds me very much of the Assyrian Empire. An ancient civilization, they sought to impose their brand of order 'for the greater good' as they saw it. They saw their brutality, the details of which I won't go into here, was a tool to keep order and allow their civilization to keep other 'barbarian' factions in check and prevent other powers from rising. Nineveh, their capital city, stood as an power for millenia.

When rival powers finally banded together against their relentless tyranny and sacked it, no one was sorry to see them go.

[Generic Guy]

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

[jeffnindo4281]

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

[Vicious]

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white.

That IMO was a failure of the game. The fact that there was 90% of the time a clear 'good' path that could be followed. About the only time the game showed some spine was in Orzammar.



For instance



There is zero reason to kill Conner unless you are an evil jerk, but the dialogue that leads up to that in which you speak to Conner and his raving mother is one of the most powerful moments of the game.



And it is completely unnecessary, because there is a 100% solve everything everyone lives happily ever after way to solve it, and it's pretty much in plain sight and has zero consequences.



Definetly a failure of the game.

[Generic Guy]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

I would think the more anti-chantry players would love destroying one of its holy relics. Yes some of the quests had good vs. bad options, but the chantry and the mages is not one of them. That’s an issue where neither party are doing the “right” thing, just the least bad for their side.

[jeffnindo4281]

Vicious wrote...

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white.

That IMO was a failure of the game. The fact that there was 90% of the time a clear 'good' path that could be followed. About the only time the game showed some spine was in Orzammar.

For instance

There is zero reason to kill Conner unless you are an evil jerk, but the dialogue that leads up to that in which you speak to Conner and his raving mother is one of the most powerful moments of the game.

And it is completely unnecessary, because there is a 100% solve everything everyone lives happily ever after way to solve it, and it's pretty much in plain sight and has zero consequences.

Definetly a failure of the game.

Good point. It is a videogame, not a manifesto

[jeffnindo4281]

Generic Guy wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

I would think the more anti-chantry players would love destroying one of its holy relics. Yes some of the quests had good vs. bad options, but the chantry and the mages is not one of them. That’s an issue where neither party are doing the “right” thing, just the least bad for their side.

Why should those who see the Chantry's rule for what it is relish such an act? Surely you're not suggesting that only those loyal to the Chantry are cabable of moral goodness?

[Overlord Zakaru]

Free Mages does NOT = the Tevinter Imperium.  The Tevinter Imperium was ruled by tyrannical mages yes, however any mage is the exact same as any human or elf, but with magical abilities.  Having magic does not instantly mean you'd go on a slaughter spree and enslave everyone around you.  You have the same mind and personality.  

Like in real life, if you were the only one in a town who had a gun, or sword, or a lethal weapon would you instantly want to use it to take over the town and rule as a cruel lord?  Magic is like a tool.  Does the tool decide if you hurt someone?  Is it being able to use magic instantly mean you'll kill and/or enslave everyone around you?  Everyone is capable of great good and evil, you decide how to use that power.

[Albatroz]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Indeed. What is heroic about forcing others to 'sacrifice' for what you perceive as the greater good?

It's a sacrifice the people in their position have to make in order to for the rest of the nation to live safely. Remember, sometimes sacrafice isn't a choice. Sometimes its the only option. Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas. They don't have to sacrifice living a good life, or a happy life, just one seperate from the non-mages. And this sacrfifce ultimately leads to the nations implementing a Circel Tower being a safer place, where abominations and blood mages are a couple things the average man and woman don't have to worry about on a daily basis.

[Riona45]

Silvanend wrote...

Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising.

You don't know that.

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...
Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas.

That's one of the most ridiculous, trivializing statements I've read here (and that's saying something, considering some of the people who post on this topic regularly).  You are conflating your vaguely defined experiences as the child of single mother with what is essentially life-long house arrest and dehumanization.  You honestly think that's a valid comparison?

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 03:27 .

[Albatroz]

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

Free Mages does NOT = the Tevinter Imperium.  The Tevinter Imperium was ruled by tyrannical mages yes, however any mage is the exact same as any human or elf, but with magical abilities.  Having magic does not instantly mean you'd go on a slaughter spree and enslave everyone around you.  You have the same mind and personality.  

Like in real life, if you were the only one in a town who had a gun, or sword, or a lethal weapon would you instantly want to use it to take over the town and rule as a cruel lord?  Magic is like a tool.  Does the tool decide if you hurt someone?  Is it being able to use magic instantly mean you'll kill and/or enslave everyone around you?  Everyone is capable of great good and evil, you decide how to use that power.

No, but being a mage is a being a conduit to the Fade, which also means potentially becoming a mindless killing machine at virtually any moment because you used your tool incorrectly. Having a mage around is inherently dangerous to the people near by. Having an inexperienced, uneducated, or just plain malicious mage around is even more dangerous. View all mages as time bombs with a question mark on the timer. Some mages may never turn, some may turn the first time they ever try to do magic (Connor). But it is always a realistic possibility for the vast majority of mages. So even if a mage isn't evil they could still turn into an abomination and prove to be a threat (Anders). If their kept under watch they can still live happy lives and in case something happens (which it inevitably will) the Templars are able to quickly and efficiently take care of it with minimal damage. If things get too out of hand a la Broken Circle, the Rite of Annulment offers a final solution.

[jeffnindo4281]

The RustMonster wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Indeed. What is heroic about forcing others to 'sacrifice' for what you perceive as the greater good?

It's a sacrifice the people in their position have to make in order to for the rest of the nation to live safely. Remember, sometimes sacrafice isn't a choice. Sometimes its the only option. Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas. They don't have to sacrifice living a good life, or a happy life, just one seperate from the non-mages. And this sacrfifce ultimately leads to the nations implementing a Circel Tower being a safer place, where abominations and blood mages are a couple things the average man and woman don't have to worry about on a daily basis.

First, and I should've said this from the get go, I only just got over a fever so take anything I have to say with a grain of lyrium heh.

Second, nations rise and fall throughout history. People build upon the good ideas and expunge the bad.

Third, banning knowledge (of blood magic) only leads to unmitigated curiosity in unsupervised conditions by those not trained to take proper precautions. The decision not to study the nature of blood magic (the physiology that might explain the properties of the sacred ashes?) leads to demonising of practitioners outright. And who wouldnt lash out at a society that shuns them? Basic human, elf, but not dwarf in this case, trait.

Seperate but equal has been tried too..

I'm all for a circle tower as a place of learning and enlightenment. With the free sharing of knowledge and tutors able to communicate it, the sword of the templars is unwarranted. Wynne was my favorite character in Origins:)

Growing up as you did of course will shape who you are to a great extent. But it'll also skew your perspective. That's why I find it more interesting to have dialogue with those I disagree with, that I might learn something I wouldn't have otherwise.

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas.

That's one of the most ridiculous, trivializing statements I've read here (and that's saying something, considering some of the people who post on this topic regularly).  You are conflating your vaguely defined experiences as the child of single mother with what is essentially life-long house arrest and dehumanization.  You honestly think that's a valid comparison?

Look, it was just an analogy, and it's late in my time zone. If you don't think it's a good comparison, fine by me. But the comparison still stands as 2 different kinds of people who are forced to make sacrifices and live lives some people might not consider "fair" just because of who they are.

Additionally, mages are not dehumanized. In fact, most mages probably live a more comfortable life than the average Ferelden. And as I keep reminding people, but no one seems to consider it a valid point, if a mage is deemed responsible enough they are allowed to leave the tower. Mages do not live a bad life in the tower. They are not beaten or abused. They are allowed to go about their business and lead happy lives. They're confined as a precaution, not as a punishment, and most of them really don't seem to care too much about it.

[Heyheygatfat]

I get where you are coming from, but unlike Anders, I can see the reason for the Chantry and it's military arms existence. When you have tons of mages in the world that must pass their training and you have a risk of them becoming abominations, turning into evil villains, or becoming bombs then security must be taken- jus. Like in real life. I understand that the Templars, who seem to be airheads need to be reformed, but to do away with them would be nonsense against the threat of rogue apostates who like killing people.

[jeffnindo4281]

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.