338 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

The RustMonster wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas.

That's one of the most ridiculous, trivializing statements I've read here (and that's saying something, considering some of the people who post on this topic regularly).  You are conflating your vaguely defined experiences as the child of single mother with what is essentially life-long house arrest and dehumanization.  You honestly think that's a valid comparison?

Look, it was just an analogy, and it's late in my time zone. If you don't think it's a good comparison, fine by me. But the comparison still stands as 2 different kinds of people who are forced to make sacrifices and live lives some people might not consider "fair" just because of who they are.

Additionally, mages are not dehumanized. In fact, most mages probably live a more comfortable life than the average Ferelden. And as I keep reminding people, but no one seems to consider it a valid point, if a mage is deemed responsible enough they are allowed to leave the tower. Mages do not live a bad life in the tower. They are not beaten or abused. They are allowed to go about their business and lead happy lives. They're confined as a precaution, not as a punishment, and most of them really don't seem to care too much about it.

No. The solution is to put you into the tower to protect you of the mages you fear so much. 

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

Yes when the darkspawn came. The templars were the only ones protecting the villagers. Seems like everyone just picks the worst of the worst and then generalize everyone else to that. Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, Wynne? They all believe in the Chantry.

Soldiers were slaughtered before that by Darkspawn. Soldiers were protecting the villagers with a tactic called the best defense is offense. 

Obsessed mage killers were on the other hand unable to even deal with some bandits. So much about "protecting people" when the actual agenda is slay mages.

Oh well, but templars just suck.

[Zanallen]

Morroian wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Except it's not an unproven assertion. DAO proved to us that demon possessions happen, and that abominations are extremely dangerous. A little boy with next to no magical training is capable of destroying an entire village because he became an abomination. Taking precautionary measures helps everyone out in the long run, even if it doesn't seem fair at the time.

Except there is some proof in the game and lore. Rivain where mages consort with spirits freely. The Dalish.Haven. ALl groups that have mages and aren't overrun by abominations. 

Really? This is what you are using for an argument? We no very, very little about Rivain. For all we know, the country could be infested by blood mages who control the top level of govenrment. Yhe onlywe've been told is that the "witches" are respected and consort with fade spirits. As for the Dalish, their mages are, in fact, the leaders of the Dalish tribes. Plus, we only saw two tribes within the entirety of the game. That's two keepers and one of them was a crazy man who cursed an entire generation of people into being werewolves and gave himself immortality. Haven...Haven was populated by a crazed cult that worshipped a dragon and did blood sacrifices.

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Sareth Cousland wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

I still fail to see how the Chantry is "evil." Despite popular belief here, it's not an undeniable fact. Whether or not their treatment of mages is "totalitarian" is up for debate. I think something that most people forget is that most mages we've talked to feel eitehr apathetic or positive to the Chantry's prescence. If people are upset about the Exalted Marches treating the Dalish and Qunari poorly, I'm pretty sure the Qunari have started holy wars themselves. As for the Dalish, while I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure that they probably would have attacked the humans eventually if the Chantry hadn't done so first. It's not a matter of who's right or wrong, it's about who did it first. 

1. Spiritual blackmail - the maker is disappointed in mankind, men deserve to be left in the dark after Andraste was burned at the stake (by a few men)
2. Moral superiority - The chantry is, of course, the only "correct" religion. Others have to be destroyed in Exalted Marches, so the chant of light is spread to all four corners of the world and the Maker will turn it into a paradise
3. Guilt complex - mankind is evil, demonstrated when Andraste was burned at the stake, and has to atone to the Maker

Qunari: same problem. That they have a totalitarian ideology too does not excuse the Chantry. Dalish: This is speculation, with no evidence in the game itself.

To me, it's about what is presented in the game. And the chantry religion is opposed to freedom and tolerance. As such, it could be labeled "evil". Its love is conditional - unless you do or believe as they say, you are the enemy.

If those are your conditions for the Chantry being "evil" then you must not have a very high opinion of religion in general. All religions are going to say "We're the right one," and most aren't going to say, "Everything in life right now is fine and dandy. You don't have to do anything to get into paradise, you're already there." And once again, their opposition to "freedom and tolerance" is entirely subjective. If mages were free to do as they wish, how well would the rest of the nation go? Just look at the Teventir Imperium to get your answer. Slavery, constant war with the qunari... sounds like a great place to live.

Bad way to make conclusions. That is like to say "We should not build roads. Just look how one person fell on road and hit his head on road and got killed." 

Bad way to make conclusions that the entire Chantry is irredeemably evil.

Sick and corrupted chantry acts like Cult of Andraste, that is they refuse to give up with their blind obsession to slay mages. That is why cult of chantry must be destroyed so that something better can be built. It is almost like doing an amputation except that instead of just cutting the rotten limb you get a new better limb.

[jeffnindo4281]

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?

Its the ashes of the woman their whole faith is pretty much based off of. Divine or not its a symbol to them, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you.

They may consider it symbolic but that doesn't mean its true. People believe what they want, what makes them feel better regardless of reality. For all we know, those ashes could have belonged to a mage who dared to speak his or her honest thoughts to the wrong person in the wrong era.

I'm not interested in your pity, I want your arguments.

I don't believe a fable, no matter how widely accepted in a particular society in a particular period of time, justifies taking a life. How could Liliana and Wynne, party members since the start whom I got along with well, possibly feel justified in attempting to take my life?

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?

Its the ashes of the woman their whole faith is pretty much based off of. Divine or not its a symbol to them, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you.

I value more human lives than ashes. That's why I just destroy the ashes or rather take them for healing and research instead of letting them become yet one more artifact in which name can be used to kill innocent people.

You on the other hand are free to value ashes more than humans.

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?

Its the ashes of the woman their whole faith is pretty much based off of. Divine or not its a symbol to them, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you.

They may consider it symbolic but that doesn't mean its true. People believe what they want, what makes them feel better regardless of reality. For all we know, those ashes could have belonged to a mage who dared to speak his or her honest thoughts to the wrong person in the wrong era.

I'm not interested in your pity, I want your arguments.

I don't believe a fable, no matter how widely accepted in a particular society in a particular period of time, justifies taking a life. How could Liliana and Wynne, party members since the start whom I got along with well, possibly feel justified in attempting to take my life?

And he answered your question. Whether or not the ashes are actually divine is of no consequence when it comes to the faith of the people. Those ashes belonged to the person who pretty much created their faith. Leiliana and Wynne are devout believes in the Maker and Andraste. It would be like if someone came along, dug up the corpse of George Washington and proceeded to crap on it. Certain people would be understandably pissed, no?

Modifié par Zanallen, 16 février 2011 - 05:30 .

[jeffnindo4281]

Zanallen wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

The Water God wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Generic Guy wrote...

Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread.

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?

Its the ashes of the woman their whole faith is pretty much based off of. Divine or not its a symbol to them, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you.

They may consider it symbolic but that doesn't mean its true. People believe what they want, what makes them feel better regardless of reality. For all we know, those ashes could have belonged to a mage who dared to speak his or her honest thoughts to the wrong person in the wrong era.

I'm not interested in your pity, I want your arguments.

I don't believe a fable, no matter how widely accepted in a particular society in a particular period of time, justifies taking a life. How could Liliana and Wynne, party members since the start whom I got along with well, possibly feel justified in attempting to take my life?

And he answered your question. Whether or not the ashes are actually divine is of no consequence when it comes to the faith of the people. Those ashes belonged to the person who pretty much created their faith. Leiliana and Wynne are devout believes in the Maker and Andraste. It would be like if someone came along, dug up the corpse of George Washington and proceeded to crap on it. Certain people would be understandably pissed, no?

Anger is justifiable but not taking a life! I hope I never become so blinded by dogma.

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

The Water God wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

Yes when the darkspawn came. The templars were the only ones protecting the villagers. Seems like everyone just picks the worst of the worst and then generalize everyone else to that. Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, Wynne? They all believe in the Chantry.

Soldiers were slaughtered before that by Darkspawn. Soldiers were protecting the villagers with a tactic called the best defense is offense. 

Obsessed mage killers were on the other hand unable to even deal with some bandits. So much about "protecting people" when the actual agenda is slay mages.

Oh well, but templars just suck.

If you talk to the Templar in charge he tells you that he had already chased them off once today, and is frustrated that they returned. Then goes on to say that he'll send some men to get rid of them.

Morrigan asks the Templar what he would do if she was an apostate he replys "I don't even want to think about such things right now." So it seems his actual agenda isn't slaying mages at the moment......so yeah.....

And the soliders are all dead......

So templars are willing to hunt child morrigan to great lenghts in Corcari Wilds but they are not interested to try hunt real killer bandits posing a concrete threat to the villagers. Just tells how obsessed templars are.

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

Anger is justifiable but not taking a life! I hope I never become so blinded by dogma.

And its nice that you can look at the situation so objectively as an outsider.

But by destroying the ashes, aren't you risking Arl Eamon's life? The whole point of tracking down the ashes in the first place is to cure Arl Eamon so he can help you in the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Zanallen, 16 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[Zanallen]

moilami wrote...

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

The Water God wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

You guys know there's a lot more to the Chantry than policing mages right? Its the biggest organied religion in Thedas.

Yes when the darkspawn came. The templars were the only ones protecting the villagers. Seems like everyone just picks the worst of the worst and then generalize everyone else to that. Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, Wynne? They all believe in the Chantry.

Soldiers were slaughtered before that by Darkspawn. Soldiers were protecting the villagers with a tactic called the best defense is offense. 

Obsessed mage killers were on the other hand unable to even deal with some bandits. So much about "protecting people" when the actual agenda is slay mages.

Oh well, but templars just suck.

If you talk to the Templar in charge he tells you that he had already chased them off once today, and is frustrated that they returned. Then goes on to say that he'll send some men to get rid of them.

Morrigan asks the Templar what he would do if she was an apostate he replys "I don't even want to think about such things right now." So it seems his actual agenda isn't slaying mages at the moment......so yeah.....

And the soliders are all dead......

So templars are willing to hunt child morrigan to great lenghts in Corcari Wilds but they are not interested to try hunt real killer bandits posing a concrete threat to the villagers. Just tells how obsessed templars are.

The templars in Lothering are swamped with refugees. At least they are trying to do something. Loghain pushes his troops right on through without even leaving a squad to help slow the Darkspawn down.

[jeffnindo4281]

[quote]Zanallen wrote...

[quote]jeffnindo4281 wrote...

[quote]Zanallen wrote...

[quote]jeffnindo4281 wrote...

[quote]The Water God wrote...

[quote]jeffnindo4281 wrote...

[quote]The Water God wrote...

[quote]jeffnindo4281 wrote...

[quote]The Water God wrote...


[quote]jeffnindo4281 wrote...

[quote]Generic Guy wrote...

[quote]Silvanend wrote...

Can you honestly trust people with that kind of power to not use it selfishly or evily? Such power corrupts minds. None of you here could honestly say that if you were a mage, you would not use your "gifts" to your own advantage and prestige. Mages should be allowed to live, but the Chantry is needed as a NECESSITY to keep them in check and prevent another Tevinter Imperium from rising. I can't believe you would honestly support the slavery and oppression of the Imperium, which is exactly what you are supporting by helping the Mages free themselves.[/quote]

I agree with you, it is sad that Bioware goes through this trouble to make a Gray vs. Gray situation and everyone else wants a black vs. white retread. [/quote]

Many of the choices in Origins were black and white. The Sacred Ashes quest jumps to mind immediately. Good parties preserve the ashes and bad parties, with bad and selfish characters clearly without a moral compass, would see the relic destroyed.

[/quote]

Yes is it a wonder why wynne and Leliana try to kill the warden for defiling the ashes? Destroying the ashes is totally evil. Its the greatest find in the history of Fereldan and a symbol to who believe in the maker, and the only reason the warden destroys it is because "I hatez the chantry!!!!!!!!!!11"

First off the ashes and the Chantry are two seperate things!!! Don't ****** on someone elses beliefs just because you think Templars are evil. Secondly destroying the ashes isn't really that much of a blow to the Chantry, most of them just think the urn is a myth, and the only thing it does is keep them from getting their hands on it. Other than that its does nothing to them.[/quote]

What proof is there that the Ashes are in fact divine? It's my understanding that Oghren tells the Warden that there is much lyrium in the surrounding caves (it's been a while since I played). Destroying the ashes means people wont flood the 'sacred place' only to be driven mad by lyrium exposure.

Far from evil, I would call that compassion for my fellow man/elf/dwarf.

It's much more likely that the ashes are a natural/magical phenomenon than a divine suspension of the natural/magical order.

[/quote]

Listen, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not they are DIVINE. It has to do with you are destroying the ashes who had freed her people from the hands of the evil Trevinter. You're mocking and disrespecting the ashes of a great woman who had been put to rest. Thats like taking the body of a famous leader (Say Abraham Lincoln) and just thowing it off the top of a tall building just to see if he'll go splat!

The fact that its magical is questionable. But the fact that its the ashes of a great woman is fact.[/quote]

If the ashes aren't divine, then what is the religious characters' interest in them?
[/quote]

Its the ashes of the woman their whole faith is pretty much based off of. Divine or not its a symbol to them, if you can't understand that I feel sorry for you.[/quote]

They may consider it symbolic but that doesn't mean its true. People believe what they want, what makes them feel better regardless of reality. For all we know, those ashes could have belonged to a mage who dared to speak his or her honest thoughts to the wrong person in the wrong era.

I'm not interested in your pity, I want your arguments.

I don't believe a fable, no matter how widely accepted in a particular society in a particular period of time, justifies taking a life. How could Liliana and Wynne, party members since the start whom I got along with well, possibly feel justified in attempting to take my life?

[/quote]

And he answered your question. Whether or not the ashes are actually divine is of no consequence when it comes to the faith of the people. Those ashes belonged to the person who pretty much created their faith. Leiliana and Wynne are devout believes in the Maker and Andraste. It would be like if someone came along, dug up the corpse of George Washington and proceeded to crap on it. Certain people would be understandably pissed, no?

[/quote]

Anger is justifiable but not taking a life! I hope I never become so blinded by dogma.

[/quote]

And its nice that you can look at the situation so objectively as an outsider.

But by destroying the ashes, aren't you risking Arl Eamon's life? The whole point of tracking down the ashes in the first place is to cure Arl Eamon so he can help you in the Landsmeet.
[/quote]

If I remember correctly, you get the option to take a sample for the Arl before destroying the ashes? Again, it's been a while since I played.

In my save, I preserved the ashes purely due to game mechanics. I wanted to keep Wynne and Liliana in my party, and I wasn't presented an option to take the ashes to, say, the Circle for study. And I wanted to play a 'good' Warden. I guess Good and Skeptical are mutually exclusive in this case.

[Super_Cat]

Ahhh, stop embedding so many quotes within quotes within quotes!



But I'll admit this debate is pretty interesting.

[jeffnindo4281]

I apologize, I don't have much experience with forum etiquette.

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

If I remember correctly, you get the option to take a sample for the Arl before destroying the ashes? Again, it's been a while since I played.

In my save, I preserved the ashes purely due to game mechanics. I wanted to keep Wynne and Liliana in my party, and I wasn't presented an option to take the ashes to, say, the Circle for study. And I wanted to play a 'good' Warden. I guess Good and Skeptical are mutually exclusive in this case.

I just don't see what the point of destroying the ashes is. You gain nothing from it really, except for helping a known group of crazy cultists.

But this is getting off topic. So...

[Riona45]

The RustMonster wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...
Growing up the child of a single mother I had to make sacrifices others in my position didn't have to. But inherently because of who I am and how my life played out beyond my control, there are choices I have to make with no better option. That's how it is for mages. They have to sacrifice living a normal life in Thedas.

That's one of the most ridiculous, trivializing statements I've read here (and that's saying something, considering some of the people who post on this topic regularly).  You are conflating your vaguely defined experiences as the child of single mother with what is essentially life-long house arrest and dehumanization.  You honestly think that's a valid comparison?

Look, it was just an analogy, and it's late in my time zone.

I guess you agree that it's pretty indefensible, because you're making excuses for it instead (it was "only" an analogy, and it was late, so you don't care too much).

If you don't think it's a good comparison, fine by me.

It's fine by me too, because I stand by what I said.   

But the comparison still stands as 2 different kinds of people who are forced to make sacrifices and live lives some people might not consider "fair" just because of who they are.

No, it was a terrible statement to make.

Additionally, mages are not dehumanized.

I disagree. 

And as I keep reminding people, but no one seems to consider it a valid point, if a mage is deemed responsible enough they are allowed to leave the tower.

If you need permission to leave the tower, it's still basically house arrest.  And of course, when you leave you are expected to come right back eventually, except under special circumstances (ie. joining the Wardens).

Modifié par Riona45, 16 février 2011 - 05:53 .

[Riona45]

Zanallen wrote...

I just don't see what the point of destroying the ashes is. You gain nothing from it really, except for helping a known group of crazy cultists.

But this is getting off topic. So...

Don't you need to defile the ashes to get the Reaver specialization?

I'm not saying it's an awesome idea, but if that's true, it also means you do gain something from it.

[jeffnindo4281]

From the Dragon Age Wiki:

"A possible explanation for the Ashes' seemingly miraculous powers of healing is provided by Oghren. Lyrium veins run deep within the caverns in which the Urn is housed, and thus it's constant exposure to them could have infused the remains with magical power."


Destroying the ashes prevents flocks of deluded people, apparently willing to kill for their beliefs 'before' their minds are warped from Lyrium ore exposure, from being subjected to prolonged Lyrium ore exposure.

Modifié par jeffnindo4281, 16 février 2011 - 05:57 .

[Riona45]

Zanallen wrote...
But by destroying the ashes, aren't you risking Arl Eamon's life? The whole point of tracking down the ashes in the first place is to cure Arl Eamon so he can help you in the Landsmeet.

The PC always takes a pinch of the ashes before deciding what to do with it.  Arl Eamon is essentially safe as the plot demands.

[Zanallen]

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

From the Dragon Age Wiki:

A possible explanation for the Ashes' seemingly miraculous powers of healing is provided by Oghren. Lyrium veins run deep within the caverns in which the Urn is housed, and thus it's constant exposure to them could have infused the remains with magical power.

Destroying the ashes prevents flocks of deluded people, apparently willing to kill for their beliefs before their minds are warped from Lyrium ore exposure, from getting Lyrium ore exposure.

Or you could, I don't know, just not tell anyone it was there? Destroying the ashes won't stop people from visiting the cave. People would still go because its the place where the ashes were, the place were the ashes of one of the Chantry's holiest figures had rested before they were destroyed.

And yes, within the game's mechanics, that is the only way to gain the reaver specialization. Its still a rather bogus move.

[Riona45]

The Water God wrote...
 Alistair, Zevran, Leliana, Wynne? They all believe in the Chantry.

Not really...Alistair believes in the Maker but if you actually listen to his dialogue you can tell he doesn't necessarily buy what the Chantry is selling (as an organization).  Leliana also believes in the Maker but her beliefs about him are heterodox.  Wynne specifically tells Leliana that she is not especially religious and doesn't worry too much about a "distant god."  And Zevran...that amoral assassin struck you as a pious individual?

[jeffnindo4281]

Zanallen wrote...

jeffnindo4281 wrote...

From the Dragon Age Wiki:

A possible explanation for the Ashes' seemingly miraculous powers of healing is provided by Oghren. Lyrium veins run deep within the caverns in which the Urn is housed, and thus it's constant exposure to them could have infused the remains with magical power.

Destroying the ashes prevents flocks of deluded people, apparently willing to kill for their beliefs before their minds are warped from Lyrium ore exposure, from getting Lyrium ore exposure.

Or you could, I don't know, just not tell anyone it was there? Destroying the ashes won't stop people from visiting the cave. People would still go because its the place where the ashes were, the place were the ashes of one of the Chantry's holiest figures had rested before they were destroyed.

And yes, within the game's mechanics, that is the only way to gain the reaver specialization. Its still a rather bogus move.

And let the next party that comes along make off with this reveared amorphous symbol, divine or otherwise? Their likely being unaware of the long term physiological effects it may have on them? 

How is that responsible?

Modifié par jeffnindo4281, 16 février 2011 - 06:05 .

[Riona45]

Zanallen wrote...
Or you could, I don't know, just not tell anyone it was there?

True, although in the game that's only an option if you are willing to casually throw a knife into Brother Genitivi's head.

And yes, within the game's mechanics, that is the only way to gain the reaver specialization. Its still a rather bogus move.

Maybe, but the point was that you do gain something from it, contrary to what you said.  Maybe the PC simply desires power.