338 réponses à ce sujet

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising.

You don't know that.

And YOU don't know that it won't. It's a precaution to prevent something they know has happened before in the situation they were in. With free mages, the Chantry is taking a chance on the safety of the populace. With mages under Templar supervision, the Chantry can all but guarantee the safety of the populace. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, even in the cases of mages.

[Overlord Zakaru]

This entire debate is filled with what ifs, maybes, and chances.  No one can say what will happen if mages were free, what they'd do.  It's impossable to predict what would happen, but we can't automaticlly assume one thing or another as it's random.

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...
And YOU don't know that it won't.

No, but I'm not the one making pompous declarations and unproven assertions (like YOU!).

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 04:00 .

[Riona45]

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

This entire debate is filled with what ifs, maybes, and chances.  No one can say what will happen if mages were free, what they'd do.  It's impossable to predict what would happen, but we can't automaticlly assume one thing or another as it's random.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's random.

[JJDrakken]

Ok mages, I give you a choice Chantry rule or Geth rule?




JJ

[Albatroz]

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
And YOU don't know that it won't.

No, but I'm not the one making pompous declarations and unproven assertions (like YOU!).

Except it's not an unproven assertion. DAO proved to us that demon possessions happen, and that abominations are extremely dangerous. A little boy with next to no magical training is capable of destroying an entire village because he became an abomination. Taking precautionary measures helps everyone out in the long run, even if it doesn't seem fair at the time.

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

This entire debate is filled with what ifs, maybes, and chances.  No one can say what will happen if mages were free, what they'd do.  It's impossable to predict what would happen, but we can't automaticlly assume one thing or another as it's random.

Yes, because it's all about chances. The purpose behind the confinement of the mages is to prevent risks. So that when those "what ifs" do happen, they're kept under control with minimal collateral damage. If the same "what if" happened outside the tower, it would be a whole lot worse than what would happen inside.

Modifié par The RustMonster, 16 février 2011 - 04:04 .

[White_Buffalo94]

I agree with this post. Down with the Chantry! Death to the templars!

[jeffnindo4281]

The RustMonster wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
And YOU don't know that it won't.

No, but I'm not the one making pompous declarations and unproven assertions (like YOU!).

Except it's not an unproven assertion. DAO proved to us that demon possessions happen, and that abominations are extremely dangerous. A little boy with next to no magical training is capable of destroying an entire village because he became an abomination. Taking precautionary measures helps everyone out in the long run, even if it doesn't seem fair at the time.

Overlord Zakaru wrote...

This entire debate is filled with what ifs, maybes, and chances.  No one can say what will happen if mages were free, what they'd do.  It's impossable to predict what would happen, but we can't automaticlly assume one thing or another as it's random.

Yes, because it's all about chances. The purpose behind the confinement of the mages is to prevent risks. So that when those "what ifs" do happen, they're kept under control with minimal collateral damage. If the same "what if" happened outside the tower, it would be a whole lot worse than what would happen inside.

DOA also proved that a circle under the Templars' thumb is far from secure. Freedom is always too high a price to pay for the illusion of security.

[Albatroz]

I know this is off topic, but I do just want to say real quick that I appreciate the good debate. I feel like we're all representing our points fairly, smartly, and eloquently and no one's had to resort to personal attacks to do so. Thanks everybody!

[HolyAvenger]

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

[Albatroz]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

DOA also proved that a circle under the Templars' thumb is far from secure. Freedom is always too high a price to pay for the illusion of security.

The Templars may have been ill prepared for the size of the attack in Broken Circle, but they were still able to keep things under contained. With reinforcements and the Rite of Anullment, they could have sucessfully cleansed the tower and resecured the safety of the majority of Ferelden from blood mages and abominations.

[Reaverwind]

Burayan_Koga wrote...

(edit)

It's time for the Templar Order to disband and give the regions full authority to themselves without the Chantry interfering with people's lives! If they won't let go of their grip over the people then we should throw them out on their asses!

Not going to happend without breaking up the Chantry. It's high time for a Reformation.

[Albatroz]

HolyAvenger wrote...

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

Yes, but this seems to be the only part of that's actually debate worthy, at least IRL. I'd love to have an in character debate about whether or not the Chantry is the true way to view the world, but BSN is not the place to do that.

[Overlord Zakaru]

Hopefully in DAII we can confront these issues more head on.

[jeffnindo4281]

The RustMonster wrote...

I know this is off topic, but I do just want to say real quick that I appreciate the good debate. I feel like we're all representing our points fairly, smartly, and eloquently and no one's had to resort to personal attacks to do so. Thanks everybody!

Yes, this has been a most enjoyable exercise. A great way to spend time until the Demo is out!

[Morroian]

The RustMonster wrote...

Except it's not an unproven assertion. DAO proved to us that demon possessions happen, and that abominations are extremely dangerous. A little boy with next to no magical training is capable of destroying an entire village because he became an abomination. Taking precautionary measures helps everyone out in the long run, even if it doesn't seem fair at the time.

Except there is some proof in the game and lore. Rivain where mages consort with spirits freely. The Dalish.Haven. ALl groups that have mages and aren't overrun by abominations. 

[moilami]

The RustMonster wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

I still fail to see how the Chantry is "evil." Despite popular belief here, it's not an undeniable fact. Whether or not their treatment of mages is "totalitarian" is up for debate. I think something that most people forget is that most mages we've talked to feel eitehr apathetic or positive to the Chantry's prescence. If people are upset about the Exalted Marches treating the Dalish and Qunari poorly, I'm pretty sure the Qunari have started holy wars themselves. As for the Dalish, while I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure that they probably would have attacked the humans eventually if the Chantry hadn't done so first. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, it's about who did it first. 

1. Spiritual blackmail - the maker is disappointed in mankind, men deserve to be left in the dark after Andraste was burned at the stake (by a few men)
2. Moral superiority - The chantry is, of course, the only "correct" religion. Others have to be destroyed in Exalted Marches, so the chant of light is spread to all four corners of the world and the Maker will turn it into a paradise
3. Guilt complex - mankind is evil, demonstrated when Andraste was burned at the stake, and has to atone to the Maker

Qunari: same problem. That they have a totalitarian ideology too does not excuse the Chantry. Dalish: This is speculation, with no evidence in the game itself.

To me, it's about what is presented in the game. And the chantry religion is opposed to freedom and tolerance. As such, it could be labeled "evil". Its love is conditional - unless you do or believe as they say, you are the enemy.

If those are your conditions for the Chantry being "evil" then you must not have a very high opinion of religion in general. All religions are going to say "We're the right one," and most aren't going to say, "Everything in life right now is fine and dandy. You don't have to do anything to get into paradise, you're already there." And once again, their opposition to "freedom and tolerance" is entirely subjective. If mages were free to do as they wish, how well would the rest of the nation go? Just look at the Teventir Imperium to get your answer. Slavery, constant war with the qunari... sounds like a great place to live.

Bad way to make conclusions. That is like to say "We should not build roads. Just look how one person fell on road and hit his head on road and got killed." 

[jeffnindo4281]

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?

[moilami]

The RustMonster wrote...

 Alrighty folks. I know it's not the best, but it's the best I can do. For anyone who wants it, I made a pro-Chantray banner! Show your support for the greater good of all of Thedas by sporting one of these in your sig! And if anyone who can actually make one that looks professional, feel free!

I will support templars by bashing that helmet with heavy Dwarven war maul while asking "is there anybody there?"

[Darkeus]

The real gray choice in that quest is whether you kill Brother Genitivi to keep the ashes hidden or let him tell the Chantry.



Destroying the ashes or not is completely Black or White.

[jeffnindo4281]

Darkeus wrote...

The real gray choice in that quest is whether you kill Brother Genitivi to keep the ashes hidden or let him tell the Chantry.

Destroying the ashes or not is completely Black or White.

Good point. I wish my play through was more recent, so that I were better versed in the fine details.